David Estes Fans and YA Book Lovers Unite! discussion
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Full disclosure: I've published a grand total of three things in my life(one short 10-page comic and two short stories) so there are much better people to listen to here than I.That being said, here's my two cents: The only way to find out what works for you is to try it and see if it works. I thought I was a "pantser"(non-outliner), but every time I'd get halfway through a novel I'd falter out. So I tried outlining, and if I was too in depth the story would bore me.
What I'm currently doing is making a very, VERY bare start to finish outline of just the gist of my story, then outlining more as I write the story to make sure I can keep things straight, mark any ways I want the story to change, and keep track of things I definitely need to change/fix after the first draft.
I recently ran into this post that may help you. It's a 7-point story structure and you can basically plug in your idea to this formula. Not, this is far from a full outline, but it can help make sure your story has a clean flow, and you can expand from there.
http://ryanlanz.com/2014/12/20/how-th...
Then again, you may decide that isn't for you at all. The truth is, I know many writers, and to this day I've yet to see a single piece of technical advice that is universally good or bad. Just gotta try some stuff and see what works best for you.
Best of luck!
First of all congrats on jumping in and doing it, starting to write. I too am writing my first book, so my advise won't be as solid lol. I am 2 1/2 chapters in and have tweaked my 1st chapter 3 times already. I don't think many writers edit or revise by chapter but my brain won't let me move forward until I am comfortable. One thing I have learned from allthe amazing people on here and their advice is none of us are the same and there isn't really any set rules to writing. Once you start and just put your thoughts down, your style and process will show it self.
Tanya wrote: "Hi Guys,I've always wanted to write a novel and I have already written a page for it.
However, I'm finding it hard to grasp what I should listen to or not and since then I've been in a writers ..."
Hi Tanya,
I published one book and am working on the second, so as above, not a wide range of experience. But with that said, why don't you try writing a short story. When I started writing again (after a hiatus), I was just writing for me without the goal of writing a novel (much less a series). It's far less daunting. Develop a feel for writing with the short story and then think about something more robust.
The downside for me was I had a rough idea of my series' plot when I started, so book one required some significant re-writing once I fleshed it all out. However, unlike others, I'm a natural pantser. I have the storyline for the whole series developed, but it's all in my head. For me, an outline is stifling and I can't work that way.
With that said, writing an epic series with a large cast of characters does require notes to prevent discrepancies. So, I am now a "forced" plotter after the fact. I finished the draft of book one, then went back and built out the history of the planet, then edited book one to reflect it consistently. Not as efficient, but it's what works best for me. I don't recommend it to anyone else, though. ;-)
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One other word of advice, you really have to feel connected to your story and the characters. If you don't, then maybe you're not writing the right story. Just something to think about.
I just write whatever enters my brain first. Don't think just write, then go back and edit. Right from the heart, not what's expected in your genre. You never know you could be writing the next it novel. Um...yeah, that's all I got. Oh, sites like fictionpress are a great place to start and get feedback.
Just write!Don't worry about what people say you should or shouldn't do; especially not in the first draft. Just sit down and start writing.
What's right for others may not be right for you: some people have an outline that's so detailed there's not much more for them to do but flesh out the scenes, some don't bother with an outline at all, for example.
There's no right or wrong way to do it, and you won't find the way that's right for you if you spend too much time worrying about it. So, just do what feels right for you, and enjoy yourself doing it.
To piggy back Victoria's point and emphasize the one I made in my first comment: Try, try, try! Don't start one way, produce something you don't like and decide you can't write. Just approach it a little differently next time. No matter your approach, as you keep on trying and trying, you'll get better and better over time. Sometimes over very short matters of time.
Let the story be bigger than you. Close your eyes, I play meditation music, and picture it as a movie. What happens next? Try to see it. Let your mind wander. What is suspenseful? What is the worse thing that could happen? Let that happen. How do they get out of the situation? Hope this helps. Best of luck :D
Tommy wrote: "To piggy back Victoria's point and emphasize the one I made in my first comment: Try, try, try! Don't start one way, produce something you don't like and decide you can't write. Just approach it a ..."Well said!
Great advice guys :) thank you so much!
There's a question I've always wanted to ask "pantsers"(which I thought I was until recently). One of the most popular answers I've seen given as to why they don't like to outline is because they feel less excited about writing the story since they've already written it in a different form. This makes sense to me, but I was wondering: How does someone with that outlook deal with editing/rewriting?
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To answer your question, however, as a pantser I approach editing/revising from a very holistic point of view. What crucial elements did I want in my book? Did I include all those elements? Did I complete all the character arcs? Is the dialogue crisp, clean, and realistic? Are there any plot holes? These are the types of questions I ask myself as I read and re-read my first draft. Once I'm comfortable with the second draft, I send it to a whole bunch of independent readers who punch a lot more holes in the story and really challenge it in a way I'm unable because of my writer bias. The next phase of revising is focused on responding to their comments!
