The Pickwick Club discussion

Dear Fellow Pickwickians,

Here we go with the second installment of David Copperfield which originally people had to wait a month for but happily we don't. Chapter 4 is titled "I Fall Into Disgrace" , David has now returned to a home that is very different and not very nice. He goes to his new bedroom and cries himself to sleep. I thought it odd that Dickens tells us David's mother and Peggotty come to look for him. They're looking for him? Where did they think he went? It would have made more sense to me if it would have said they came to comfort him. But the awful Mr. Murdstone finds them there and reprimands David’s mother for not being firm with her son. There was a part here that I found strange because it seemed to me that Mr. Murdstone and David's mother actually did seem to care about each other:

"He drew her to him, whispered in her ear, and kissed her. I knew as well, when I saw my mother's head lean down upon his shoulder, and her arm touch his neck—I knew as well that he could mould her pliant nature into any form he chose, as I know, now, that he did it.

'Go you below, my love,' said Mr. Murdstone. 'David and I will come down, together."

I guess there is someone out there for everyone. So I've been told anyway. I thought it was interesting when David would being "hiding out" from the rest of the world that he spent his time up in his room reading, which is exactly what I would have done when I wasn't plotting certain murders. But the books he read ! (I used the exclamation point just for certain grumps). I'm not sure I'll get them all but some of them were: Roderick Random, Peregrine Pickle, Humphry Clinker, Tom Jones, Gil Blas and The Arabian Nights. Dickens read them all before he was nine. I can't imagine understanding them before the age of nine. Oh, Robinson Crusoe just came to mind.

Soon Miss Jane Murdstone, Mr. Murdstone’s cruel sister, arrives to stay. I'm still trying to decide which one is more horrible. According to Dickens:

"a gloomy-looking lady she was; dark, like her brother, whom she greatly resembled in face and voice; and with very heavy eyebrows, nearly meeting over her large nose, as if, being disabled by the wrongs of her sex from wearing whiskers, she had carried them to that account."

I don't understand either of these people. Do they really enjoy being this horrible to other people or do they really think they are helping them become "firm", although why we have to be firm is beyond me. And Mr. Murdstone's beating David for not knowing his lessons even though it is because of him and his sister that David can't learn is horrible. Murdstone at that moment reminded me of Squeers. And when David bit him I was almost cheering. I'm glad David is being sent away, it almost has to be better than being with Murdstone and his sister.

In Chapter 6 " I enlarge my Circle of Acquaintance" all the other students and the headmaster return to the school from their separate homes where they had been during the holiday-time. We meet Mr.Creakle who terrifies David and shows what type of character he is just by this:

'I have the happiness of knowing your father-in-law,' whispered Mr. Creakle, taking me by the ear; 'and a worthy man he is, and a man of a strong character. He knows me, and I know him. Do YOU know me? Hey?' said Mr. Creakle, pinching my ear with ferocious playfulness.

The headmaster’s wife and daughter are quiet and thin women, and it seems that they sympathize with the boys. Apparently there was a son who dared to argue with his father over his cruel treatment of the students and of his mother. His father had thrown him out and Mrs. Creakle and her daughter are still "in a sad way ever since" David is worried about the boys returning because of the pasteboard placard he must wear on his back. Tommy Traddles is the first boy to return from holiday and befriends David, which helps David befriend the other boys as they return. And that brings me to something else I got to look up. Tommy Traddles was based on a real person:

"Sir Thomas Noon Talfourd (1795-1854) — barrister, jurist, Member of Parliament for Reading, Berkshire), and playwright. Although the pair met in 1836 through the agency of novelist Harrison Ainsworth, their relationship was cemented by their common interest in the May 1837 draft of his copyright bill, which finally passed into law five years later. In his copyright suit against Peter Parley's Illuminated Library for its piracy of A Christmas Carol, Talfourd represented Dickens, who beat the pirate but found it was a mere Pyrrhic victory as Talfourd was unable to collect any damages from the bankrupt publishers.

Despite any substantive evidence to support the identification, it is universally recognized that the novelist based the character of Tommy Traddles on Talfourd, for whom Dickens published a laudatory obituary in Household Words on 25 March 1854. In Tommy Traddles Dickens did indicate something of the fine pathetic quality of his friend, Judge Talfourd. Although Dickens and Talfourd were not contemporaries or schoolmates as were David Copperfield and Tommy Traddles, in his personal diligence, gentle disposition, and journalistic output, Talfourd does indeed seem to resemble Traddles.

