On the Southern Literary Trail discussion

Comments on this board are made with the assumption that readers have finished the book and may include spoilers.

I want to read all 3 of this month's selections, so I got a head start with this one. I thought it was wonderful and hope a lot of us join in.

Diane wrote: "I want to read all 3 of this month's selections, so I got a head start with this one. I thought it was wonderful and hope a lot of us join in."

I'm really glad you liked it, Diane.

How could I not Howard? It reminded me a bit of Stoner, a man of character who is true to his principles no matter how much it hurts him.

Diane wrote: "How could I not Howard? It reminded me a bit of Stoner, a man of character who is true to his principles no matter how much it hurts him."

I agree. I thought you would, but one never knows. And you could have liked it and given it 4 stars, but you gave it the big 5.

What did you think about the ending?

I thought it ended appropriately. The rains finally came, but too late for Charlie. I had thought he might leave the ranch to Manuel, since his son showed no interest, but Tom showed a little maturity by starting to pay his debts, so there was promise there. Having the banker agree to back Manuel's education was a better way.

Diane wrote: "I thought it ended appropriately. The rains finally came, but too late for Charlie. I had thought he might leave the ranch to Manuel, since his son showed no interest, but Tom showed a little matur..."

Yes, It is ironic that the rain that signaled the end of a seven year drought probably finished Charlie -- especially at his age and his health situation. I don't know that Tom could salvage the situation even if he wanted to -- but it is a possibility.

With the drought ended I think the banker will bankroll Manuel's dream of becoming a vet. That would make a good sequel, but it will never be written.

Sometimes the best books don't need sequels. I think this is one of them.

Diane wrote: "Sometimes the best books don't need sequels. I think this is one of them."

You are right. He did write several sequels, but none of them, much like McMurtry's, ever came up to the standards of the originals. But we can use our imaginations to decide for ourselves what happened to Charlie and the other folks.

Of course, had a sequel been written I would have already read it a long time ago. It is Elmer Kelton, after all.

Well, this is officially a wonderful book! I ached for Charlie. It is so sad to see someone try so hard and be defeated, but it is hard to see how even his determination could win with his health as it is. I loved Manuel and Kathy, and while I recognize the struggle that would also be, I hope they went for it. There are so many things to love about this book, particularly the expose on the government, which I imagine we could all relate to at some level; but the exploration of the complicated relationships between the Mexicans and the Anglo-Americans was so well done and so thoughtful, and again a problem this area still struggles with on a daily basis.

I hope a lot of our members choose to read this one Sara. It's way too good to languish in the forgotten books category.

I agree. I have learned not to judge these older "westerns" by their cover.

Sara wrote: "Well, this is officially a wonderful book! I ached for Charlie. It is so sad to see someone try so hard and be defeated, but it is hard to see how even his determination could win with his health a..."

Sara, I think you just wrote a summary of your review -- or it wrote itself..

Sara wrote: "Well, this is officially a wonderful book! I ached for Charlie. It is so sad to see someone try so hard and be defeated, but it is hard to see how even his determination could win with his health a..."

Sara, I don't know if this had anything to do with Kelton's views about Mexicans, but he saw combat in Europe near the end of the war. He eventually married an Austrian woman that he met there. She was a widow who had a small son, whom he adopted.

That could also be why he had Charlie married to a German woman. The only difference between the two nationalities is an arbitrary border. It is also due to the fact that many German immigrants did settle in that area of Texas. As I read the book I often wondered if he modeled Mary after his wife, Anna.

At any rate, his stance on Mexican-Anglo relations was certainly progressive for that time (book published in 1973) and place.

Thank you for the background, Howard. It would seem that a lot of Kelton went into the character of Charlie. This was indeed a progressive view for the time.

I found the relationship with Mary to be very interesting. The good times seemed to have eroded the relationship, but then when times are difficult they pull together. She is tough, out working with the men in the end. He obviously knew about strong women and German stock is noted for that.

I thought Mary was a pretty strong woman. She thought Charlie was too lenient with Tom, for one thing, and it's usually the other way around. She just went her own way because Charlie didn't listen to her, for one thing. Those turnip greens were a statement!

LOL. Yes, the turnip greens were definitely a statement.

