࿐ྂPro-Life࿐ྂ discussion

Which arguments do you think work best to convince people of the unborn's right to life?

At least in my opinion, it's extremely important to stay on the topic of whether preborn babies are human. It's okay to answer other questions people have, but if someone admits that preborns are human, then they're admitting that every abortion kills a human being. I think that will make people think more.

I think it's important not to get up in their face no matter how unreasonable they are and to talk to them with logic instead of emotion.
You know it's wrong they don't, your job is to get them to think for themselves and find the truth.
So ask them questions like:

- When does life begin?
At what point is it a baby? is it only a baby when you want it to be?


- If it's only alive after it can sustain its own life, wouldn't that disqualify a newborn or toddler who is completely reliant on its parents for everything?

- Is it your body if it has its own distinct and separate DNA?
And if that makes a new human, shouldn't the baby (or fetus, which is Latin for baby) get the same rights that every other person gets?

And this last one was just a random quote I found really insightful and true.
- Everyone who supported slavery was free, everyone who supports abortion is alive.

Are morning-after pills okay in case of a rape?

Rose (AKA the crazy weird redhead) wrote: "I think it's important not to get up in their face no matter how unreasonable they are and to talk to them with logic instead of emotion.
You know it's wrong they don't, your job is to get them to..."

XD At first I thought you said we should get "up in their face." I was going to be like, no we shouldn't lol.

Lilyyy wrote: "Rose (AKA the crazy weird redhead) wrote: "I think it's important not to get up in their face no matter how unreasonable they are and to talk to them with logic instead of emotion.
You know it's w..."

LOL Yea, definitely don't do that! XD

Fortissimo wrote: "Are morning-after pills okay in case of a rape?"

I did want to point out, though, that the birth control pill would make the uterine lining uninhabitable, so a fertilized egg / embryo would have no place to stay. That's basically an abortion since conception already happened. No one talks about that for some reason.

Lilyyy wrote: "Fortissimo wrote: "Are morning-after pills okay in case of a rape?"

I did want to point out, though, that the birth control pill would make the uterine lining uninhabitable, so a fertilized egg / ..."

Man, so pregnancy would pretty much be inevitable after a rape, if at the specific time. :/

Fortissimo wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Fortissimo wrote: "Are morning-after pills okay in case of a rape?"

I did want to point out, though, that the birth control pill would make the uterine lining uninhabitable, so a fe..."

I don't know what the statistics are when it comes to pregnancy after intercourse, but less than 1% of abortions actually happen because of rape or incest. Some estimates are 1.5%, but that's still a very, very low number. The vast majority of women who go in for abortions chose to have sex. It's a heartbreaking decision after rape, but for women who consented, they should honestly be taking responsibility for their actions.

Lilyyy wrote: "Fortissimo wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Fortissimo wrote: "Are morning-after pills okay in case of a rape?"

I did want to point out, though, that the birth control pill would make the uterine lining uni..."

I certainly agree, and I think it very shameful people do such. But, I wouldn't just "do it", it would have to be a rape for me to get pregnant, so I'm always looking over my shoulder and clutching my pepper spray from fear. XD

Fortissimo wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Fortissimo wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Fortissimo wrote: "Are morning-after pills okay in case of a rape?"

I did want to point out, though, that the birth control pill would make the ute..."

Oh, got it. Ofc you wouldn't! But as long as you don't go places alone a lot or hang around bad people, you should be okay!

Lilyyy wrote: "Fortissimo wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Fortissimo wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Fortissimo wrote: "Are morning-after pills okay in case of a rape?"

I did want to point out, though, that the birth control pill..."

XD I do hope I will!!

The Jesus Fandom wrote: "Which arguments do you think work best to convince people of the unborn's right to life?"