Talfourd held a place of some prominence in the legal, political, and literary world when Dickens became acquainted with him and, in 1837, dedicated to him the book publication of Pickwick. The dedication, wrote Dickens, was in tribute to Talfourd's important work in the matter of copyright legislation; it was also a token of Dickens's "fervent admiration" of Talfourd's fine qualities of head and heart, and "a memorial of the most gratifying friendship I have ever contracted." Dickens had no friend, wrote Forster, to whom he was more attached than he was to Talfourd. The association of the two men was frequent. Talfourd was vice-chairman at the Pickwick celebration dinner and took part also in celebrations commemorating the publication of other of Dickens's books."


One more thing, or maybe two, in the part of the chapter that we are told that Creakle had thrown his son out, after the line "Mrs. and Miss Creakle had been in a sad way, ever since" there was in the original manuscript this passage:

"I heard that Mr. Creakle, on account of certain religious opinions he held, was one of the Elect and Chosen - terms which certainly none of us understood in the least then if any body understands them now - and that the man with the wooden leg (whose name was Tungay) was another. I heard that the man with the wooden leg had preached (Traddles' father, according to Traddles, had positively heard him) and had frightened women into fits by raving about a Pit he said he saw, with I don't know how many billions and trillions of pretty babies born for no other purpose than to be cast into it. I heard that Mr. Creakle's son doubted the clear-sightedness of the man with the wooden leg and had once held some remonstrance with his father about the discipline of the school on an occasion of its being very cruelly exercized, and was supposed to have objected, besides, that the Elect had no business to ill-use his mother. I heard that Mr. Creakle had turned him out of doors in consequence, and that it had nearly broken Mrs. and Miss Creakle's hearts."

And finally, the last line of the chapter which reads, "There was no shadowy picture of his footsteps, in the garden that I dreamed of walking in all night. " originally had ended this way "in the garden that I dreamed of - the garden that I picked up shells and pebbles in, with little Em'ly, all night.

Ok, I am off in search of illustrations, have fun discussing things.

I'm quite glad the boys returned as at last David has found some comfort and company in them–even at the expense of his money. It's just striking to me how much those boys are much more accepting of him as opposed to almost all of the adults.

Chapter 4 and 5 were surprisingly emotional for me to read as I really felt saddened while learning of David's situation, and it's not even something I can relate to as I had a happy childhood and my parents remain together and happily married to this day. I guess it's the thought of someone so small being treated so unfairly.

Kim wrote: "There was a part here that I found strange because it seemed to me that Mr. Murdstone and David's mother actually did seem to care about each other:"

I picked that out too, Kim. Perhaps Mr. Murdstone is a pleasant gentleman when he is wooing a woman, and his "firmness" comes out when it comes to discipline.

I don't understand either of these people. Do they really enjoy being this horrible to other people or do they really think they are helping them become "firm"

I'm also trying to figure out if they think they are doing the right thing by this way of discipline and "being firm", or if they actually enjoy this type of power over people? I was disgusted by Miss Murdstone's declaration that "Generally speaking, I don't like boys. How d'ye do, boy?" She couldn't even call David by his name, and just resorted to "boy".

Kim wrote: "Every time Peggotty loses a button I wonder why she doesn't make or buy, I'm not sure which one she would do, an a bigger size dress, just one size up should do it."

Yeah...perhaps she needs a dress laced up with ribbon so she can let it in and out when needed. But then we wouldn't have the humor of envisioning all of these buttons lying all over the ground. :)

Mr. Barkis tells David to write to Peggotty and tell her "Barkis is willing" which David does although he has no idea what it means. I certainly hope she is willing, marrying Mr. Barkis would certainly be better than living with the Murdstones although I'm not sure she would leave David's mother.

As soon as I read that Mr. Barkis said "Did she make 'em, now?", I knew what was coming! And then I laughed at his message to Peggoty, and that David would have no idea what he was talking about. But I'm with you, Kim. As much as I would like to see Peggoty escape the Murdstones, I don't think she would leave Clara behind.

The exciting thing about this chapter is that I got to look things up it seems that the school David attends is based on a real school that Dickens attended:

Thanks for the info on the Wellington House, Kim. That was interesting!

Also, thanks again for the illustrations Kim. I think I'm going to end up sticking with my non-illustrated book, so I really appreciate you posting them.

The illustration of little Davey sitting down for his meal with his "friend" the waiter really conveys his vulnerability by the way that he appears so small in his chair with the large spread before him.

And isn't that a painting of a person in the upper left portrait hanging on the wall behind David?