I really enjoyed this. My only concern is that it isn't a southern story. The state of Texas is so large that it spans multiple regions including south Texas and west Texas. This book is definitely the latter. Elmer Kelton focuses on several key issues that are central to western American life: water (or the lack of it), the ranchers' attachment to The Land, relations between Anglos and their neighbors to the south, and their stubborn aversion of having anything to do with the government. This 'leave us alone to mind our own business' attitude is the type of conservatism that I grew up with and understand. If the Republican party was still like this, I could easily still have been one.

Tom wrote: "I really enjoyed this. My only concern is that it isn't a southern story. The state of Texas is so large that it spans multiple regions including south Texas and west Texas. This book is definitely..."

But Charlie was an exception. The other ranchers did sign up for government assistance and some of them even pressured Charlie to do likewise.

You make a good point, Tom, about Texas' location. It is so large that it is a southern -- and a western state -- and therefore is classified as a southwestern state. So I'm not sure where one would draw the line in determining if a Texas writer was southern or western.

"Giant" has been a nomination and it is set in west Texas and its author was born in Kalamazoo, Michigan and died in New York. At least Elmer Kelton was born in Texas and lived there for all of his life except for the years that he spent in the military during WWII.

My own state of Missouri has an even more complicated geography. The southern part of the state, which includes the upper Mississippi Delta and the Ozarks, is southern; the northeastern section of the state is eastern and midwestern; the western area above the Ozarks extending to the Iowa border is western.

Mark Twain's work has been nominated as a selection on the Southern Trail, but he was not a southerner. He was born and raised in Hannibal, which is located in the northeastern section of the state and definitely is not southern.

On the other hand, Paulette Jiles, author of "Enemy Women" and other novels, is a native of Salem, Missouri, which is located in the Ozarks and, in my opinion anyway, qualifies as a southern writer.

One thing that Texas and Missouri shared in common is that both were slave states. However, Texas seceded, while Missouri did not.

Howard wrote: "One thing that Texas and Missouri shared in common is that both were slave states. However, Texas seceded, while Missouri did not."

I don't believe that manmade borders adequately define the different societal norms that make up regional identities. Texas is both west and south and you really need to look at each book individually to get an understanding of the subject matter and the author's mindset. Missouri is similar although I think in some ways it is easier. Southern Missouri and the Ozarks are very much southern and Paulette Jiles books are good examples.

I think what is important in geographically categorizing a book is to look at the subject matter and compare it to what is important to the residents of that region. Southern books often address topics of race, poverty, family, social strata, and the Civil War. Western books, as I mentioned above, focus more on independence, hard work, an attachment to the land, and often weather. There is a book that has long been on my TBR list that addresses this idea, American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America by Colin Woodard

Tom wrote: "Howard wrote: "One thing that Texas and Missouri shared in common is that both were slave states. However, Texas seceded, while Missouri did not."

I don't believe that manmade borders adequately d..."

You make some good points and I don't mean to be argumentative. In fact, I'm not disagreeing. I was just saying that it is complicated. Lyndon Johnson was born, lived in, and is buried in west Texas, actually in the very part of the state in which Kelton's story is set, and was also a rancher, but politically he was considered to be a southerner.

George W. Bush grew up in west Texas and lives there as an adult, but unlike LBJ was never considered to be a southern politician.

Actually, Kelton dealt with all the issues (ethnicity rather than race) you mentioned, except the Civil War, but it definitely is a story set in the West.

Missouri is easier because, unlike Texas, there is a clearly discernible southern region, but is more complicated geographically because it is located in the four main regions of the country: south, north, east and west.

"American Nations" is also on my TBR list.

So are saying that "southern" is more of a mindset than location?

To a certain extent, I think that is true. To the author of the book that Tom linked above it is a difference in culture, but then different cultures do have different mindsets.

The author divides the country into eleven "nations" based on culture. West Texas is placed in the same region as New Mexico and Arizona, which he calls "El Norte."

Most of the rest of the south, including east Texas, is placed either into what he labels the "Deep South," or into what he has named "Greater Appalachia," which also includes the Ozarks.

Therefore, he has divided the south into two -- and if you include west Texas -- three distinct cultural regions characterized by three different mindsets. (There are also a couple of small regions in the mid-Atlantic region.)

I haven't read the book yet but it is near the top of my TBR list and I hope to get to it in the near future. Who knows, I may not even agree with him, but I believe it will be an interesting read.

