Reading 1001 discussion

Underworld by Don DeLillo is our second quarter read. There is no review link yet but will post one soon.

Kristel has just asked me to mod the discussion for Underworld. Don't want to discourage anyone but this is a rather BIG book at 827 pages so you will need get started and read diligently to keep up. but you have three months and 28,000 other Goodreaders have read and rated it so you can do it.
The novel was published in 1997 and received a nomination for the Pulitzer Prize and won the American Book Award. It is set in the US states of New York, Nevada, Arizona, Texas and perhaps others I haven't gotten to yet. It's described at “a stunning, at times overwhelming, document of the twin forces of the Cold War and American culture“.
Have you read any other novels by Don DeLillo? He had eight books in the original 1001 Boxall list- Wow! Has since been reduced to three: White Noise, Mao II and Underworld. I've read his White Noise, and I enjoyed that. It won the (U.S.) National Book Award. Mr. DeLillo is still living and is about 85 years old. He published a short novel just a year and a half ago.

I'll try to find some good discussion questions for next post. Meanwhile go ahead and say if you plan to read it, have started, what you anticipate from it and anything else that comes to mind.
Limit posts about the story to the first third of the novel for the first few weeks please.

Thank you George! I am looking forward to finally reading Underworld. It’s been on my shelf a long time. I’ve read; The Body Artist (didn’t like it), White Noise (liked it okay) and LIbra which I really liked.

I bought a Kindle version when it came up on 1001 books some years ago. This time I plan to read it!

I am going to be reading it but have not yet started. I have read Mao II and White Noise both of which I thought were only moderately interesting. I loved Falling Man though.

Oh, I remember Falling Man - I did not enjoy it!

I read Falling Man too. I was okay with it.

I'm actually half-way through the novel as of today. My E-audiobook loan runs out tomorrow and I can't renew at this time. I will hold off on getting another source for a while since I'm well ahead of schedule. I have been enjoying the reading by Richard Poe.

That was quick George! I'll be starting tomorrow.,

I actually really vibed with Mao II but thought Falling Man and the Body Artist were 'meh', The Names was okay, and I was just really not into Ratner's Star. Have not read libra yet, but my goodness there really is too much Delillo on the list lol.

Here's a discussion question from the Bookrags site:
As Capote's book In Cold Blood (1965) and many of Tom Wolfe's novels— The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test(1968), The Right Stuff (1979), to name two—have done, Underworld relenders [sic- is this a word?] historical events in fictional form. But even more so than these novels do, Underworld frequently and obviously mingles "fact" with "fiction." Fictional Klara Sax attends Truman Capote's Black-and-White Ball, which was an actual event.

What are the effects of DeLillo's melding of fact and fiction? Should there be a clearer line between the two? Why do you suppose the novel allows this line to remain blurry?

Here's a question of my own: I have read that DeLillo wrote the opening part, the baseball game, first and published it as a short story, later deciding to use it as the opening for a long novel about the 1950s in the US. Do you think it fits with the rest? Is it the best part?
And another- If anyone reading this is not from the US, did you have trouble understanding any particular parts of the novel that involve American culture?

I just started a topic in the group's reviews and while it shows up as a new topic in the 1001 Book Reviews section, the index isn't linking to it so far. I don't know if someone has to do something to make that happen or if it just takes some time.

George P. wrote: "I just started a topic in the group's reviews and while it shows up as a new topic in the 1001 Book Reviews section, the index isn't linking to it so far. I don't know if someone has to do somethin..."
I’ll do the link tomorrow.

I was just looking at some comments on the Reddit site about this novel, which were interesting. Some say the novel has no unifying plot and is just meandering, others say yes, but that's on purpose. One said "It's about baseball, nuclear war, U.S.-Soviet competition, the nature of art under pressure from the conforming presence of authority (the Eisenstein film, Moonman 157, Lenny Bruce), love, sex, abortion, murder, redemption, and the strange pathways of human existence."
What do you think?

^^^ That's actually a pretty decent precis of the novel.

It's DeLillo's magnum opus: his paean and indictment of Cold War America. The opening 60 pages alone are worth the price of admission, even if the reader goes no further.