Renato wrote: "I'm quite glad the boys returned as at last David has found some comfort and company in them–even at the expense of his money."

I agree, Renato. I was worried for the return of the boys, and was of course suspicious of J. Steerforth taking David's money. But when it turned out that the food was shared among all the boys and there turned out to be some camaraderie there, I was a bit more at ease. I hope the boys continue to provide David with some comfort and the horrible sign on his back is of no consequence. :)

Chapter 4 and 5 were surprisingly emotional for me to read as I really felt saddened while learning of David's situation, and it's not even something I can relate to as I had a happy childhood and my parents remain together and happily married to this day. I guess it's the thought of someone so small being treated so unfairly.

Yes, I felt some deep emotions while reading these chapters too. Dickens sure has a way with tugging at the heartstrings when it comes to children.

My favorite passage took place in Chapter IV, when Peggoty is whispering to David through the keyhole:

'School. Near London,' was Peggotty's answer. I was obliged to get her to repeat it, for she spoke it the first time quite down my throat, in consequence of my having forgotten to take my mouth away from the keyhole and put my ear there; and though her words tickled me a good deal, I didn't hear them.

Kim wrote: "There was a part here that I found strange because it seemed to me that Mr. Murdstone and David's mother actually did seem to care about each other:"

I think she cared about him. But I think he was looking for control, for someone to fulfill functions he needed fulfilled, for presumably sexual pleasure. But I see no indication that he cared about her.

Kim wrote: " When David and Mr. Barkis continue on Mr. Barkis tells David to write to Peggotty and tell her "Barkis is willing" which David does although he has no idea what it means. I certainly hope she is willing,"

I found that very strange. Barkis seems mostly interested in her light pastry. We find out later, but I can't be specific now because it would be a spoiler, that it's even stranger than that.

Kim wrote: "Dickens was sent to Wellington House Classical and Commercial Academy, run by the sadistic William Jones, who was the original for Mr. Creakle, "

And I bet Dickens greatly enjoyed writing those chapters. Payback at last.

Everyman wrote: "I found that very strange. Barkis seems mostly interested in her light pastry. We find out later, but I can't be specific now because it would be a spoiler, that it's even stranger than that."

"To a man's heart is through his stomach"? Perhaps Barkis wanted to get to know the woman a bit better who could bake such yummy pastries. But it sounds like there is some strangeness ahead...

David is one busy lad. From the relative harmony of life with his widowed mother to the "enchantment" and freedom of the boathouse and then back to a much more gloomy and foreboding home where he and his mother seem to be totally controlled by Murdstone. Then he is off to school where David is literally a marked individual, and yet he finds another form of family when he meets his new schoolmates. Steerforth's commendeering of David's money does turn out to be a shared feast so all seems to be unfolding in a manner where David will be part of a group of caring (the students, at least) people.

The first six chapters are remarkable in how much ground has been covered, and how many motifs have been introduced. Families, both happy and sad, love, both innocent and contrived, the sense of a home, rejection, loyalty, loss and several touches of fairy tales seem effortlessly woven together. Humour in the characters of Peggoty, Ham, waiters and the schoolboys contrast with the sinister Murdstone and the schoolmaster.

Kim wrote: "

My Musical Breakfast

Both illustrations in this installment are from chapter 5."

As Linda said above, thanks Kim for all the background and illustrations.

Peter wrote: "the sinister Murdstone"

Peter, I know you previously mentioned the nature terminology found in the names - stone, field, etc. But I can't help but think of the word "murder" when I read Mr. Murdstone's name. I have to catch myself in adding in that extra syllable. I hope that his name is not a form of foreshadowing.

Everyman wrote: "But I think he was looking for control, for someone to fulfill functions he needed fulfilled, for presumably sexual pleasure. But I see no indication that he cared about her."

You're probably right, especially given the scene where he is laughing with his friends about David after talking about "bewitching the pretty little widow".

Linda wrote: "Peter wrote: "the sinister Murdstone"

Peter, I know you previously mentioned the nature terminology found in the names - stone, field, etc. But I can't help but think of the word "murder" when I ..."

Linda

Dickens certainly has great fun coming up with and using weird and wacky names in his novels. Your suspicions may turn out to be well founded.

Linda wrote: "Peter wrote: "the sinister Murdstone"

Peter, I know you previously mentioned the nature terminology found in the names - stone, field, etc. But I can't help but think of the word "murder" when I ..."

