Jane Austen July 2025 discussion

A separate board about Pride and Prejudice . . . for those of us rereading to chat with ALL of the spoilers!

Since I've read Pride and Prejudice a few times, I've decided to read the annotated version this year. I have an annotated edition edited by Patricia Meyer Spacks.

In my previous reads, I paid no attention to the introduction of Elizabeth. She is first introduced in chapter 2 and she is trimming a hat. The annotated edition that I am reading had this to say, "To introduce Elizabeth in the act of trimming a hat is the novelist's little joke. Elsewhere, Elizabeth shows little interest in self-adornment or in domestic activity."

That’s a shrewd point, Janelle! Austen is definitely sneaking something in under our guard there, making the heroine appear conventional when she is anything but.

I’m currently reading Belinda by Maria Edgeworth and she’s another unconventional heroine by the contemporary standards, when paragons of virtue, modesty, and feminine weakness were the order of the day. I’m imagining a secret cabal of female authors who are trying to subvert the status quo while pretending to uphold it (not really, of course; they were simply reflecting, each in their own individual way, a growing collective unease among the educated class with the constraints placed on female lives). As Austen said in a letter to one of her nieces, “pictures of perfection make me feel sick and wicked!”

Janelle wrote: "In my previous reads, I paid no attention to the introduction of Elizabeth. She is first introduced in chapter 2 and she is trimming a hat. The annotated edition that I am reading had this to say, ..."

Thank you very much for sharing that information. It is always interesting to know those details that the annotated editions bring💕

Abigail wrote: "That’s a shrewd point, Janelle! Austen is definitely sneaking something in under our guard there, making the heroine appear conventional when she is anything but.

I’m currently reading [book:Belin..."

The annotated edition does mention Maria Edgeworth and Frances Burney. Both of these were authors that Jane Austen read.

I have the annotated text by David Shapard. It's interesting how they describe 'trimming a hat' differently. His annotation talks about how Jane Austen spoke with her sister about whether she should add flowers or fruit to her own hat.

Did yours have the annotation for the line in Chapter 2 " When is your next ball to be, Lizzy?" It says Jane left off who the speaker was because "it would make the dialogue more immediately clear, but I do not write for such dull Elves." LOL!

I remember upon first reading of course not liking Mrs Bennet, but I'd be interested to hear what others think of Mr. Bennet--of course we like him bc he favors Elizabeth, but the more I think about his behavior the more I'm not sure I really do like him all that much. What do you think of him?

Cathie wrote: "I remember upon first reading of course not liking Mrs Bennet, but I'd be interested to hear what others think of Mr. Bennet--of course we like him bc he favors Elizabeth, but the more I think abou..."


I feel like you!! At first I loved him for his wit but with each new reading I see his character more clearly and I don't like him very much, especially for his neglect with his younger daughters

I agree. With each reading I find Darcy's criticism of Mr. Bennett more and more fitting, and frankly kinder and less scathing than deserved.

I'm looking forward to reading the David Shapard annotated edition and listening to Jennifer Ehle's read through on YouTube.

Melissa wrote: "I have the annotated text by David Shapard. It's interesting how they describe 'trimming a hat' differently. His annotation talks about how Jane Austen spoke with her sister about whether she shoul..."

Haha! My annotation does mention that line. Just saying that in the original text it is left in the same paragraph as the sister's speech.

Rebecca wrote: "I agree. With each reading I find Darcy's criticism of Mr. Bennett more and more fitting, and frankly kinder and less scathing than deserved."
Ah I don't remember exactly what he said, can't wait to get there! I love how Austen is able to criticize his behavior in such an subtle but for that reason even more meaningful way--we see his witty side but also the downsides of his tendency to retreat into his own bubble.

Caroline wrote: "Cathie wrote: "I remember upon first reading of course not liking Mrs Bennet, but I'd be interested to hear what others think of Mr. Bennet--of course we like him bc he favors Elizabeth, but the mo..."It will be interesting to see how both of the parents are depicted moving forward.

In Darcy's either first proposal or the letter he writes to explain himself he critiques Mr. Bennett for his lack of propriety shown not only by her mother and younger sisters, but also on occasion her father.
I've always thought back to the moment he humiliates Mary at the ball as the lack of propriety shown by Mr. Bennett as the event Darcy is referring back to. I could be wrong, but even my first reading of the book had that moment being striking for showing how off putting her father can be.

Rebecca wrote: "In Darcy's either first proposal or the letter he writes to explain himself he critiques Mr. Bennett for his lack of propriety shown not only by her mother and younger sisters, but also on occasion..."