I still remember the opening sentence: "He speaks in your voice, American, and there's a shine in his eye that's halfway hopeful."

And as far as a unifying plot theme is concerned, it's in the title: Underworld.

Every civilization is built over the ruins of another, and not, or not only, on the legacy of its great achievements: garbage, discarded trash is just as historical as any great battle or monumental work of art. A society without trash is a society that is extinct. To produce greatness, you have to also produce garbage, just as we wouldn't be able to recognize happiness without experiencing sadness, or beauty without ugliness.

And most consequentially, there cannot be life without death (the novel's prologue is subtitled 'The Triumph of Death', a direct reference to Bruegel's masterpiece). The difference between the past as it was then and what's becoming the past with every passing minute is that we've achieved the ability make the triumph of death happen with the push of a button.

Plutonium-239 was the isotope used in the bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki. In Latin, "plutonium" literally means 'the place of Pluto'... the Roman god of the underworld.

NOW, I want to read it. Thank you George and Pillsonist

What are the effects of DeLillo's melding of fact and fiction? Should there be a clearer line between the two? Why do you suppose the novel allows this line to remain blurry?
I am about one third of the way through this novel. I am fine with the blur of fact and fiction. Unlike some novels where I find myself googling with frustration every event that blurs the line, I think this book is looking at the tensions between personal memory, and personal truths in relationship to larger forces and so I am fine with however it falls.

Here's a question of my own: I have read that DeLillo wrote the opening part, the baseball game, first and published it as a short story, later deciding to use it as the opening for a long novel about the 1950s in the US. Do you think it fits with the rest? Is it the best part?
Yes, so far the opening was the best part. Although I am not a big baseball expert and had never heard of the "shot heard round the world" as it refers to this baseball story, I felt that DeLillo captured the almost unbearable tension of the moment. I have certainly felt that hopeful expectation of a miracle in the face of unlikely odds coupled with preparing myself in body and mind to deal with defeat. DeLillo gave me that feeling and added characters that I wanted to know more about. Sadly they do not seem to be in the rest of the book although, as I said, I am only 1/3rd of the way through.

At first I felt that the meandering was too much, I did not think the book was moving, certainly not chronologically, but even in working out its themes. However, I seem to have gotten over a tipping point and I want to know how it unfolds so.....onward.

I enjoyed reading Gail's comments (as always).
As I have been reading on in Underworld (I'm nearing the finish), I've reflected on another literary work that it reminds me of- John Dos Passos' USA trilogy (The 42nd Parallel, The Big Money and 1919). It has been decades since I read that so my recall of it is rather hazy, but the three books combined were very far-ranging or meandering, and had to do with American culture in general. If someone has read them more recently maybe she/he could comment further on their similarity with Underworld. The 1001 book calls it "...the most successful of many attempts to write the inclusive story of American life". This work was set in the early part of the 20th century while DeLillo's is set in the mid-part, the 1950s and early 60s.

I have read the following DeLillo books

White Noise 3 Stars
Zero K 4 Stars
Falling Man 4 stars

As a general rule I like DeLillo but this book ugh

As a non American I have to say this book so far is completely boring to me.

The opening with the Baseball game had me struggling to keep awake honestly I don't get it, to me this sounds just like rounders which is a game kids play at school not a sport and it is not even that exciting playing the game let alone watching.

I am roughly half way through now and nothing has interested me the standout bits are a discussion about all the varieties of condoms available (yawn) a man obsessed with baseball memorabilia and tracking it down (snore) and now I am neck deep in the waste management business (coma time)

I have not found a single character to care about and honestly I am just living for the end of the book at the moment.

Yes Book, baseball is a unique institution rather than a sport, but once you have sat in the stands and absorbed the strange competition atmosphere and “my team” bonding that has a great deal to do with statistics there is something rather addictive about the events. For sport; rugby, soccer, basketball and hockey, but for a great outdoor event with fellow humans, baseball is wonderful. However, it is impossible if it is not live.
However, your notes made me LOL. I hope something happens in the book to peak your interest.

Book wrote: "As a non American I have to say this book so far is completely boring to me.

The opening with the Baseball game had me struggling to keep awake honestly I don't get it, to me this sounds just lik..."