That's not exactly the reason I don't outline. I don't outline because I prefer to let the story tell itself, and only end up changing my outline constantly if I bother with one, so I stopped bothering, and just started writing; I get a lot more done that way. Plus,it's more fun, because I can really get in to the story, and what happens next is sometimes as much of a surprise to me as it will - hopefully - be to the reader.Once I have the first draft done, I go through it making sure I have all the points it needs to have in it to lead it to the conclusion I ended up with; changing what no longer works, and adding or removing scenes as needed. Then I go through it a couple more times, adding more details where I was vague in my earlier drafts, tweaking descriptions and sentences to make them sound better, etc. Then I go through it again to check for obvious spelling and grammar issues I missed. At this point I set it aside for anything from a few days to a few weeks while I focus on writing something else, before going back to it and giving it a final read through, and a final edit.
It works out that it gets about three or four drafts, then about as many editing phases... Sometimes more.
Both of your guys' answers make sense. It's just something I've been curious about and decided to ask here haha.David, the way you deal with first draft to rewrites sounds similar to the way I'm attempting to approach outline to first draft at the moment. My outline isn't very technical, it's just a rough, bare run through of the story from beginning to end, chapter by chapter. Then I'll go over that, make sure I got everything I wanted to in there and that I like everything and am satisfied, THEN I'll attempt to write that first draft.
A new approach, so far I'm confident in it :)
I'm a pantser too, but I always know the beginning and the end for some reason. Getting there is a bit of an adventure at times. Having said that, I usually know several of the crucial points to make sure I get to along the way.I don't usually plan things out, but just write the story sequentially. Every now and then I pain myself into a corner, but a bit of thinking and a cup of coffee (or two, or three), and I usually figure my way out.
Leonie wrote: "I don't usually plan things out, but just write the story sequentially. Every now and then I pain myself into a corner, but a bit of thinking and a cup of coffee (or two, or three), and I usually figure my way out."Change the coffee to tea (or cocoa) and that could be me, LOL!
Thanks for the advice guys :) how can you write without an outline. I've seen so many videos and articles and they all mention that you need an outline to write a novel.
Tanya wrote: "Thanks for the advice guys :) how can you write without an outline. I've seen so many videos and articles and they all mention that you need an outline to write a novel."I was at the Newcastle Writers Festival yesterday, listening to Garth Nix speak. He doesn't use an outline either. He seems to have done OK :) It's a variable thing - we all work in different ways, but no matter how you work, it's important to write.
I could spend all day procrastinating, writing an outline, but if I don't actually write my story as a result, what's the point? Others can't do a thing without an outline because that's the way their brains work. You have to figure out what works for you. Good luck!
Tanya wrote: "Thanks for the advice guys :) how can you write without an outline. I've seen so many videos and articles and they all mention that you need an outline to write a novel."All you have to do is look at a few semi-successful authors, Say Stephen King and JK Rowling(gosh, I hope you've heard of them...). Rowling has trunks full of outlines, character bios, sketches, maps, etc. She outlines and pre-plans like crazy and poured tons of time into this work before writing page one of The Philosopher's(later, Sorcerer's) Stone.
Then there's King, who detests outlines and has gone as far as to say they are the sign of a hack writer(paraphrasing). He even said he doesn't research much unless it's for something simple he needs to have correct, such a geographic location.
Yet, both have done moderately well. What they have in common is a love for writing and a work ethic towards getting their stuff done. If you have those two things, I think the process will kind of forge itself. That's the stage I'm at right now, and I'm honestly loving the process of discovering myself as a writer.
Exactly... You have to figure out what works for you!The same is said about routines as is said about outlines: some people say you can't write without a routine, and yet plenty of people manage to do so.
Some people need outlines and/or routines. Some don't need them. Some people need absolute silence to write. Some need noise. Everyone is different, and it's the end result that matters, not the steps needed to get there. So try different things, and see what works best for you.
How can I work out what's best for me when I don't know where to start :(
Tanya wrote: "How can I work out what's best for me when I don't know where to start :("The best answer I can come up with is just start. As David said, he's not an outliner, but he does keep notes. Maybe start there? Make some notes about the story you want to write and just see where that takes you? Maybe it'll make you want to just dive in, maybe it'll make you want a clearer picture and you'll want to outline.
It's all so circumstantial and a person by person thing that that's a hard one to answer.
Tanya wrote: "How can I work out what's best for me when I don't know where to start :("That's a difficult question to answer.
The best advice I can give is to start - as Tommy said - with making notes, and see where that takes you.
Also, maybe try some exercises designed to help with writer's block, and see if they help you in any way. Then adapt - or reject - them as needed to form your own writing process.
I'm a little late to the new thread here, but I'm a pantser because I'm a big picture person. Regardless of what it is (work, life, etc), I cull out the clutter. As a result, I find the process of detailing out a story too tedious...I'd never write anything if that was my starting point. With that said and I think I mentioned this somewhere above, my style does require some backtracking or re-writing, but it works for me. I edit as I go, adding bits and pieces throughout the story. This does slow me down in comparison to other authors, though.
