Reading the Detectives discussion

Welcome to our June challenge read of Murder at Monk's Barn written by Cecil Waye a pen name for John Rhode (he also used Miles Burton) and first publsihed in 1931. This is the first in the The 'Perrins, Private Investigators' Mysteries' - four books are listed in the series on Amazon and Goodreads. I am unsure if that is all, so please feel free to correct me if there are more!

Burden, who had served in the war, and had considerable experience of death in its violent forms, took a pace forward. He saw at once that Mr. Wynter was beyond mortal aid.

Gregory Wynter is shot dead through the window of his dressing room. There is no apparent motive for the crime, and it seems impossible for the murderer to have escaped before the police arrive. The dead man's brother, Austin, enlists the help of Christopher and Vivienne Perrins, a brother-and-sister team of private investigators.

In this classic puzzler, the Perrins piece together the complex relationships within the Wynter household and beyond. What they discover leads surprisingly to romance, not to mention the unravelling of an "impossible" murder which also involves a box of poisoned chocolates . . .

Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread.

I finished this last night and was disappointed. I found the detective siblings bland though I quite liked the local police inspector. The plot is one I dislike: an impossible crime using a method that I don't believe would work. I found the murderer too obvious in such a small cast of characters.

For my nit-picking complaints, why would Austin (hope I have the name right) send chocolates immediately after Vi told him she did not like them? At the very least he would have included a note explaining that he wasn't ignoring her tastes. Could the murderer safely assume Anne would not make it down to the second layer where the poisoned chocolates were when there wer so few left in the top layer? And I have no faith in his dying dash across the road to see her one last time.

I really liked Austin and hope Anne, and any future husband, doesn't interfere with the running of the company. It would have been better if she were out of the picture. I also assume Austin will do right by Phyliss and her child as he did with the elderly gardener. He and the policeman were my favorites.

I wondered about the whole chocolates bit too. Why would he send her a box of candy he knows she doesn't want? It seemed to ignore her expressed opinion. It also seemed that Mr. C's trusting the eating of the candy to chance was risky. What if Anne decided to try the other kind?

The ending reminded me of Checkmate to MurderE.C.R. Lorac. It was complicated and impossible to predict from the information we were given until the staples were discovered at the end. I just had to accept it was possible as I couldn't picture it happening with any accuracy. Seemed a risky way to murder someone.

As I said on the other thread, I did like the relationship of affection and respect between the siblings with her taking the lead detective role.

Susan in NC posted this in the other thread but I've moved it over here to be on the safe side :)

Susan in NC wrote:
I enjoyed this one, I liked the no-nonsense style and sibling relationship - they were clearly fond of each other, but not sappy. Also, I liked that the brother clearly respected his sister’s intelligence and ability, nice for the period.

I liked Austin Wynter, was glad they could help him. I think the author did a good job making it look like Austin could have done it; with a small group of suspects, as a reader I don’t want to get too comfortable too soon, or the plot loses its edge! I was also pleased that Austin had complete faith in Viv, and she got to do most of the detecting. And I like the local police, they weren’t blockheads, worked fair and square with the Perrins.

Not quite as sure about the feasibility of the murder method, and the rather melodramatic finale, but it was fun and worked for me to wrap things up! The poisoned chocolates used made me think of Anthony Berkeley’s classic, of course!

ChrisGA wrote: "I wondered about the whole chocolates bit too. Why would he send her a box of candy he knows she doesn't want? It seemed to ignore her expressed opinion. It also seemed that Mr. C's trusting the ea..."

I agree about the “Checkmate” similarity with the murder method, and the riskiness of the chocolates. One of my pet peeves is a really involved murder method, heavily reliant on chance and mechanical devices operating perfectly. What if there was a thunderstorm or strong wind - would the plan still work? Plus, when they go on for paragraphs or pages describing the location of this nut and bolt, or that bracket newly embedded in the wall, or this chemical substance mixing with that one, my eyes glaze over! I really can’t picture it, and feel it’s very chancey…

Judy wrote: "Susan in NC posted this in the other thread but I've moved it over here to be on the safe side :)

Susan in NC wrote:
I enjoyed this one, I liked the no-nonsense style and sibling relationship - th..."

Thanks, Judy, sorry about spoilers - I thought I was being careful while posting, but I see I flubbed it about Austin not being guilty!

Not to worry Susan, I think anyone who has read a few GA mysteries featuring young lovers probably wouldn't have him top on their list of suspects!

Talking of young lovers, I wonder if that means that the brother will be alone in the second book? I am assuming that, due to the time this was written, marriage will end her career, sadly.

I think you could be right, Susan - looking at the blurbs for the other books, they all only mention Christopher. It says in the Martin Edwards introduction that the other 3 books are thrillers rather than traditional mysteries like this one, but I don't think he says whether Viv is still taking part in them.

Judy wrote: "Not to worry Susan, I think anyone who has read a few GA mysteries featuring young lovers probably wouldn't have him top on their list of suspects!"

Lol, true!