I had the same impression; the two syllables bring to mind bludgeoning or crushing. His temperament is certainly brutal. I wonder how far Dickens got in imagining the Murdstones' parents, since they are both so controlling. Jane Murdstone description as a "metallic lady" is curious. (An Iron Lady?) Did they really have steel purses? Even her jewellery is "little steel fetters and rivets". Like her bag with its heavy chain, she has prison stamped all over her. The passage where she takes the keys from Clara (and sleeps with them under the pillow!), followed by Murdstone's discussion over whose house it is now, is awful.

Vanessa wrote: "Linda wrote: "Peter wrote: "the sinister Murdstone"

Peter, I know you previously mentioned the nature terminology found in the names - stone, field, etc. But I can't help but think of the word "m..."

Yes. The description of Jane Murdstone is a classic. I found the reference to the keys especially interesting. More foreshadowing, or just a great way to summarize her restrictive manner and nature?

Thanks again, Kim, for the illustrations and invaluable research. How interesting that this is a record of some of Dickens's own experiences at school. It is even more autobiographical than I had originally thought.

Thank goodness that corporal punishment is outlawed in schools today. It was the headmaster who deserved to have a shaming placard on his back, if anyone did. It was so, so cruel that they had him dumped at school in the holidays. At least his companion was not cruel. Dickens has such a clever way of turning the screw until I think that I can't take any more misery and then releases the pleasure with humour.

My grandmother was born around 1876/77 not long after the shuffling of this mortal coil of our beloved Mr Dickens. She was a complete Dickens aficionado, though my mother, even though she too was a devoted reader, would never countenance Dickens as she couldn't bear the thought of workhouse children and tragedy. I wish I had known then, what I later found out, just how spectacularly humorous he is. My mother loved to laugh. She would so much have appreciated his humour.

Yes Linda, I also loved the passage with Peggotty at the keyhole talking to Davy. Again Dickens manages to inject humour into an otherwise heartbreaking scene.

Hilary wrote: "Yes Linda, I also loved the passage with Peggotty at the keyhole talking to Davy. Again Dickens manages to inject humour into an otherwise heartbreaking scene."

Peggotty at the keyhole talking to David is an important point. When we add this scene to the one mentioned by Vanessa where Jane Murdstone sleeps on the house keys we get a clear image of how incarcerated David and his mother have become in their own house. The Murdstone's have certainly taken over.

Very good point, Peter, the idea of incarceration of both mother and son hadn't occurred to me.

I don't want to seem harsh on an 'imprisoned' Clara. She is very young, a widow and has come under the authority of TWO Murdstones, but I still can't help wanting to shake her where David is concerned. He is young and helpless and can't even depend on his own mother for succour. I suppose that any backbone she had may have been crushed out of her, but I still find it infuriating that Peggotty is his only friend in that house.

Hilary wrote: "I don't want to seem harsh on an 'imprisoned' Clara. She is very young, a widow and has come under the authority of TWO Murdstones, but I still can't help wanting to shake her where David is conce..."

Peggoty may well have two children she has been raising ... Clara and David. While Peggotty has no children of her own that she is responsible for, it appears she has a mother and a son to raise, or at least keep a sharp and keen eye out for during these early chapters.

Peggotty certainly has a mother's devotion, to both of them. The way she bursts from a hedge almost seems heroic, and comic at the same time, just as bursting from her buttons makes her larger than life. (I'm hoping Barkis was impressed by this, and not just the pastry...)

Peter, you are so right. Peggotty was indeed the chief carer. Now Clara has to struggle to grow up quickly under the watchful eyes of those horrible Murdstones.

Haha Vanessa, you conjured up a lovely image of Peggotty. She's someone I'd love to know.

Vanessa wrote: "Peggotty certainly has a mother's devotion, to both of them. The way she bursts from a hedge almost seems heroic, and comic at the same time, just as bursting from her buttons makes her larger tha..."

She is a grand creation. Both full of and larger than life.

"Peter wrote: "the sinister Murdstone"

I have been trying to imagine what the life of the Murdstones was before he married the pretty little widow. Did he and his sister live together? If so, who did they have to kick around? (Has to have been somebody; I don't see them surviving together without somebody to kick.) What sort of experiences made them the way they are?

Hilary wrote: "I don't want to seem harsh on an 'imprisoned' Clara. She is very young, a widow and has come under the authority of TWO Murdstones, but I still can't help wanting to shake her where David is conce..."

That's not being harsh. She is a wimp.

I was about to add "but of course that's how women were raised to be then," but then we have the examples of Peggotty and Jane Murdstone to prove that women didn't have to be weak and willing to be bossed around.

