Classics and the Western Canon discussion

In the spirit of Aeneas: What god, O muses produced these nominees for our second read of 2022? Breathe fire into this discussion, muses, and sing of the praises of each and why we should vote for them when the poll goes up next week.

Dead Souls by Nikolai Gogol

Madame Bovary by Gustave Flaubert

To the Lighthouse by Virginia Woolf

Silas Marner by George Eliot

The Human Condition by Hannah Arendt

Whoohoo! The Human Condition. Love to read that one, but first I need to prime myself -- pushups, run a few miles each day, protein drinks.

Silas Marner, read it, loved it, want to read it again.

Madame Bovary, same.

Dead Souls, isn't this the one without an ending?

To the Lighthouse, don't know enough to comment.

When are we going to read Middlemarch?

Good list! My top two votes from this list would be To the Lighthouse, and The Human Condition. Either of them feels like they might be the right book after the Aeneid...

I have read and enjoyed the middle three, but I've not yet read the ones by Gogol and Arendt.

To the Lighthouse is beautiful in my opinion and, with her stream of consciousness technique, certainly complex enough to spur deep discussion. I imagine that not everyone will like it though. Woolf is not to everyone's taste. Personally, I love it. And I would love to re-read it slowly, with deep discussion.

Silas Marner was a great book (as is pretty much everything by George Eliot).

Madame Bovary is a masterpiece with rich and deep characterization. I imagine it generating good discussion too.

As far as Dead Souls, I haven't read that one yet, though Gogol's "The Overcoat" and "The Nose" were interesting and quite unique in approach. I'd love to read Dead Souls!

I can't comment on the Arendt one because I only know her work by reputation.

Xan wrote: "Dead Souls, isn't this the one without an ending?
"

It is unfinished as Gogol envisioned it, and Part One ends mid-sentence, which makes it appear even more unfinished than it actually is. Gogol designed Dead Souls along the same lines as the Divine Comedy, but only Part One was really completed. The second part exists in fragments, which some editors leave out entirely.

The only ones I haven't read are Dead Souls and The Human Condition, so either one gets my vote.

Jen wrote: "The only ones I haven't read are Dead Souls and The Human Condition, so either one gets my vote."

Jen, does that mean that you don't consider any of the others worthy of re-reading? (I ask in memory of the years of Eman "teaching" me the values of reading again.)

I re-read Pride and Prejudice for about the 14th time when we did it a few months ago. But one is rather limited in how many books can be consumed by lifespan and the need to sleep at least occasionally. I'm also a maximalist and neophile when it comes to my literary consumption, so I don't re-read a whole lot.

Madame Bovary I read not too long ago (well, in 1995). Woolf is not to my taste. I might be ready for a re-read of Silas Marner. The Human Condition would be broadening. But I think I'll vote for Dead Souls: the time is right for trying to understand the Russian mind.

Incidentally, Gogol was born in Poltava Oblast, a village about half-way between Kharkiv and Kyiv, Ukraine. His first works were inspired by Ukrainian folk tales.

I have not read The Human Condition.

To the Lighthouse. It's short, it's simple. and there would be nothing to discuss?
No, it's amazing how much is packed into a short, not simple novel. Virginia's brilliance shimmers through the glass.

Roger wrote: ".... Woolf is not to my taste....."

One of the books I wonder whether is "classic" enough to consider here sometime is Mimesis: The Representation of Reality in Western Literature (1942) by Erich Auerbach. I found his analysis of To the Lighthouse , in his last chapter, to be particularly insightful about what VW is accomplishing with words and how that differs (and is continuous with) from what came before in literature. I know reading Auerbach may be somewhat contrary to St. John's read "the originals", but somehow Mimesis also seems to me to an "original" in its own ways.

I've read and reread Gogol's stories with immense enjoyment, and once performed in a production of that great comedy The Inspector General (btw, if you have a chance, check out the old movie w/ Danny Kaye). Somehow, I never got round to Dead Souls, and I think this is probably the time to read a satire on Russian life written by a Ukrainian.

I, too, found Auerbach's Mimesis a fantastic voyage through literature. He led me to VW as well as to the other works he discusses. I am told he wrote it in exile without the notes he had left behind. Very good coverage of The Western Canon.

Re: Gogol, sort of. Another Ukrainian writer, though his language was Russian, was Bogolyubov.
The White Guard is set in Odessa. (They spell it now "Odesa".) My grandfather, as well as many other grandfathers, to avoid conscription, emigrated from there ca. 1900. It had a large, vibrant Jewish community.

Poll is up.
https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/2...

Voting started on: Mar 23, 2022 12:00AM PDT
Ends at: Mar 30, 2022 11:59PM PDT

One vote for Virginia "Lark" Woolf's To the Lighthouse.