Judy wrote: "I think you could be right, Susan - looking at the blurbs for the other books, they all only mention Christopher. It says in the Martin Edwards introduction that the other 3 books are thrillers rat..."

Oh, that would be a bummer, I like Viv! But we really didn’t get to know Chris terribly well, just that he’s smart, stalwart, upstanding and likes his sister. Might be interesting to see how he does on his own.

I liked Vi too, but I suppose Chris could grow without her. I like the look of the fourth in the series, The Prime Minister's Pencil

It might just be the cover grabbing me really, but I suspect I will read on to get to the last one in the series.

I enjoyed this book and liked the interaction of the siblings. I too thought Austin giving her the chocolates after she said she didn't like them a bit far fetched. The police did need that bit of evidence to arrest him. I am disappointed that Viv doesn't appear in the other titles. It was a promising relationship that could have been explored a lot further.

I've just looked at a few Goodreads reviews of the second book and they all say it is a shame that Vivienne isn't in it, so sadly it does look as if she disappears.

I agree about Austin sending the chocolates once she has said she doesn't like them being a bit unlikely, though useful to the plot. I would have also liked to know what flavours they are beyond "square" and "round" - I find it hard to imagine how anyone could not like chocolates, although I do avoid toffee-type centres which are likely to pull out my fillings!

Guess we should be grateful to live in an age beyond round and square! I dislike coconut so am really disappoint if I get one of those.

I enjoyed it, but did get to the point where it was clear who the murderer was and couldn't figure out the mechanism. I also liked Viv a lot and it is a pity she is not in the next book.

The sending of chocolates when she said she disliked them was the weakest part of the plot and the 'round' and 'square' thing truly odd. Although my mother said that chocolate before, and during WWII, was pretty horrible and best avoided.

Personally, I hate coffee chocolate, or coffee full stop. I can't bear the smell of it and am a tea only zone...

Ooh, I love both coffee and coffee chocolate, Susan. If the round chocolates are coffee-flavoured, I'll eat those and leave you the square ones (especially if they have creme egg filling, which is my least favourite!)

It's interesting that your mother says chocolate wasn't very nice during and after WW2 - that could explain Vivienne's lack of enthusiasm.

Am I right in thinking that we never find out what happens to Phyllis and her unborn baby? After Vivienne promised to arrange something for her, I was waiting to find out what is arranged, but I don't think we ever hear beyond the initial support and offer of a place to stay.

Judy wrote: "Am I right in thinking that we never find out what happens to Phyllis and her unborn baby? After Vivienne promised to arrange something for her, I was waiting to find out what is arranged, but I do..."

You’re right, we never did; I almost supposed Vi meant to keep Phyllis as an assistant maid to her and Chris’ housekeeper, and keep her baby while employed by the siblings (no idea how that would work, just felt that might be what Vi would propose). However, if Vi marries, Chris might not be willing to keep on Phyllis and her baby - also, would a tiny household of just one bachelor gentleman need a housekeeper and maid? I guess Phyllis and baby could come work for Vi and her new husband, but that would put her back among people who know her story, that there was no husband, could be awkward (for that era, unwed mother).

Unrelated, but hope all of our British members, whether monarchists or not, are enjoying the long Platinum Jubilee weekend holiday!

Interesting ideas about Phyllis's future, Susan. I wish the author had thought to mention what happens to her - I think we are supposed to take it that Vi sorts something out, but it would be nice to know what that is.

I've had a good holiday weekend, thank you - hope others in the UK have had too.

Finished today, and loved Vivienne! A pity she shouldn´t appear in the other books! The love story was quite unnecessary. ;)
Also agree about the chocolates, and wondered when they´d finally find out about them when I long since knew. The ending was a bit disappointing with the complicated mechanisms and the obvious culprit, but good on the whole.

Seeing as Vi's future husband was so good to take care of his old employee and find him a gardening job, I assume he will take care of his niece and her mother.

I am concerned whether Anne will want even more money from the business; she was already living beyond her means.

Overall I really enjoyed reading this book, in part because of the flow of the writing. Though, as an American, the language came off a bit too proper, and not the way people would normally speak, in my experience.

I pretty much agree with all the comments and question some of the tenuous plot pieces: the overly complex murder of Gilbert, the risk in poisoning the chocolates, Austin giving them to Vi after learning of her dislike.

I liked Austin, the policemen, Vi, and Mrs. Cartwright, but would have liked to have seen more of Anne's character. Chris was OK, but a little one-dimensional.

I too am sorry that Vi and Austin won't be in the future books. There could have been so many opportunities to use them.

And I don't understand why the author didn't wrap up Phyllis' arc. It would have been easy and would have made the book feel more complete.

With that, I leave one question to the group. Did others especially enjoy this writing style and, if so, do you have suggestions for other mysteries that have that kind of flow? I like Agatha Christie and The Knocker on Death's Door by Ellis Peters, for example. I prefer Golden Age mysteries to modern or suspense thrillers.

Maybe Waye/Rhode didn't like the idea of female lead character and that is why he killed her off by marrying her off.