So much for the fierceness of the mother bear protecting her cub.

Hee hee, Everyman, don't you hold back from saying it like it is. You're right though. I sort of assumed that the mother bear instinct is present in mothers, unless they have some terrible psychiatric illness, just as I expect the father bear instinct to be present in men.

Hilary wrote: "just as I expect the father bear instinct to be present in men.
"

Oooh, zing, considering that the father bears go wandering off and pay no attention whatsoever to their offspring. I wasn't QUITE that bad!

Hilary wrote: "I don't want to seem harsh on an 'imprisoned' Clara. She is very young, a widow and has come under the authority of TWO Murdstones, but I still can't help wanting to shake her where David is conce..."

I feel your pain Hilary. I know it's different times, but if I were in Clara's position, I would thrash Mr Murdstone with the cane he dare touch my child with, before booting him out.

I find this situation even worse and more upsetting than poor Florence with her father, in Dombey and son. I think it's because a woman should be more protective of her children. Where are her maternal instincts? Also, I find it an issue because Clara, David and Peggotty were doing just fine without a man. What was she thinking?! Well, I know she was giving in to social expectations, however, when people in the village are clearly gossiping about the match, I doubt they agree with it either. Alarms bells should have happened for Clara from the start when Murdstone was telling her to be more firm and colder with her son. This is the first time I've read this story. I live in hope that David can find more happy moments with his mother and Peggotty.

BTW, murd has the same pronunciation as the word 'shit' in French. Excuse the language, but whether my accident or design, I think Dickens has hit the nail on the head with that one!

Everyman wrote: "Hilary wrote: "I don't want to seem harsh on an 'imprisoned' Clara. She is very young, a widow and has come under the authority of TWO Murdstones, but I still can't help wanting to shake her where..."

I agree Everyman, she is a wimp and her poor son is suffering because of it. Can you imagine Edith Granger in that situation?!

Linda wrote: "Kim wrote: "There was a part here that I found strange because it seemed to me that Mr. Murdstone and David's mother actually did seem to care about each other:"

I picked that out too, Kim. Perha..."

Yes, and it's very funny that Miss Murdstone, who would open her acquaintance with David by saying that generally she does not like boys - in a way, she is not alone there, cf. Aunt Betsy -, would a second later reproach David with wanting manners.

About the Murdstones: I am quite sure that there are people who enjoy having power over others and to make people feel it as much as possible. Simply speaking, Mr. Murdstone and his sister are sadistic psychopaths, I would say, and they have found a ready victim in David's mother who is so emotionally dependend on Murdstone - the passage Kim quoted shows her leaning on and caressing her husband but not her husband showing tenderness towards her - that she won't even stand up for her boy. At that moment I actually despised her.

When I read that passage in which Murdstone - I will not even pay the respect of calling him Mr. to him - leads David into his room and canes him, I own that, being a father to two wonderful children, the tears were falling from my eyes because it was so terrible. The stupid thing was that I was sitting in a café and people gave me strange looks so that I pointed out to them they should read Dickens if they ever wanted a writer who would really take them into a story ... and I was glad that David at least got a good bite at Murdstone's claw. I would have wished he had bitten his finger off completely and that swine would have died from tetanus.

Did you actually notice that Clara told her son off for hurting somebody she loved?

Hilary wrote: "Hee hee, Everyman, don't you hold back from saying it like it is. You're right though. I sort of assumed that the mother bear instinct is present in mothers, unless they have some terrible psychi..."

The teacher instinct is kicking in here. If I was reading this with a class, this would be a great time to do a psychological profile on or counselling session with Clara.

Linda wrote: "As soon as I read that Mr. Barkis said "Did she make 'em, now?", I knew what was coming! And then I laughed at his message to Peggoty, and that David would have no idea what he was talking about. But I'm with you, Kim. As much as I would like to see Peggoty escape the Murdstones, I don't think she would leave Clara behind."

How very wise of Barkis to let his heart follow where his stomach has proceeded.

Linda wrote: "Peter wrote: "the sinister Murdstone"

Peter, I know you previously mentioned the nature terminology found in the names - stone, field, etc. But I can't help but think of the word "murder" when I ..."

In reading "Murdstone" I actually think more of the French word "merde".

Tristram wrote: "Did you actually notice that Clara told her son off for hurting somebody she loved?"

I noticed that Tristram. Sad someone can be so controlled and so quickly. Although Murdstone has caused the issue, there is clearly something seriously lacking in Clara to be so easily manipulated against her own child.

