All About Books discussion

Hello group members

I and Nancy and a few other members are interested in reading Cromwell Trilogy by Hilary Mantel. Starting from April 2022 , it has no deadline , all can read at their pace. As we know the series includes:

Wolf Hall
Bring Up the Bodies
The Mirror & the Light

In the meanwhile , you all are invited to share your thoughts about any work by Mantel you have read.

As for me Wolf Hall will be my first book by her , but i have heard many good things about Beyond Black and A Place of Greater Safety.

I'm glad to return to Wolf Hall and hopefully follow through with the series. My first read dates back to 2015-ish, and I had a few problems to follow the plot back then. First, I was in the middle of a working experience which involved learning JavaScript and such. But also, it took me ages to understand that Mantel doesn't take the reader by the hand in any way. Look, I'm a naive person, if you don't tell me who is weaving which intrigues, I will get lost. Most of what the characters think is not spelled out for you, you have to read between the lines. So this time I am prepared, I am in the mood - and also, I hope, less naive :) Looking forward to cracking my paperback open!

Welcome Sam.

Historical fiction is not easy to follow after a break, every time we have to start at the beginning, even with the characters directory in the beginning of the book, I always forget who is who. There have been gaps in reading because other group reads take priority and because this is a series, it doesn’t get selected easily for a group read.

Part 1 of the book describes Cromwell’s childhood, his father’s abusive nature towards him. I don’t understand this psychology .... Shakespeare’s father was also abusive.

I really enjoyed this trilogy. I would love to join in but it may be late May to early June before I can devote the time to read these books again.

It's been years since I last read these books, but I do remember I didn't like Wolf Hall as much as the other two books.

There are mixed reactions regarding Wolf Hall among my GR friends and not many have finished the whole series. Its nice to know that you liked the second and third books Alannah.

Nidhi wrote: "There are mixed reactions regarding Wolf Hall among my GR friends and not many have finished the whole series. Its nice to know that you liked the second and third books Alannah."

I think I had noticed that too. But there was a television adaption that was based on both Wolf Hall and Bring up the Bodies. So that's why I decided to continue the series. I think there was meant to be a second series based on The Mirror and the Light but I haven't heard anything more, I believe COVID didn't help this.

I couldn't have loved Wolf Hall more, and thought Bring up the Bodies was great too. I was planning to read the last in the series this year, so I'll enjoy following everyone's thoughts in this thread. Thanks so much for mentioning the series in the works, Allanah! I see it may be out in 2023, and Mark Rylance is confirmed--oh boy.

Kathleen wrote: "I couldn't have loved Wolf Hall more, and thought Bring up the Bodies was great too. I was planning to read the last in the series this year, so I'll enjoy following everyone's thoughts in this thr..."

That's good news. I really enjoyed the series. I thought Rylance was brilliant in his role.

Count me in. I started Wolf Hall last year, but have gotten stalled and set it aside. This will give me the motivation to pick it up again.

I wish I had time to join you. Many of my friends have read one or more of the books in the series, and they do intrigue me . . . but I have over-booked myself at the moment. :)

Enjoy!

Yes, Greg, I understand . Over booking is the most common problem among GR members, I really envy those who can organise their readings well.

As far as Mantel is concerned, I have been over booking myself for last three years, now it demands priority.

Greg, we will be open for comments for whole year, feel free to start whenever you can.

Thanks Nidhi, I may join in and add my own comments later in the year once I have time.

Enjoy!! :)

Over-booking! My new middle name! But I look forward to beginning Wolf Hall in the next few days and will keep in mind that it does not spoon feed us, and will pay attention. I also have the CDs which I found at the local library sale last summer, so will read and listen along. That should do it! It has been some years since I read books on British history, so I'm delighted to get back into it, with a vengeance ! I also have the whole Dorothy Dunnett Niccolo series, but I'm getting ahead of myself. Thanks, Nidhi, for putting this all together.

Part 2 of Wolf Hall.

This part describes an epidemic, people used to die within 24 hours of infection. Last year we read Hamnet by Maggie O’ Farrell, there also an epidemic is in the centre of the story.

Humankind has suffered so much in absence of vaccines. Now at least babies get vaccinated to ward off many infections.