I feel like it's kind of hard to convince people otherwise sometimes because a lot of the time people are so caught up in their own beliefs that they won't listen to what people around them say, or even just common sense. And to be honest when talking to someone who isn't a Christian, maybe the best way is to just lead by example and show them how important and beautiful life is rather then trying to have a verbal battle with them, however when talking to Christians who truly understand who God is and love him and especially in the case of rape, let them know that God can redeem anything and if they choose to have an abortion at anytime they are missing out on a a way that God could grow them through that hard time and redeem that very sad thing in their lives.

Eloria wrote: "The Jesus Fandom wrote: "Which arguments do you think work best to convince people of the unborn's right to life?"

I feel like it's kind of hard to convince people otherwise sometimes because a lo..."

That's beautiful, Eloria. I've usually taken a different approach to the abortion debate because a religious one is generally not very successful. It's important to be godly and to show God's value (and your value) for life, but I've generally found logical, down-to-earth arguments are more thought-provoking. Don't get me wrong, some people really do need to know how valuable their life and others' lives are, but one also doesn't have to be Christian to be pro-life (although I would argue that the Christian worldview is most pro-life, for all life). I don't keep count, but I think I've had around a hundred online conversations around abortion in the past two years. I didn't become pro-life because I began a relationship with God, but He did show me to the truth about abortion. I used to be loosely pro-choice, but what convicted me the most were the abortion procedures, which are, tbh, barbaric. I ask the same questions to people who are pro-choice that I ended up having to ask myself when I first started thinking and researching abortion.

Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "The Jesus Fandom wrote: "Which arguments do you think work best to convince people of the unborn's right to life?"

I feel like it's kind of hard to convince people otherwise sometim..."

I suppose also it depends on who you are talking to, some people are more willing to hear than others. Sometimes I see the pro-life posts on insta and feel like they are just preaching to the choir(it does make me so sad seeing how developed some of the babies are its so horrific). I mean for someone who isn't a Christian I can kind of understand why they would be pro-choice. If someone is living for themselves then I can completely see why they would think that abortion is ok. And honestly I've only ever had one conversation about abortion before with a pro-choice non-christian (and they were not budging at all) and I'm not really one to get into arguments with people online. So I don't have much experience in this field.

Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "The Jesus Fandom wrote: "Which arguments do you think work best to convince people of the unborn's right to life?"

I feel like it's kind of hard to convince people ot..."

Oh, yeah, that's true. There's no sense at all in talking to someone who doesn't want to listen. Many of the most outspoken pro-choicers aren't willing to hear your pov at all (reminds me of Planned Parenthood's director, who basically said she didn't care when life began). But lots of normal people are compassionate and would care if they were shown the truth.

Examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJUA6...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70ivN...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re3Ym...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HiqS...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItVz0...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ22U...

Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "The Jesus Fandom wrote: "Which arguments do you think work best to convince people of the unborn's right to life?"

I feel like it's kind of hard to con..."

It's really interesting watching those videos because it seems like most people(or at lease to people in the video) don't really like the idea of abortion and they don't seem to know the process and seem really shook when they find out what actually happens. I think that people should become more aware of how violent it actually is.

Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "The Jesus Fandom wrote: "Which arguments do you think work best to convince people of the unborn's right to life?"

I feel like it's kind..."

Yeah, that's true! Honestly, though, it's easy to assume something is okay when it seems like the majority of people are okay with it. People should definitely know about the procedures, but the thing is, if you just do a Google search of the abortion procedures, most of the videos and websites will act like there's nothing in the uterus but tissues and blood.

See this video for example. People seem to believe it for some reason, but any human being who even gives this even a little bit of thought and research will know that there is a embryo/fetus in the womb when a woman is pregnant. Why doesn't the video show the actual preborn that's being killed? Because it's barbaric. People just don't want to know those sorts of things, and it's incredibly sad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWKqe...

Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "The Jesus Fandom wrote: "Which arguments do you think work best to convince people of the unborn's right to life?"

I feel..."