That's the moment I think of too.

As always when I reread on P&P I notice how brilliant all the dialogue in the opening chapters is - its so sparkly, even more than JA’s other novels.

Re Mr Bennet - he definitely doesn’t stand up to close scrutiny! In the first chapter he says of his daughters: ‘They have none of them much to recommend them…They are all silly and ignorant like other girls; but Lizzy has something more of quickness than her sisters.’ He might just be winding Mrs Bennet up of course, but even to be saying such things about his own daughters! He makes it sound like Lizzy is the best of a bad lot.

Lisa wrote: "As always when I reread on P&P I notice how brilliant all the dialogue in the opening chapters is - its so sparkly, even more than JA’s other novels.

Re Mr Bennet - he definitely doesn’t stand up..."

Yes! I adore the first chapter of Pride and Prejudice! The dialogue is outstanding!

I think our view of Mr. Bennet tends to be highly colored by the film adaptations. There’s even one that shows a flashback of the moment when he humiliates Mary while Darcy’s voice is narrating the bit from his letter about Mr. Bennet’s impropriety.

Absent parents, parents giving inadequate supervision of their children, and inappropriately dictatorial parents are common tropes in the literature of the period—they seem to be regarded as a necessary prerequisite for a heroine. And it makes sense: if a young lady is making her entrance into society with responsible, loving parents at her back, she would have many fewer opportunities for getting into trouble as well as less opportunity for personal development. I think Austen is nodding to that tradition satirically in her portrayals of both Mr. and Mrs. Bennet, reducing the cartoon villainy common in lesser fiction to a more naturalistic level without giving up this essential component of heroine vulnerability.

Much of Austen’s earlier work shares this feature of creating characters and situations with reference to the literary tradition; her novels become less literary in this sense and more psychologically motivated as her career progresses.

I’m of two minds about how contemporary readers would have viewed Mr. Bennet. Girls were seen mostly as the purview of the mother, though the father did have a responsibility to prevent behaviors that would damage the daughter’s or the family’s reputation. It was unusual for a father to involve himself in a daughter’s education, either academically or morally, though he did set the tone for the family overall. But educated women were increasingly pushing back against the “normal” order of things in a girl’s raising (nod to those of you reading A Vindication of the Rights of Women as well as Belinda), so Austen might have been engaging in a bit of quiet advocacy here, showing the consequences of neglecting to be a more engaged parent. Her own father was very engaged in her upbringing.

I'm also reading an annotated edition this time 'round and it's not nearly as laborious as I thought it would be! 🤓 I agree with Janelle about the first chapter - the dialogue is excellent and for me, it not only sets the tone but tells you a lot about the characters.

Abigail wrote: "I think our view of Mr. Bennet tends to be highly colored by the film adaptations. There’s even one that shows a flashback of the moment when he humiliates Mary while Darcy’s voice is narrating the..."


I agree with the adaptations. I am more and more sure that sometimes when we see a movie or series and then discover the book on which it was based, we interpret thinking about the adaptation and we may distort the meaning of the author.
This reminds me of classics like Lolita or Wuthering Heights.
Still, I love seeing my favorite books made into movies and seeing how the cinematography, character acting, soundtrack, etc. are executed.

I think I'd read Pride and Prejudice twice before I saw any of the film adaptations. I just remember feeling really bad for Mary in that scene and couldn't recall other times when Darcy would have seen Mr. Bennett behaving in a less than ideal manner in public. Though yes, order of exposure to a story definitely impacts how one views a book or film.

Lu wrote: "I'm also reading an annotated edition this time 'round and it's not nearly as laborious as I thought it would be! 🤓 I agree with Janelle about the first chapter - the dialogue is excellent and for ..."

:)

I haven't read an annotated version before but sounds like I need to!

I read Pride and Prejudice in high school and again when I was a young adult. Rereading now as an older adult I have a different perspective.

Liz wrote: "I read Pride and Prejudice in high school and again when I was a young adult. Rereading now as an older adult I have a different perspective."

I'm very interested in hearing your perspective as we read through this book!

The contrast between the attempted banter of Miss Bingley and Darcy and the actual banter between Elizabeth and Darcy is really interesting in chapter 10. One of the annotations in my editions says, "The contrast between Miss Bingley's badinage with Darcy and Elizabeth's calls attention to Elizabeth's intelligence and wit and to the fact that what she says is not dictated by a desire to attract."