I thought the opening segment at the baseball game was terrific. I do agree with Gail that televised baseball is rather boring, but so are televised cycling races that the Europeans are fond of, unless you're extremely interested in the sport. I do enjoy live baseball games though-like soccer/football a team can go from behind to ahead very quickly.
Book, "rounders" was the basis of baseball, but I understand that baseball rules are a lot more elaborate (I don't know anything about rounders) and of course it's on a larger field with adult males playing it.

TBH I hate all sports I do not support any teams and do not watch sport on TV with the exception of Olympic gymnastics and figure skating the rest of it seems like a waste of life to me. Even then I don't really care who wins I just like seeing them perform.

On the book front we are now pursuing a boat full of s**t in the hope of verifying the provenance of a baseball (honest to God this book is doing my head in)

Now we have moved onto the variety of condoms available (sigh) a party with Truman Capote (yay, oh it was only a few paragraphs) nuclear testing (getting warmer) Cuban missile crisis (and warmer) and then back to baseball (cold)

On the good news front I am nearly done hurray.

Congrats on finishing. I have put it aside while I read the BOTMs

Gail wrote: "Congrats on finishing. I have put it aside while I read the BOTMs"

This actually is a BOTM (Book of Three Months ;)

Woo hoo I finished this yesterday and have moved straight onto Little Women LOL

I actually enjoyed the way the narrative loops backwards and forwards through time via the voices of different characters so that for some events we know the outcome of the actions but not the original action until much later in the book.

It was interesting seeing how all the seemingly separate storylines would finally intersect and make a cohesive story.

While I enjoyed that aspect I really could have done without all the detail about various aspects of life in America which did make this a struggle.

3 Stars overall glad this was not my first DeLillo as it probably would have made me think twice before picking up another one.

Book’s comments have intrigued me so much I can’t wait to start, but a busy couple of weeks have left me behind in Anniversaries and I don’t like leaving that one too long!

I have read or mostly read two of DeLillo books.
White Noise ... 1 star
Falling Man ... 4 stars

I haven't started Underworld yet, but will try to get started on it soon. I have really looked forward to reading it.

MaryAnn (EmilyD1037) wrote: "I have read or mostly read two of DeLillo books.
White Noise ... 1 star
Falling Man ... 4 stars

I haven't started Underworld yet, but will try to get started on it soon. I have really looked forwa..."

I see that 9% of readers/raters rated White Noise at 1 or 2 stars, not a lot but a greater number than for many books. It is an unusual novel, it reminded me of some of Kurt Vonnegut's more experimental novels. For me it was a low 4 star, so I was a more typical reader/rater for it. I haven't read Falling Man as yet, perhaps I will like that.

George P. wrote: "Here's a discussion question from the Bookrags site:
As Capote's book In Cold Blood (1965) and many of Tom Wolfe's novels— The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test(1968), The Right Stuff (1979), to name tw..."

I feel like the melding of fact and fiction embeds the reader in a sense of concrete time, place and culture, within the specific constructed narrative the author wants to tell. It also ties in the reality of the times in the books themes and portrays how they transfer to real life. I don’t think a clearer line between the two is required unless someone is passing off fiction as non-fiction, I often enjoy the grounding of a story in actual events and eras, and it can be a fun aspect of a story to notice and pick out things about (or learn if it is events you have not previously heard of). I hadn’t heard of Truman Capote’s Black and White Ball previously, and after looking at pictures I think it’s just fabulous.

I think George’s question here is good one because I can see that part standing alone, and with the exception of some of Klara’s hijinks in the queer nightlife of the 70s, I found it to be the most compelling part. Which is disappointing when there are anther 800 pages of the book. I mean, the underlying thread of how the baseball travels around throughout the eras does tie it to the rest of the book, and I love the conceit itself, I was just disappointed that I didn’t find it more enthralling or in the spirit of the opening of the book. Honestly, as far as this type of book goes (American epic, contortion or medley of history) I feel like E.L Doctorow is kind of the master (I immediately thought of one of his off-list books “Homer and Langley” as the standard of what this book could have been for me). I think I might just be tired of Delillo’s style to be honest, but I also am not as enamoured with the kind of narratives about drug and sex addled dirt bags that seem to predominate a lot of 20th century dude-lit standards.