Yes! It seems like nowadays people will believe anything. They see or read one shocking or seemingly wonderful thing and believe it just with a snap of their fingers, not even bothering to look and see what other sources are saying. And part of that is probably with the case of abortion. They've been told it's a good thing, they don't do extensive research and end up supporting something so horrific and disturbing.

Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "The Jesus Fandom wrote: "Which arguments do you think work best to convince people of the unborn's right to..."

Yes. Or on the other hand, they only look at sources or arguments that back up their thinking. Obviously it's difficult to consider the other side and listen to the other side, but it's almost uncanny how deceptive some people can be. Take the UCSF study on abortion for example. It says that 99% of women do not regret their abortions. It looks extremely convincing, and pro-choicers use it all the time to try to shut women down when they speak up about their mental health, their regrets, their pain, etc. after abortion. Most people will not look deeper into the study, but if you do, you'll find that 1) the study was funded by multiple pro-abortion groups, 2) of the original ~1,000 or so women at the start of the study, only ~50% were interviewed again 5 years later, and 3) a separate, federally-funded study found 65% higher risk of clinical depression in women who had abortions, after controlling for age, race, education, marital status, history of divorce, income, and prior psychiatric state. Not only that, but according to the NIH, women who abort are five times more likely to be involved in drug and alcohol abuse. That UCSF study is just pure propaganda.

Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "The Jesus Fandom wrote: "Which arguments do you think work best to convince people of the un..."

yes! thats so true! If someone is looking up a particular topic they may turn a blind eye to all the articles and arguments against their beliefs. And of course it makes sense that 99% of women would say that they don't have regrets if it's like the week after, and can you imagine the guilt and sadness some of them might feel? It seems like it would be pretty easy to say that they didn't regret it to try and make themselves feel better, but at the end of the day they probably do feel so grieved.

Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "The Jesus Fandom wrote: "Which arguments do you think work best to convince p..."

Yes, I've heard quite a few testimonies from women who've come to terms with their abortion now, and they said that it literally took them as long as a decade to realize that their depression, their anxiety, their drug use, their relationship problems, etc. began and stemmed from their abortion. And that makes sense, you know? Because abortion isn't like just removing a tooth or getting an appendix out, It's much more violent than that.

Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "Eloria wrote: "The Jesus Fandom wrote: "Which arguments do you think work bes..."

Yes, also I'm sure the women have an emotional attachment to that child from the beginning, even if they don't realize it.

List of some of the strongest prolife arguments in my opinion:

1. The Equal Rights Argument (as formulated by The Equal Rights Institute)

2. "If Abortion, then Infanticide" (David B. Hershenov)

3. The Argument from Identity - "I Was Once A Fetus" (Alexander Pruss)

4. The "Future Of Value"/"Future Like Ours" Argument (Don Marquis)

5. The Substance View (Francis J. Beckwith)

6. The Historical Argument of Denying Personhood (Christopher Kaczor)

7. "De Facto Guardian and Abortion: A Response to the Strongest Violinist" (Stephen Wagner, Josh Brahm, Timothy Brahm, Trent Horn, Matthew Mckinley)

8. The Endowment View of Personhood (John F. Kavanaugh S. J.) (Christopher Kaczor)

Oh nice they come with fancy names lol. Imma go read up on these

M. K. wrote: "List of some of the strongest prolife arguments in my opinion:

1. The Equal Rights Argument (as formulated by The Equal Rights Institute)

2. "If Abortion, then Infanticide" (David B. Hershenov)

..."

Ack, unfortunately, some people are actually literally trying to legalize infanticide right now! Up to 21 days in the name of "choice"! Still, the majority of sane people would find that horrendous, so it's definitely a valid (and important) argument.

Lilyyy wrote: "M. K. wrote: "List of some of the strongest prolife arguments in my opinion:

1. The Equal Rights Argument (as formulated by The Equal Rights Institute)

2. "If Abortion, then Infanticide" (David B..."