Janelle wrote: "The contrast between the attempted banter of Miss Bingley and Darcy and the actual banter between Elizabeth and Darcy is really interesting in chapter 10. One of the annotations in my editions says..."

Exactly why Mr. Darcy is just not that into Caroline but finds himself attracted to Lizzie. Caroline is TOO obvious and Lizzie wants nothing to do with him! He enjoys sparring with Lizzie more.

Exactly!

I found the discussion in Chapter 10 between Darcy and Bingley about Bingley's changeability being a character flaw and how easily Bingley could be influenced/persuaded by a friend to take a certain course of action to be excellent foreshadowing!

I just finished P & P a few days ago and have decided that I definitely don’t like Mr. Collins; but I was especially bothered by Wickham and Lydia’s unapologetic behavior. I’m also a little surprised that Mr. Bennet states “I admire all three of my sons-in-law highly… Wickham, perhaps, is my favourite” (vol. 3 chap. 17). How could, after all that happened, Wickham be his favorite?

Lillymaria wrote: "I just finished P & P a few days ago and have decided that I definitely don’t like Mr. Collins; but I was especially bothered by Wickham and Lydia’s unapologetic behavior. I’m also a little surpris..."

He is being sarcastic there....Wickham is definitely not his favourite!

The Mr. Collins proposal scene is sheer brilliance!!! I love it so much! He says so much and so little at the same time. The whole thing is about him and he never actually asks Elizabeth to marry him.

"And now nothing remains for me but to assure you in the most animated language of the violence of my affection."

Haha! Poor Elizabeth is still waiting for the assurance of his affections since he never actually says anything.

Janelle wrote: "The Mr. Collins proposal scene is sheer brilliance!!! I love it so much! He says so much and so little at the same time. The whole thing is about him and he never actually asks Elizabeth to marry h..."

Me too and I LOL at Mr. Bennet's reaction. He's a terrible husband and father but so funny. Don't take anything he says seriously.

The point of the Bennets, Mr. Collins and Mr. Darcy's arrogant first proposal is "do anything but marry without respect." The Bennet parents don't respect each other and they can barely be in the same room at the same time without her having nerves and him tossing off a sarcastic comment. He counsels Elizabeth to be a bit in awe of her husband, meaning she needs to respect him and I think in turn her husband will respect her. Mr. Collins is just not Lizzie's intellectual equal. She could never respect him enough to marry him. Charlotte manages to respect Mr. Collins and manage him at the same time. She allows Lady Katherine to have the upper hand and keeps harmony in the household. Lizzie could never do any of that.

How I enjoy this novel! even when I know perfectly well what will happen, I take enormous delight in Austen's style and certainly in her humor.
I also love that way of deceiving her characters by putting them to the test with dishonest characters like Wickham, because to a certain extent the author deceives us as readers too.
Wickham's presentation is a great example, he is only described as someone charming, but we are really influenced by Elizabeth's perspective, also as he appeals to her vanity preferring her and speaking ill of Darcy has conquered her.

Caroline wrote: "How I enjoy this novel! even when I know perfectly well what will happen, I take enormous delight in Auste's style and certainly in her humor.
I also love that way of deceiving her characters by pu..."

Yes! I'm reading an annotated edition and while at the Netherfield ball, Elizabeth thinks that Mr. Bingley has blind partiality where Darcy is concerned. The annotation says that the "irony is that her partiality for Wickham is more truly blind - for, unlike Bingley, she has little real acquaintance with the man she is favoring.

I've had so many light bulb moments reading this edition! 🤓

Austen also deceives readers by reporting a character’s thoughts almost directly (free indirect discourse), enticing us to go along with the character’s point of view even though the character later turns out to be mistaken.

Lu wrote: "Caroline wrote: "How I enjoy this novel! even when I know perfectly well what will happen, I take enormous delight in Auste's style and certainly in her humor.
I also love that way of deceiving her..."

That's great! I'm reading a different annotated version and am really enjoying what it adds to my understanding of the story.

Janelle wrote: "Lu wrote: "Caroline wrote: "How I enjoy this novel! even when I know perfectly well what will happen, I take enormous delight in Auste's style and certainly in her humor.
I also love that way of de..."

It really does add a lot to the reading experience, having the annotations! I've learned so many wonderful little nuggets! For example: when Mr. Collins approached Darcy at the Netherfield ball, the annotation says: "The person of higher social consequence or position, in this case Darcy, should have the freedom to decide whether two people should speak and become acquainted. This is a basic social rule of the time, which we will see applied elsewhere in the novel."