The time has passed to vote early, but you can still vote often. Be sure and vote for the book you want to read with the group next.

https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/2...

The poll ends: Mar 30, 2022 11:59PM PDT

I plan to join in on whichever read is chosen. All good choices!

now I am considering changing my intense longing for Virginia to a world-political reality check with Ukrainian Gogol's Dead Souls.

that's encouraging. i read it a long time ago before I knew even a little about the region and the politics.

I don't know how to change my vote. Help please. Before Midnight today Wednesday. TIA.

Sam, go back to the poll and click on the link change your vote. You can then change your vote. I'm not encouraging you to do so. I'm sticking with Virginia :)

Tamara wrote: "Sam, go back to the poll and click on the link change your vote. You can then change your vote. I'm not encouraging you to do so. I'm sticking with Virginia :)"

I'm sticking with Virginia too, though I wouldn't mind reading either one. :)

They are both pretty short, so I'll do that, read both (again) and leave my vote as is. I'll be able to participate in either discussion. Still have book 12 in Virgil, in the two versions, I am reading. Thanks.

To the Lighthouse is our winner and will be our next read of 2022. The discussion will begin April 20th. Happy reading, everyone!

R	W	W%	Book
8	19	40%	To the Lighthouse
7	12	26%	The Human Condition
7	12	26%	Dead Souls
2	4	9%	Silas Marner

SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT

I am delighted that a woman-authored novel has won the poll. I am even more delighted to welcome Susan as our guest moderator for To the Lighthouse.

Susan has been an active member of this group since 2014 and has consistently contributed to discussions with her comments and observations. I’m sure she will do a wonderful job moderating the discussion. She will be posting the reading schedule some time next week. The discussion of To the Lighthouse will begin on April 20.

It has been years since I last read the novel and am looking forward to re-reading it. I have no doubt I will get a lot more out of it this time around since the quality of the discussions from the members here is always enlightening. I hope all of you will consider participating even if you didn’t vote for the novel.

Our sincere thanks go to Susan. We wish her every success and look forward to the discussion. Please join me in welcoming Susan as our guest moderator.

Bienvenidos, Susan.

Thanks for your guest moderating Susan, and I'm very much looking forward to the next read!

Thanks, Tamara, Sam, and Greg. Looking forward to discussing To the Lighthouse in the group. I’ve been a fan of this novel since I read it as a young college student, and each time through, there’s more to discover.

Susan wrote: "Thanks, Tamara, Sam, and Greg. Looking forward to discussing To the Lighthouse in the group. I’ve been a fan of this novel since I read it as a young college student, and each time through, there’s..."

Susan -- welcome to moderating on Western Canon and thank you for taking on this group and To the Lighthouse. So glad to see the group explore Woolf together. I know that Eman would cringe at this, but I will definitely go back to Mimesis: The Representation of Reality in Western Literature and take a look at Erich Auerbach's comments about the complicated lenses through which Woolf invites the reader to view the elements of the story being told, lenses that explore how humans process the information around them that informs their thoughts?

I also hope we reconsider Arendt and Gogol in the reads to follow. I don't know Arendt's work, but I perceive it can inform the times in which we live. I don't happen to "like" Gogol's Dead Souls , but I would hope to do what I see other seemingly astute readers suggesting: preface reading with some of his other short stories. Somehow, I feel as if those "Russian minds" record the world from perspectives uniquely different than "English minds," but maybe I have just been watching too many episodes of "The Crown" recently (in a period of reading supplanted by video ). Still, that was definitely one of my feelings in our last sequence of Dostoevsky and Austen.

In the meantime, time to find that copy of Woolf....and to be brought close to what is forged in the intimacy of family dynamics.

Delightful news!

To The Lighthouse is on my reading list since time immemorial. I'm not sure why I've never picked it up, maybe I am just afraid of Virginia Woolf...

Hi, I’m Dee, I’ve been a silent and non-participating member of your group for a couple of years. I’ve had lots of other reading commitments up until now, though my overall project is largely in line with this group’s. I’d love to start reading along with you all, starting with dear old Virginia Woolf.

Welcome, Dee. We're glad you'll be joining us.
We have two weeks of short interim reads beginning April 6 when I will post a link to the short story. And the discussion of To the Lighthouse will begin on April 20. You're welcome to jump in with your comments and thoughts any time.

Lily wrote: "Susan wrote: "Thanks, Tamara, Sam, and Greg. Looking forward to discussing To the Lighthouse in the group. I’ve been a fan of this novel since I read it as a young college student, and each time th..."

Runners-up in the polling should automatically go on the following ballot. The votes for them clearly show more interest in them than in a random selection from the to-read list.

Roger wrote: "Runners-up in the polling should automatically go on the following ballot. The votes for them clearly show more interest in them than in a random selection from the to-read list...."