Yep. Plenty of pro-abortion bioethicists and philosophers have also been defending infanticide of born babies as a logical consequence of their pro-abortion position. There definitely needs to be arguments against infanticide of born infants. But the general public, who identify as "pro-choice," will still have some reservations against infanticide. So when pro-lifers demonstrate that infanticide of born babies is what logically entails on their position, they will atleast have a slightly more uncomfortable position to hold.

M. K. wrote: "Lilyyy wrote: "M. K. wrote: "List of some of the strongest prolife arguments in my opinion:

1. The Equal Rights Argument (as formulated by The Equal Rights Institute)

2. "If Abortion, then Infant..."

Agreed. Honestly, I just wish that every person on both sides knew exactly what they're fighting for/against. People actually believe "clump of cells" nonsense that they've come up with. I almost don't even know what to say because it's so obviously false, you know?

Pro-lifers aren't "forcing" women to stay pregnant.
https://t.co/lFxhFDUUuH

M. K. wrote: "Pro-lifers aren't "forcing" women to stay pregnant.
https://t.co/lFxhFDUUuH"

Thanks for sharing!

Lily - Books by Starlight wrote: "M. K. wrote: "Pro-lifers aren't "forcing" women to stay pregnant.
https://t.co/lFxhFDUUuH"

Thanks for sharing!"

Your welcome, Lily.

Hello again folks.

Here's a short video where a pro-lifer makes a case for why abortion is not ethically permissible in cases of rape: https://youtu.be/3YRTdqEayQ8

I'm genuinely wondering: is this a good response to the case of abortions in rape?

I'm gonna watch it today and see!

The Jesus Fandom wrote: "I'm gonna watch it today and see!"

Thank you. The video is not entirely about rape exceptions. It's only addressed in a portion of the video. I was initially convinced that it was good response but now i think maybe i was wrong. Would love to know your opinion.

So, I think before getting to the rape issue, first it's a good idea to establish that the baby is a human person with the right to life. If it wasn't, I would be fine with abortion in any case. If the baby has the right to life, though, the argument for rape needs to explain why being conceived in rape negates that right.

I think his argument works, what made you skeptical of it?

My arguments would be:
1) the child is still a human being with rights and how they were conceived does not change that
2) it will only pile on more trauma for the woman, as abortions are far from safe or trivial

The Jesus Fandom wrote: "So, I think before getting to the rape issue, first it's a good idea to establish that the baby is a human person with the right to life. If it wasn't, I would be fine with abortion in any case. If..."

Well i got some push back from another pro-lifer when i used the same line of reasoning. Maybe it was the way i worded it...? I'm not sure. Below is how i basically said it. Maybe you can see if you find anything offensive or wrong.

"When it comes to rape cases, it would be wrong to abandon the woman & force her to parent the child if she was unwilling. But it would also be wrong to kill the unborn child. There isn't just one victim here. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is where helpers need to come in to help. The moral solution would be to ask the woman to carry the unborn child to term, while making sure that she gets all the help she requires to recover from her mental as well as physical trauma. and then when the baby is born to give the baby up for adoption, if the rape victim still doesn't feel like she can take care of the baby. That's the moral solution. No woman who is a victim of rape should be abandoned and no child who is the result of rape should be punished for the crimes of another. That's my answer."

That seems like a fine answer to me! Do you know what they disliked about it?

The Jesus Fandom wrote: "That seems like a fine answer to me! Do you know what they disliked about it?"

Seemed fine to me too. The person seemed to be offended that i used the word "ask" when i said "the moral solution would be to ask the woman to carry the unborn child to term." Said i didn't have any right to "ask" anything of a rape victim. I was so confused

M. wrote: "The Jesus Fandom wrote: "That seems like a fine answer to me! Do you know what they disliked about it?"

Seemed fine to me too. The person seemed to be offended that i used the word "ask" when i sa..."

You would be asking a rape victim not to harm another human life the way her attacker harmed her. That wouldn't be easy, but it's also what is right, both morally and logically.

Was that person pro-life?