Work was crazy over the last couple of weeks, I didn't have time or energy to read at all ... but now I have finished part one of Wolf Hall.
Thomas is such a strategist, he can't just go a marry a girl he loves, no, he has a whole plan even for the most intimate things in life. He definitely crosses the creepiness line there for me. But it makes sense, I do love how Mantel weaves a coherent character out of historical facts and really breathes life into personalities like the cardinal.

Sam, do you have difficulty in understanding the dialogues , who is speaking and who is replying? I am reading an ebook, and there is sometimes no change of paragraph. Also pronouns ‘he’ ‘it’ have been used indiscriminately, I think it is author’s style and will take time to get used to.

Yes, it's the author's style and I DO hope we'll get used to it. However, I'm cheating a bit by reading and listening to the audiobook at the same time. I feel it helps, but still, it could have been a smoother read. On the whole, I'm enjoying it very much. Will comment when I'm further along. Already have Bring Up the Bodies ready to dig into.

I think it's the author's style for the character of Cromwell. Once I got used to it, I loved it, because it's like being inside of his head--the closest you can get without it being from his point of view. I hope you all get used to it and can enjoy that part of it.

Audio ‘reading' is not cheating Nancy, you can go for it if you enjoy it more than reading, just share with us what you feel or appreciate, I observed you like historical fiction.

Nidhi wrote: "Audio ‘reading' is not cheating Nancy, you can go for it if you enjoy it more than reading, just share with us what you feel or appreciate, I observed you like historical fiction."
I don't enjoy it MORE than reading, I enjoy listening to it being read WHILE I'm reading. Somehow it sinks in more easily. I've taken my "cheating" one step further: I watched the video series and now everything is really falling into place. There are small things that I've found interesting/funny/weird that I thought I'd mention, one being the put-down of people who read books, or was it only women who read? I love that Cromwell is low-born and street-smart, as we say today, but rises to great prominence but does not try to outwardly lord it over his "betters", but quietly gets his way by convincing the king that he is right and makes them feel that he is indispensable. I am about 1/3 of the way through Wolf Hall but have the advantage of knowing what is going to happen and to whom, so I don't have to be guessing who "he" is all the time. Knowing the general history beforehand helps too.

I have found my copies, look forward to usingthis meadálong to read them. I loved the BBC series.

Welcome Jade.

I like e-books and hard copies because I can go back at my leisure, in audio I get lost when I try to go back. Lol.

How is everyone coming along with the book? I am enjoying it but often have to re-read sections to make sure I know who is saying what, as has been noted in so many reviews, but I find it easier as I go along. One fact I have learned here is that Mary may have been a dwarf, although I have looked at paintings of her and there is no indication of this. In the tv series, there was a dwarf in Anne's retinue, but I don't remember if it was supposed to be Mary. Also, neither the book nor the series put Henry forth as a strong kingly character in my view. He was big and gave orders, but he doesn't seem to have done much deep thinking on his own, but depended mostly on his advisors. But, that's just my impression. What does everyone else think? Am I being blasphemous?

Almost finished Wolf Hall. Anyone else made any progress? Would love to hear what you have to say. Are we going to set a date to discuss each book in the series, Nidhi? I will wait a week or so to begin Bring up the Bodies.

Just finished reading part 2 of Wolf Hall , Nancy. I have now picked up some speed, lets start discussion from May 1 st week and also begin the next in series. How about you Sam ? This is a reread for you, I hope we won’t spoil things for you.

I really admire Mantel’s story telling, it’s so vivid that it is almost visual. The second part is very touching as far as Cromwell’s personal life is concerned. I know next to nothing about the history of Queen Kathrine and her marriages ( divorce), so I find it interesting.

I've posted some notes as I've gone along in another group. I'll post them here if anyone is interested, but there could be spoilers....

I believe that was the whole point of her writing this, as very little had been written about Cromwell and she may have taken some liberties with the details, as so little was known. I love knowing more about him and wish I knew more about More, but I am sure there are many books written on his life.

Laurel wrote: "I've posted some notes as I've gone along in another group. I'll post them here if anyone is interested, but there could be spoilers...."
HAHA Laurel, I think we know how it all ends. We'd love to hear your thoughts!

All right. Here is Chapter One. But don't read this if you haven't read it, if you want to avoid spoilers.