I am outside the US (Canada), and while I know almost nothing about baseball(that’s more of a not being a sports person thing though- I don’t actually know that much about hockey either) I feel like I caught most of the general references. And honestly, that is probably because Canadians tend to consume American culture and history at the nearly same rate the average American does. Which is sad considering it often overshadows our own history and media, which contains a lot of great stories and hidden gems.

Book wrote: "As a non American I have to say this book so far is completely boring to me.

The opening with the Baseball game had me struggling to keep awake honestly I don't get it, to me this sounds just lik..."

Highly relatable to my reading experience too, lol.

Amanda I am glad I am not alone LOL

Amanda wrote: I feel like I caught most of the general references. And honestly, that is probably because Canadians tend to consume American culture and history at the nearly same rate the average American does. ..."

I was certainly surprised and impressed by how much knowledge of American culture and history Canadian contestant Mattea Roach showed during her recent long run (23 wins) on the Jeopardy game show! And she's only 23 years old! She gave a lot of support to your statement.

Well, I have finished this most ambitious book. I found DeLillo's ability to build harmonies between various aspects of individual people's lives and their shared experiences remarkable. I started out being confused about who was important and wondered if I was supposed to remember who the characters were for later. Once I realized YES I was supposed to remember and started taking a few quick notes, I found my way a bit better. Like Book, I thought that the way the book moved back in time, although not in any strict way, so that you saw the results before you were told about the motives or the action that caused those results, actually worked. What I didn't think worked was some of the weighting. I loved the tension of the opening baseball scene but didn't care for the contrivance of following the ball particularly. There were quite a few story lines and characters that were brought in to support the contrivance which I could have happily done without. Did we really need to know about Charles and Chuckie for example? The scene of Manx selling the ball to Charles was brilliant and I can understand how DeLillo would not want to throw that away but I didn't think those characters needed to be in the book. I suspect DeLillo thought he needed to work in the Ad world of that era. Likewise we have moments that are representative of a particular American experience of the time: duck and cover, the Zapruder film and the Cuban Missile Crisis which I felt did deserve their place, but did we need to be introduced to the Texas Highway Killer? Again, death by guns is a very American experience as every single tragedy reconfirms, but was it necessary for us to meet him? I did love the two Catholic sisters and the Graffiti artist Moonman 157. Also, I found our Primary Character Nick (although it took me a long time to figure out that he was the primary character) only interesting in his youth and not in his adulthood.
So, I guess I am saying that it was a brilliant book that didn't completely work for me.

What are the effects of DeLillo's melding of fact and fiction? Should there be a clearer line between the two? Why do you suppose the novel allows this line to remain blurry? I think there is a word for this kind of novel that uses a lot of the cultural products and realities to tell the story. It definitely is pomo (post modern). I feel that DeLillo is writing a book about what it means to be from the USA and grounding it in nonfiction events such as test bombs in the desert, assassination of president.

Here's a question of my own: I have read that DeLillo wrote the opening part, the baseball game, first and published it as a short story, later deciding to use it as the opening for a long novel about the 1950s in the US. Do you think it fits with the rest? Is it the best part? I do think it fits because what's more American than baseball. It was a great device to pull together through the book.
And another- If anyone reading this is not from the US, did you have trouble understanding any particular parts of the novel that involve American culture?
That's a good question. I would be interested in the responses.

I'm glad to see some have still been reading this- nice comments Gail and Kristel.
It is a book with a great deal of sprawl, but for me it pretty much hung together, perhaps partly because the style of writing seemed consistent.

I've been slowly getting back into a steady reading habit (was very focused on monitoring the Ukraine war fof 2 months) and I found audiobooks of this one via our city library's hoopla collection. So I am hoping to 'read' this one over the next couple days. I finished the epic Russka, by Rutherfurd, and a few other longer audiobooks this season, and Underworld is only 31hrs long. :)

I've read 4 DeLillo books so far, I think- Falling Man, White Noise, Zero K, and Body Artist. I disliked Body Artist, was bored with Falling Man, barely even remember Zero K, and only liked one scene from White Noise. Maybe I'll like his longer work better? In any case soon I'll have finished 5 of DeLillo's books.