Peter wrote: "Vanessa wrote: "Peggotty certainly has a mother's devotion, to both of them. The way she bursts from a hedge almost seems heroic, and comic at the same time, just as bursting from her buttons make..."

Peggotty actually reminds me of one of my grandmothers, who was very tough on the outside but very nice and loving and caring when you knew her.

Everyman wrote: ""Peter wrote: "the sinister Murdstone"

I have been trying to imagine what the life of the Murdstones was before he married the pretty little widow. Did he and his sister live together? If so, wh..."

What sort of experience made the Murdstones the way they are? Without wanting to find an excuse for them - I certainly hate them too much for that -, before Murdstone beats David, his sister points out that that was the way her brother was brought up and that it did not cause any harm to him. So I think violence and sadism run in the family. It is quite typical that such a one should be well acquainted with Mr. Creakle.

Kate wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Hilary wrote: "I don't want to seem harsh on an 'imprisoned' Clara. She is very young, a widow and has come under the authority of TWO Murdstones, but I still can't help wanting t..."

Aaaah, Edith Granger! What a woman!

Kate wrote: "BTW, murd has the same pronunciation as the word 'shit' in French. Excuse the language, but whether my accident or design, I think Dickens has hit the nail on the head with that one! "

Excuse my message 42, which contains the same thought, but when I read a thread I comment on messages spontaneously without reading all the following posts.

Tristram wrote: "Kate wrote: "BTW, murd has the same pronunciation as the word 'shit' in French. Excuse the language, but whether my accident or design, I think Dickens has hit the nail on the head with that one! "..."

LOL. I do exactly the same Tristram. Hence I often repeat myself or what others might have already said!

Tristram wrote: "What sort of experience made the Murdstones the way they are ... It is quite typical that such a one should be well acquainted with Mr. Creakle."

The name Creakle makes me think of 'creaking' bones, from feeling so sore and no doubt walking gingerly, for days after a beating. Bones creak because the body is bend over with the pain, for a long time.

Ah, Everyman, I was really thinking of 'human' father bears. I didn't remember or probably didn't even know that real father bears didn't care for their offspring. It is obvious that you are a highly protective papa and grandpa bear.

Certainly Edith would not have stood for that 'Merde'stone nonsense. She would have been more likely to box Mr Sadist's ears before he had a chance to lay even a finger on poor David.

Tristram, you have painted such an evocative picture of your tear-shedding in that café in Germany. I fear I shall have to claim those tears vicariously as I was so distraught and angry that my tear ducts refused to succumb. I have a very vivid image of your promoting Dickens to the onlookers. How proud CD would be.

Good thought, Kate. Mr Creakle, it would appear, deserved every creaking bone in his body. It can be a vicious circle. Meanness and spite can lead to pain or indeed vice versa. He obviously didn't treat his own son with compassion, so 'the boys' will simply be a scourge on his otherwise perfect life; well if he could rid himself of his wife and daughter and live as a hermit, by himself, with only his own company: me, myself, alone, he might be better-humoured as he'd only have himself to fight with. Better still, a deserted island somewhat akin to the 'Lost' variety; bye Mr Creakle ...

Kate wrote: "I find this situation even worse and more upsetting than poor Florence with her father, in Dombey and son. I think it's because a woman should be more protective of her children. Where are her maternal instincts? Also, I find it an issue because Clara, David and Peggotty were doing just fine without a man."

Good points, Hilary and Kate. Of course I was also appalled at Clara not coming to her son's defense, then I thought that "these were different times". But I also thought of how Peggoty is a kind gentle woman. I wonder if Clara is so young that she, in some regards, doesn't feel as a wife of Murdstone, but instead of a child? Having Mr. and Miss Murdstone take over the workings of the house, and having the keys taken away from her, she is more like David is treated. She must do as she is told, and is treated as a child, not as a an equal adult of the household.

BTW, murd has the same pronunciation as the word 'shit' in French. Excuse the language, but whether my accident or design, I think Dickens has hit the nail on the head with that one!

Ah...thanks for that Kate! Maybe with the proper pronunciation I can try and break myself of the "murder" association.

Tristram wrote: "Did you actually notice that Clara told her son off for hurting somebody she loved?"

I know. She is being brainwashed by Murdstone. Didn't we get a hint from David that she will turn into a different woman than David knew his mother to be in his early years? I was hoping she would be able to break free of this horrible mistake she made of this marriage, but from David's account it doesn't appear that that is going to happen.