Yesterday, Garth Nix said something that I think every writer should take to heart. What it boiled down to was that in his opinion, the writers who talk most about what they're going to write, seem to write the least.As a result, the best advice is just to write, as everyone has said. It doesn't matter what you write, or even if it's good. Just write, and you'll figure it out.
Leonie wrote: "Yesterday, Garth Nix said something that I think every writer should take to heart. What it boiled down to was that in his opinion, the writers who talk most about what they're going to write, seem..."Great advice!
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David, the way you deal with first draft to rewrites sounds similar to the way I'm ..."
Great discussion, thanks for bringing up the topic, Tommy! And good luck with your new approach :)
As I've said before, there is no right or wrong answer to the question only a right way for each individual author to write. Whatever works best for you is the "right" approach :)
I know it's been awhile, but this is what my approach has turned into, in case anyone else wants to try it because it helped me a lot because outlining and writing both make me look at the story in different ways.First, I start at the beginning(unorthodox, I know) and I outline very freely. No Roman numerals or alphabets/numbers. Just *1. and then describe the chapter to whatever degree it flows for me. Some chapters will get more details than others.
Then I outline until I get stuck, and when I do get stuck, start writing the first draft. So, say I outline up to chapter 7, I'll then start writing the story, and in writing it, will dislodge whatever was blocking me in the first place. Then once I'm caught up, or near caught up, I use the new ideas from the writing, and switch back to the outline.
So basically, I'm an outliner. The entire outline will be done before the first draft is, but not before the first draft is started, if that makes sense haha.
I'm sure this isn't a new approach, but it's been working wonders for me, so I decided to share it in case someone is where I was, stuck on an outline not knowing where to take the story. Hope it helps. And if not, at least we're chatting haha.
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I think of the first chapter and the last scene, then try to work on an outline that gets me from beginning to end.I knew my last book had to end with a citywide riot, so that helped me bring in people during the story who had something to riot about, a stake in the situation. I think experts usually recommend having an endpoint to aim at. It helps me, otherwise I'd roam around in coversationland forever.
After writing five books and fifteen short stories of varying lengths, I've discovered that I'm a soft plotter. I tend to start a story with two things in mind: a beginning scene and a general idea of the story's end. My idea of an outline is a simple summary paragraph of the story that then gets expanded into one-sentence summaries of each chapter as I figure out more details of longer books. I tend to keep my outlines short and vague because more detailed outlines give me very little room to play and experiment. I actually threw out my current novella's outline because it was stifling my creativity.Anyway, I write my main scenes in (mostly) chronological order for the first draft. Then I go back to add in transition scenes and scene expansions in the second draft, so that the story makes sense from beginning to end. I research as I write and keep notes on the characters and the world so that I can stay consistent. The third draft is my time to get really picky with details, language use, and themes.
Most of the time, I get through my plot by asking two questions: "Where does this situation lead?" and "How will this character react to this situation?" Writer's block comes when I can't answer either question.
Weirdly enough, I write my first and second drafts in two stages. I typically write half of a book, rewrite the first half, and then begin writing the second half. Once I've written the major scenes in the second half, I'll go back to the story's halfway point and rewrite from there. It isn't until I hit the third draft that I read the story fully from start to finish. Does anyone else have this type of approach?
My advice is to outline. If you need a basic guide for how to do this, check out Story Structure Demystified. I found it pretty useful, but the same stuff has been taught in writing classes. Basically, books generally consist of four acts (movies have three). Once you learn how to pace the story, you'll find the rest is simple. That doesn't mean you need to stick to a formula, but it's very useful when you are having trouble pacing the action and plot. Anyway, outlining will keep you from staring at the screen, because you will know what comes next. Personally, I outline extensively. We're talking 3-4 thousand words. It sounds like a lot, but you'll find it saves time when you're writing and editing, because the plot and pacing are already solid and you can focus on other things.
Hi J.N, I admire people who could outline extensively and stick to it firm and unvarying. What if there is a spark of inspiration while you are writing? Some idea so brilliant that you could not neglect. Do you go back the storyline and change it? What if, because of this new idea, your story is heading to a different ending?
Coral wrote: "Hi J.N, I admire people who could outline extensively and stick to it firm and unvarying. What if there is a spark of inspiration while you are writing? Some idea so brilliant that you could not ne..."I try to leave wiggle-room when I outline because, inevitably, the characters will do something that I don't expect. I want to leave room for their spontaneity because that helps keep the story fresh and exciting for me. While J.N. outlines extensively, my idea of an outline is a list of the book's chapter titles and a one sentence summary of what happens in each. Every writer has a little different approach to writing so find what works for you and stick with it. Don't be afraid to experiment, don't be afraid to fail, and don't be afraid to cut something that isn't working. After all, experimentation is half of the fun of art anyway.
I've always wanted to write a novel and I have already written a page for it.
However, I'm finding it hard to grasp what I should listen to or not and since then I've been in a writers block.
When I'm writing I think of too many things other than just writing and I don't know what I'm supposed to do!!
Please help,
Tanya