DeLillo is always not what I would call engaging reading but in the end I can like what I read. I still like Libra better but this one is close and probably only second because it was too long and some stuff could have been left out and still accomplished the intent. To me the baseball opening is important, it sets the stage for the tie the bind or should I say ball that binds. Anyway, this is a history of America from the 50s/60s and therefore very familiar to me. These were real issues. This stuff was happening, it probably is still happening but for some reason no one is questioning things like they did in the 60s.

And yes, while reading this book, I often thought about The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test which mentions day glow a lot and was about the drugs of the 50 and 60s. Did you know that LSD was actually legal for a long time and drug companies were experimenting with it.

I think companion reads for this certainly could be The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test and since Truman Capote has a big part in the book with his black and white party, reading something by Capote would be appropriate. I also think reading The Fifties by Halberstam.

Kristel wrote: "And yes, while reading this book, I often thought about The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test which mentions day glow a lot and was about the drugs of the 50 and 60s. Did you know that LSD was actually l..."

I was glad I read The Art of Fielding a while back, which helped me stay marginally engaged in the first part of this one. I am really not into sports. Doctorow's Billy Bathgate came to mind during the bits set in the Bronx, though there have been several others that also span that setting. This may be one of those novels that makes me feel like in reading the 1001 list I am getting acquainted with a particular guy (or a type of small-institution British academic) by reading his book collection.

I finished the book a couple of weeks ago, with a sigh of relief and a confirmation of my dislike of DeLillo. Apart from the opening chapter, I kept asking myself: "Where are we going with this?" And even though some of the comments here helped make a bit more sense of the "reasons" why it was written this way, I really felt completely lost at times when the story was jumping from one character to the next without any clue or connection, and suddenly I was confronted with Eisenstein (which cheered me up, an old topic I had from film studies), Edgar J. Hoover and his mooted platonic/gay relationship with his 2IC, and Lenny Bruce, who was largely unknown to me except for not being afraid according to the lyrics of an REM song (It's The End of The World As We Know It (And I Feel Fine)).

So, I'll provide some comments about the questions or previous comments above:

- George Q1: Mixing fact and fiction provides a certain authenticity to a novel or, at a minimum, it should anchor solidly the story in time. This admixture can quickly blur the lines between fact and fiction, especially when the portrayed fictional events or story get too close to the epicentre of the historical facts as recorded or witnessed. Authors can take various degrees of liberty when tossing the fact/fiction salad, whether one thinks of Victor Hugo or, in the current case, DeLillo. Nevertheless, it probably works best in the fictional sense when history itself is a little blurred with respect to the events and elements that shaped it. For example, despite rumours and specific investigations, there is still no way to determine the exact identity and whereabouts of the baseball that Bobby Thomson hit in the left field stands of the Polo Grounds in 1951 (the bat is in Cooperstown though). Choosing this grey area as a starting point for a story was clever from DeLillo.

- George Q2: I read this from Australia but, having grown up in Quebec as a Montreal Expos fan (sigh...), I understand the mystique around the ball game and, more broadly, about several elements of the American culture. The obverse situation would be a novel written by an Australian author with a historical event from a cricket match (Bradman's duck in his last innings; the underarm delivery against New Zealand, etc.) as a starting point. As I alluded to above, I thought the opening chapter depicting certain characters witnessing the "shot heard 'round the world" was a very engaging piece and gave me hope for the rest of the book. Alas, what followed didn't reconcile me with DeLillo.

- George Q3: I too felt that the story was meandering and even sprawling in its many storylines. Even though there were tiny connections between some of them, I am still scratching my head to understand the purpose of how the novel was built and the messages it purported to convey. The symbolism outlined by Pillsonista provides some clues about the unifying themes linking the various parts and angles from the novel. Yet, I still feel that it is mostly disjointed and less purposeful as, say, Infinite Jest by Foster Wallace or House of Leaves by Danielewski. The other difference is that the latter two were actually more engaging and entertaining.

Well, while I was underwhelmed by the book overall, it is occurring to me know that it was kind of cool that the book recounted American history through items and that trash management as a culture and action is featured in this book as something worthy of focus.