Notes on Wolf Hall Part One. Chapter I. Across the Narrow Sea. Putney, 1500.

I often take notes on books I'm reading - especially complex literary fiction like this is. I don't promise to keep it up. At some point the book takes over.... but for now, here's what I have. There may be spoilers, so don't read these notes if you don't want to be spoiled...

p.3 First line: "So now get up."
The Wheel of Fortune.
The Goddess Fortuna: subject of Skelton's "Magnificence" referenced in frontispiece.
We shall see the rise and fall of Wolsey, More, Cromwell himself, and others.

Thomas Cromwell, ca. age 15, is being beaten within an inch of his life, by his brutal, violent father.

Use of historical present, pronoun "he" - we are inside TC's head, now, and throughout the novel.

Within a page or two we are shown TC's survival instincts, move cautiously inch by inch, don't attract attention, self-effacement but determination, powers of observation, stoicism, acceptance. "I'll miss my dog." Feels no pain, reasoning ability/logic.

Foreshadowing his death? Or the ever present reality of death?

p.4 Then a jarring sentence puts us briefly in Walter's head: "You've done it this time, a voice tells Walter." Then the omniscient 3rd person: "But he closes his ears, or God closes them for him." Referring to Walter, or telling us that Thomas is hearing/imagining Walter's thoughts? Then: "He is pulled downstream" back to Thomas as he loses consciousness.

p.5 His sister Kat - substitute mother. He wants comfort, but doesn't want to "mess her up" with his blood. She is what grounds him: "He feels as if he is floating, and she is weighting him to earth."
p.4 "Her hands empty, she clasps them in violent prayer." Juxtaposition of violence and gentleness - survivor's legacy?

Morgan Williams, Kat's husband
"Welsh and pugnacious."
"Look at you, boy. You could cripple the brute in a fair fight." Obviously TC is big and strong - a match for his father.

p.6 Kat tells Morgan about her father.
"I wonder what I've married into," Morgan Williams says.
Thomas thinks (maybe for the first time) that perhaps Walter killed his mother. But pragmatic: "Kat's what he's got for a mother" now.

p.7 Morgan, future magistrate, rants about Thomas and Kat's father.

p. 8 Walter comes, shouting and kicking doors "with some of his acquaintance." Thomas realizes he can't stay in Putney. If Walter gets after Thomas again, Thomas will kill him "and if I kill him they'll hang me, and if they're going to hang me I want a better reason."

p. 9 Morgan paid for Thomas to learn to read and write. And for all of Morgan's bluster, he's afraid of Walter.
Thomas shows concern for family: " Who's he going to hit when I'm gone?" Sister "Bet is married and got out of it."
Morgan offers money to help Thomas on his way. Kat doesn't want him to go.
p. 10 Thomas wants to go back for his dog, Bella.

p. 11 Thomas takes the money. Says goodbye (and more) in Welsh.
p. 12 Morgan stares. Thomas savors the surprise of himself having learned Welsh hanging around the house. (We'll see more of his facility with languages...)

p.12-13 "he talks to strangers very easily." He is good with horses.
Reasoning out where to go - decides on Dover to take a ship to France.
How old is he? He says 18, then 15. Probably younger - 13?
He makes money in Dover doing card tricks. Spends some on a prostitute. (His first time?) Boards a ship after helping 3 Lowlanders bribe the clerk.
p.14 They leave at Calais. He is not stopping till he gets to a war.

p.15 He drops Kat's holy medal into the sea - an offering? for luck? (Brings us back to Fortuna.)

Very thorough notes Laurel! If we just read your notes, we wouldn't have to read the book! Haha. Just kidding. I've finished Wolf Hall and am beginning Bring Up the Bodies. Will read at my own pace until everyone is ready to discuss the books. They are great!

I saw, you rated it 4 stars. Thanks for waiting Nancy.

Nidhi wrote: "I saw, you rated it 4 stars. Thanks for waiting Nancy."

Four stars for me, means the book is great. Five starts means it knocked my socks off!

Nancy wrote: "Very thorough notes Laurel! If we just read your notes, we wouldn't have to read the book! Haha. Just kidding. I've finished Wolf Hall and am beginning Bring Up the Bodies. Will read at my own pace..."

Thanks, Nancy. Shall I continue posting them? No one else has commented, so wasn't going to continue if no one is interested...