What I would change in your argument is that instead of drawing an accidental parallel between "forcing" someone to parent and "forcing" someone to be/stay pregnant, you should draw a parallel between the wrongness of a mother who decides her young child reminds her of her rapist and kills that young child and the wrongness of a mother who decides her unborn child will remind her of her rapist and has that child killed.

Then the person will either have to acknowledge the truth in that or fall back to arguing that preborn babies aren't actually babies. The latter should be simple to disprove. Show the humanity of preborn babies, whether that's through ultrasound imagery or miscarriages or stillbirths or simulations.

Yeah, I'd be confused too... I think the underlying argument of "you can't ask anything of a rape victim" is that their trauma gives them an excuse to have an abortion because they're going through a difficult time. So, essentially, the idea is that if you are going through a hard time you have an excuse to do something wrong...

Lily - Books by Starlight wrote: "Was that person pro-life?

What I would change in your argument is that instead of drawing an accidental parallel between "forcing" someone to parent and "forcing" someone to be/stay pregnant, you ..."

That's actually similar to how i also argue in cases of rape. The above one's just the practical aspect of it. As for the actual argument, i usually point out to them that they wouldn't think it permissible for a mother to intentionally kill her born child for being a product of rape, even if the child happened to look very much like his biological father (the rapist). Meaning they have an unproven underlying assumption here - that prenatal humans are less valuable than postnatal humans. Unless they can demonstrate that there is a morally relevant difference between a prenatal human and a postnatal human, i tell them that they have no case.

Ans yes the person was prolife.

The Jesus Fandom wrote: "Yeah, I'd be confused too... I think the underlying argument of "you can't ask anything of a rape victim" is that their trauma gives them an excuse to have an abortion because they're going through..."

I was confused. I thought maybe i should have worded it better considering how i don't actually know what it feels like to be a rape victim. We both seemed to be misunderstanding each other. Atleast that's what it looked like from my perspective. I had to stop the conversation because it wasn't going well. So i just apologized and bowed out of the conversation. It happened a while ago but the memory stayed in my mind. So I just thought I'd ask you all what you thought about it. Thank you both for responding. 🙏🏻

Yeah, I can understand how that would continue to bother you. Don't worry, I'm always open to talking about pretty much anything lol

M. wrote: "Lily - Books by Starlight wrote: "Was that person pro-life?

What I would change in your argument is that instead of drawing an accidental parallel between "forcing" someone to parent and "forcing"..."

Yes, well put! I also have a few of those conversation that I don't think I'll ever forget. There's a lot of hurt people in the world, and r*pe is definitely not something to be talked about lightly. I think it might be good to try and show how abortion after r*pe can be more damaging to women than a full-term pregnancy after r*pe if the person you're talking to is focusing completely on the woman in cases of r*pe. That way, there can be some understanding between the two perspectives.

Lily - Books by Starlight wrote: "M. wrote: "Lily - Books by Starlight wrote: "Was that person pro-life?

What I would change in your argument is that instead of drawing an accidental parallel between "forcing" someone to parent an..."

Thanks for the suggestions. I appreciate it very much. ✌🏻

M. wrote: "Lily - Books by Starlight wrote: "M. wrote: "Lily - Books by Starlight wrote: "Was that person pro-life?

What I would change in your argument is that instead of drawing an accidental parallel betw..."

Thank you for the questions you put up and, most of all, for standing for life!

Gracel wrote: "Hey can I copy some of your guys questions and stuff for a debate I'm in???????"

I'll join in the debate. :) XD

Gracel wrote: "And could you please tell me if i'm doing ok debating!!!!!"

Okay! <33

Gracel wrote: "Lily - Books by Starlight wrote: " Gracel wrote: "And could you please tell me if i'm doing ok debating!!!!!"

Okay!

Thanks!!!🤍"

I'm not an expert or anything by any means, though! I think it's great that you brought the conversation to the issue of life right away. You also asked some AMAZING questions; it's really crazy how most people actually don't know how to answer a lot of the important ones, yk?