That logic probably often holds, but doesn't always suggest what will emerge as the choice from this rich list of possibilities....at least my sense of watching these through the years.

Roger wrote: "Runners-up in the polling should automatically go on the following ballot. The votes for them clearly show more interest in them than in a random selection from the to-read list."

I like this idea!

I've tried to read 'To the Lighthouse' twice and each time it made my brain hurt. Seriously. The stream of consciousness style is unintelligible to me.

I’m sorry you’ve had bad experiences with To the Lighthouse, Kerstin. Perhaps reading and discussing sections with the group would be helpful if you want to tackle it again?

If you decide to try again with us, here are a couple suggestions that might be of use.
1) Make a list of the characters as you read. Woolf plunges the reader into a busy house with the ten members of the Ramsay family, their guests, and servants, and it can be a challenge to keep everyone straight.
2) Try listening to an audio version along with/instead of reading. I find this very helpful with complex books to listen and read. There are a couple different narrators available; I like the Juliet Stevenson version.

Audiobook isn't a bad idea.

I think my difficulty lays in the fact that my mind isn't nearly as chaotic as Woolf portrays consciousness. I have no reference point at all. The characters jump all over the place in disjointed thoughts and impressions in rapid succession with little or no focus. It's like a film going on hyper speed with the result of making you nauseated. I have to admit I never made it past page 30. It was way too disorienting.

I'll follow the discussion a bit and see how others react.

Listening to the audiobook is a great suggestion, Susan.

James Joyce said anyone could understand Finnegans Wake if it were read aloud (preferably in an Irish accent.) That's a wee exaggeration, but I've tried it and it does in fact help!

@Kerstin have you tried to read the English text or a German translation?

@Thomas I'm looking forward to the discussion regarding Woolf's vs. Joyce's approach to the stream of consciousness.

Best advice: Susan wrote, "but I will definitely go back to Mimesis: The Representation of Reality in Western Literature and take a look at Erich Auerbach's comments about the complicated lenses through which Woolf invites the reader to view the elements of the story being told, lenses that explore how humans process the information around them that informs their thoughts?"

I second that. Mimesis on Woolf is a great aynergy.

Emil wrote: "@Kerstin have you tried to read the English text or a German translation?

The original English. As a rule I only do German translations if the work was originally written in a third language, for example when we've read Dostoevsky. Though oddly enough, I've found the English translation of the Aeneid more intelligible than the German...which I still have to finish, lol...

Sam wrote: "Best advice: Susan wrote, ..."

??

@Lily. Do those question marks mean that Susan's advice did not get through? If so I'll restate that Eric Auerbach's "Mimesis: The Representation of Reality in Western Literature" is a fabulous journey through The Western Canon. He includes a worthwhile chapter on Woolf's "To The Lighthouse."

Sam, I think what happened is that Goodreads truncated the previous speakers in a confusing way, and Lily was clarifying that she recommends that section in Mimesis, too.

It wasn’t me, since I’ve never read that chapter, but I’ve put it on my list to read once we finish reading To the Lighthouse together.

Susan wrote: "It wasn’t me, since I’ve never read that chapter, but I’ve put it on my list to read once we finish reading To the Lighthouse together...."

Susan -- Thx for catching that I was busting Sam's reading chops! Like Sam, I'll be so bold as to suggest reading that chapter of Mimesis as one STARTS TTL! Especially since you have read the Welty comments. (I haven't been able to find that edition so far in my library system.) And especially after having looked at Auerbach after reading The Decameron. The evolution over time of humankind observing/recording the world with words? And I do still agree with the St. John's College "just read the text" attitude towards tackling any book.

Lily, I’m saving the Welty foreword and the Mimesis chapter until after reading and discussing To the Lighthouse, which is what I usually do with forewords and criticism. I get so much more from them after I’ve read the book (plus no spoilers). I would personally encourage others to do the same.

As Virginia Woolf says herself about literary critics in her essay “How to Read a Book,” “But they are only able to help us if we come to them laden with questions and suggestions won honestly in the course of our own reading.” So maybe we should call it the St John’s College and Virginia Woolf “just read the text” attitude ;)

Hope you can find a copy of the Eudora Welty foreword. I’m surprised your library doesn’t have a copy of the standard text from Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, which should have it. BTW, I checked, and that foreword is not included in Welty’s book of essays “The Eye of the Story,” although the collection contains several other short essays on Woolf.

@Lily, you rang?... a matter o' fact, I just reread the Mimesis section, "The Brown Stocking", ahem. not a forward, not a critique, no spoilers. VW herself provides the only spoiler with the title. And Auerbach is not an easy read either. He doesn't do plot, or character, or anything but his stated goal, the representation of reality. I love him; he's unique. But moving on to the next slide....