Probably common knowledge to someone with more experience in reading the Classics, but I had no idea! 😬

Abigail wrote: "Austen also deceives readers by reporting a character’s thoughts almost directly (free indirect discourse), enticing us to go along with the character’s point of view even though the character late..."

Free indirect discourse, the literary technique that Austen perfected, is really fascinating, it makes me think that not even an omniscient narrator is totally reliable, because when a new character is introduced we perceive it through Elizabeth, which in turn leads me to the conclusion that she is the only protagonist and not Darcy, since we see more of her interior and reflections throughout the novel and we don't really know Darcy's thoughts, except when he speaks. I say this because before I thought that Darcy was also the protagonist, I guess that under the influence of the movies

Elizabeth’s is definitely not a reliable point of view! At least in the first half of the book. And I think you’re right—we think we know what Darcy is thinking and feeling because of the film adaptations, but he’s quite opaque in the book. As I expect men were to women for the most part in those days, since their social interactions were so formally structured. I’m seeing the same thing in Belinda, which I’m reading simultaneously.

Lu wrote: "Janelle wrote: "Lu wrote: "Caroline wrote: "How I enjoy this novel! even when I know perfectly well what will happen, I take enormous delight in Auste's style and certainly in her humor.
I also lov..."

Yes! My annotations mentioned that too. Major faux pas on Mr. Collins part.

I had always wondered why Elizabeth said it was an "impertinent freedom" for Mr. Collins to walk up to Darcy. Mr. Darcy, from the annotations, had the freedom to decide whether two people should speak and become acquainted.

Elizabeth even tells Mr. Collins not to approach Darcy “assuring him that Mr. Darcy would consider his addressing him without introduction as an impertinent freedom….” And then watches in horrified fascination as Mr. Collins blunders over anyway and all her concerns are realized. 🤣

It made me think it’s all of these correct observations from Elizabeth that make it so easy to trust her initial thoughts on the Wickham/Darcy situation. She’s been proven right plenty of times by this point in the book, so we just assume she’s right about Wickham and Darcy too.

One tidbit I got from the book and not the movie was from Chapter 20 and Mr. Collin's flighty response to Elizabeth saying no to his marriage proposal. After her parents spoke to Elizabeth, Mr. Collins actually seems to apologize to Mrs. Bennett & said, "I meant well through the whole affair." He comes across as obnoxious and then backs down when he doesn't get his way.

Janelle wrote: "Lu wrote: "Janelle wrote: "Lu wrote: "Caroline wrote: "How I enjoy this novel! even when I know perfectly well what will happen, I take enormous delight in Auste's style and certainly in her humor...."

A major faux pas, indeed! 😉

Janelle wrote: "Lillymaria wrote: "I just finished P & P a few days ago and have decided that I definitely don’t like Mr. Collins; but I was especially bothered by Wickham and Lydia’s unapologetic behavior. I’m al..."

Aw yes I suppose I just didn’t give him the credit of being that sarcastic.

Chelsea wrote: "I found the discussion in Chapter 10 between Darcy and Bingley about Bingley's changeability being a character flaw and how easily Bingley could be influenced/persuaded by a friend to take a certai..."

I agree with you. With that discussion the reader realize that Bingley is easily persuaded. He is a kind of Anne Elliot. I like the way that Austen shows us the personality of the different charachters through dialogues!
The discussion about Darcy's flaws when he admits that he is resentfull is also interesting for the plot of the novel, because i think it incentivises Elizabeth's prejudices against Darcy.

I've read Pride and Prejudice several times during the last fourty years and watched various adaptations, and I remember for the most part having liked Mr. Bennet. I never realized how sardonic and uncompassionate he actually is. I've just finished chapter 24 where he congratulates Jane to be 'crossed in love' and wishes that Lizzy, too, will be jilted by a man: "...it is a comfort to think that, whatever of that kind may befal you, you have an affectionate mother who will always make the most of it." That's not humorous, that's mean! How could this have escaped my notice?

I think a lot depends on the actor. Actors who look fatherly and have a kindly aspect tend to be cast as Mr. Bennet; they never seem to sneer and always have some warmth behind their words.

I don’t read that “crossed in love” passage as mean. I think he’s trying to say that heartbreak isn’t the end of the world, that life goes on. Mrs. Bennet is only making the pain worse by endlessly dwelling on the event and bemoaning it; Mr. Bennet is trying to put it in perspective. “It is a comfort” is sarcasm directed at Mrs. Bennet’s behavior.