Laurel wrote: "Nancy wrote: "Very thorough notes Laurel! If we just read your notes, we wouldn't have to read the book! Haha. Just kidding. I've finished Wolf Hall and am beginning Bring Up the Bodies. Will read ..."

Absolutely! And I'm sure more people will find your notes interesting too, as they come back to read these posts. I have decided to finish several books I am reading right now before continuing with Bring Up the Bodies. It just needs more concentration than I can give it right now.

How is everyone getting along with Wolf Hall?

Yes Laurel, I agree with Nancy, keep on posting your notes they will be helpful as the book is not very easy to read.

I finished part 3 and now I’m enjoying the book. As I wrote earlier I like Mantel’s style, it is very strong, when we read about More’s household’s atmosphere, we feel this strength of language and that is the reason Mantel has taken liberty with pronouns. ( who is the speaker).


Second thing I admired about the style is the way she allows Cromwell to introspect is own character, which reveals his past and his character. For example he says.....

“He looks at Richard, and sees how badly he wants to give this lordling a smack in the mouth. That would have been me, once, he thinks. But now I am as sweet as a May morning.”

You are right Nancy, these books need attention, I don’t need a break between the books but I am not hurrying to finish them.

Notes on Wolf Hall Part One. Chapter II. Paternity, 1527.

A gap of 27 years. Thomas is now 40-42.

p.16 Stephen Gardiner. Tall and skinny, dressed in black, like a crow. Omen of death?
"I'll pray to anyone, till I'm on dry land." He doesn't like being on water. What are his religious beliefs?
Stephen is condescending, critical, arrogant, resentful. "supposedly some sort of semi-royal by-blow."
Brought up by wool-trade people. Thomas knows too much about his past. He is jealous of anyone else getting close to the cardinal.

p.17-19 Cardinal Wolsey. Easy, familiar, teasing. He treats everyone, servants and visitors, the same.
In contrast to the crow, he is "like a leopard." Tall, regal, impressive, but fat. "Even the candles bow civilly to the cardinal."
Thomas is his man of business. He jokes that the cardinal can control the weather - ask God to make the sun come out. ("It has been raining since last September.")
Thomas has just come back from two weeks in Yorkshire. The cardinal has never been to York (considered something of a backwater) even though he is the Archbishop of York.

The cardinal's project is heartily disliked - to divert income from merging some 30 monasteries into revenue for two colleges he is founding: Cardinal College in Oxford, and one in Ipswich.

p.20 There are difficulties. "The people say they are going to kill me." Is it bluster? Thomas will need an armed guard - the cardinal hates any show of force. Would prefer prayer and persuasion.

p. 21-22 The cardinal would like Thomas to be a spy in the queen's household. "Do you have any Spanish?" Thomas doesn't give a straight answer.

The cardinal to Thomas: "If you ever plan to be off your guard, let me know."

King Henry wants to divorce his wife, Katherine and be free to marry again so he can have a son. "If only he wanted something simple. The Philosopher's Stone. The elixir of youth."

p.23 Thomas doesn't know when he was born - "Kat has assigned him a date."

p.24-26 The cardinal considers sending Stephen to Rome. The cardinal has never been to Rome either. Thomas has. "He knows the money markets." Wolsey hopes to convince Henry to stay with Katherine. But he also is making plans for other outcomes.

p. 27 Wolsey reminisces about Henry VII meeting Katherine. Spanish etiquette requires that she remain veiled until her wedding day. "Why may I not see her, have I been cheated, is she deformed...?" Thomas muses that Henry "was being unnecessarily Welsh."

p.29 Thomas's accomplishments (besides being fluent in Spanish): he knows by heart the entire New Testament in Latin, he is at home in courtroom or waterfront, bishop's palace, or inn yard. He can draft a contract, train a falcon, draw a map, stop a street fight, furnish a house and fix a jury. He knows new poetry (in Italian), Plato and Plautus...

The Duke of Norfolk has complained that the cardinal has raised an evil spirit to follow him around. Thomas is highly amused by this notion.

p.30 Rafe Sadler. Ward of TC since age 7 and now his secretary.

Notes on Wolf Hall Part One. Chapter III. At Austin Friars, 1527.

The Wolseys at home. Wife Liz. Another dog named Bella. He gets a letter from his son Gregory (13) away at school. Compared to Thomas at age 13, Gregory is "dutiful." Not a scholar. His Latin is bad.

p.36 Thomas owns a Tyndale Bible. He has also bought a German book - something to do with Martin Luther? Clearly he is interested in Protestant ideas.

p.37 He employed Liz's father, Henry Wykys, shortly after returning to Putney from abroad. Henry knew the boy Thomas. When asked what happened to change him from a fighter to a lawyer, Thomas replies "I found an easier way to be."

p.38 It is revealed he spent time in Antwerp - den of Protestant heretics and the pox (syphilis).

p.40 Thomas ponders what his wife has said about what women will think about Henry divorcing his wife. "Why should my wife worry about women who have no sons..." Is empathy just something "women do?" He can learn from that, he thinks.

Mantel is making him fully human here. "He gathers his papers for the day. Pats his wife, kisses his dog."
And the sun has come out.

Notes on Wolf Hall Part Two. Chapter I. Visitation, 1529.

Not a lot to say on this chapter. Noticing several references to the theatrical nature of the court and the church. I suspect there will be much more of this, given the reference to Skelton's morality play "Magnificence" and the quote from Vitruvius "on the theater" in the frontispiece.

"It's hard to escape the feeling that this is a play... And that it is a tragedy." p. 47

"The river shifts beneath them, dim figures in an allegory of Fortune. Decayed Magnificence (Wolsey) sits in the center" p. 50

"The play has turned into some kind of low comic interlude; that, he thinks, is why Patch (the cardinal's fool) is here." p. 53

That's all I have at this point. I got stalled, and probably won't get back to this until July or so....

Laurel wrote: "That's all I have at this point. I got stalled, and probably won't get back to this until July or so...."

Thanks so very much Laurel. These notes are really helpful and have made me realize how much I actually missed or didn't fully get. Will look forward to future postings! I want to finish the trilogy by July but will probably want to re-read sometime in the future.

I am just a few chapters from finishing the trilogy, and have found it gets easier reading as you go along. A few helpful aids in following the story are these youtube videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?So sorry, I tried to copy and paste several interesting-looking videos but due to my lack of technical knowledge, it just didn't happen.
However, there are quite a few youtube videos about this trilogy and interviews with the author, and can easily be found.
v=Bkwo0rVOXSE,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CiVn...

Laurel, have you any further notes to share with us?

Nancy wrote: "Laurel, have you any further notes to share with us?"

Sorry, Nancy. I'm still stalled. It's been a horrible summer and I'm not doing much reading at all right now. I do hope to get back into books, but right now I'm trying to sort out getting approved for a mortgage, and maybe buying my first house at age 67. It's a terrible time to be trying to buy, but rents are sky high as well. My landlord just raised my rent $300, and he'll be putting the farm back on the market probably in the next month. I've been through a year of limbo already with him trying to sell, and me holding out to see if the new buyer would keep me as a tenant (it's a separate unit in the basement of the farmhouse). But long story short, the root cellar wall collapsed in a storm in May (the same day I had my 20-year-old cat put down), Then there were a series of water issues - the water tank had a hole, and then when that was replaced I still had water from the AC because the guy who put in a new furnace didn't hook it up correctly. And it takes my landlord a bloody long time getting things fixed.... Sorry for the long explanation. I hope to get back to it by this winter - maybe in my new house? Got to find a realtor now, and see what is out there that I can afford.

Laurel, I'm so sorry you are having all these issues, and one on top of another. Of course it will all smoothe itself out eventually and you can dig into reading again which is one of my greatest pleasures. I was listening to the second half of the Mirror and the LIght but kept falling asleep, so I've decided to go back and just read the whole second half of the book without listening to it. Much easier to concentrate. I'm sure I could read the whole thing several times and get more out of it each time, but my to-be-read pile is going to tumble down on top of me and kill me if I don't start working on it. Very best of luck and best regards,

Nancy

Laurel, I hope things will turn out to your benefit soon. We are having same problem with our office, after three lockdowns , business is nil and have to change office after ten years, I can’t even plan my next day . During these times I resort to children classics like I did when we were locked down in March 2020 for the first time.

First let’s sort out life, books will always be there. Hope to see you back with a bang 😄