This discussion reminds me of Southern Indiana. The area around Evansville has been referred to by its residents as Indy-Yucky. It does seem much more like Kentucky than the Midwest. “Southern Hoosiers have a bit of a southern twang; northerners don't. Southern Indiana definitely isn't the south, but close connections to Kentucky would have you thinking otherwise. You'll definitely notice a slower pace of dialogue and slight southern twang in the southern parts of the state.” From onlyinyourstate.com

Unlike Illinois, by the way. Southern Illinois does have some cultural/political differences from the northern part of the state, but it still seems like it is all Midwest.

Terry wrote: "This discussion reminds me of Southern Indiana. The area around Evansville has been referred to by its residents as Indy-Yucky. It does seem much more like Kentucky than the Midwest. “Southern Hoos..."

That's another good example, Terry. I'm sure this kind of thing happens in other places in the country where states from different sections share common borders.

In fact, Woodard places northern Indiana, northern Ohio, and also northern Illinois, in a diferent "nation" from the one in which he places the southern regions of those three states.

At least in his opinion, southern Illinois is a separate culture from that which exists in the northern part of the state. I have driven through the area many times, but I don't know enough about it to make a judgement, but you might disagree with him.

By the way, he places Missouri into three different "nations:" Deep South, Greater Appalachia, and Midlands.

I just finished the book and enjoyed reading about the indelible character Charlie Flagg to the very end. Charlie Flagg is a character of “the greatest generation,” the ones who fought in World War II, a man of character and self sufficiency, reminding me of fathers and uncles of that time. Even though the book turned out to be more Western than Southern (my apologies to the group), I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did.

It painted quite a picture of time and place. For me, it was one of those books that I wanted to devote my attention to, and savor slowly, so I held off reading the other books this month until this one was finished. I think there was a certain amount of nostalgia in it for me — sort of like watching an old John Wayne movie. I would probably enjoy reading more by Kelton.

For all my admiration of Charlie, though, it’s from a safe distance of time and space. I don’t think I personally would have fared well in ranch culture, or being married to him. In fact, I think that was integral to my hippie rebellion at the end of the sixties and my rejection of living the kind of lives women were relegated to as i was growing up. My early frustration with the women characters in the book was that I thought they were being dismissed as background, but by the end, I was happy enough with the characters of Mary and especially Kathy, who showed their own self sufficiency. But I still cannot see how I would fit into that culture. I am too much of a baby boomer, and have lived most of my life with my own career, as well as being a mother to a daughter with her own ambitions, and a grandmother to a young girl who shows the same tendencies. It’s hard to keep judgements by contemporary standards out of novels of the relatively recent past.

Like Sara, I thought that the discussion of relations between Anglos and Mexicans was honest. However, towards the end of the book, Teofilo remarks that things were better for Mexicans in California. Maybe that was just wishful thinking, like “the grass is always greener” somewhere else. Being a native Californian who grew up in the fifties and sixties, I don’t believe that was really true at the time.

Terry wrote: "I just finished the book and enjoyed reading about the indelible character Charlie Flagg to the very end. Charlie Flagg is a character of “the greatest generation,” the ones who fought in World War..."

You make some very good points, Terry. You mentioned the times; it was the 50s -- and not the 60s -- which is an important distinction. More than making personal judgments, with one exception, I think Kelton was using his reporting skills to describe what was occurring in that place at that time.

I think the exception is Anglo-Mexican relations. Those views, I think, were Kelton's personal reflections

I can see why a woman of today would not want to be married to Charlie, but his wife Mary did not let him run roughshod over her. Being his son would be easier with Tom being exhibit one. That's because Charlie lived in a time and place where it was a man's world. If Charlie had had a daughter it would have been a somewhat different relationship with her, a more protective one, as demonstrated by his paternalistic attitude toward Anita and Kathy.

And Terry, don't apologize to me for your nomination of this book. I'm tremendously pleased that it was able to escape detection and make its way from a western trail onto a southern trail.

This could lead a few people to give Kelton a further look.

I'm with Howard on being pleased with your nomination of this one Terry. The truth is, after the 12 or so years of the Trail's existence, we are needing to go a little bit farther west and north to get some great reads, not that there are still not a lot to get to in the deeper south. I wouldn't have made a good ranch wife either, but I do think in that time and place the roles of men and women were pretty well entrenched, with importance on both sides. Kathy was able to break through those expectations, not just with her abilities on the ranch and her way of dressing, but by her acceptance and love in her relationship with Manuel. I thought it was an excellent book.

I finished my reading yesterday and have been trying to corral my thoughts. They've been running wild, so it may take a while. Definitely a 5 star book for me.

My great-grandfather was a farmer. He made his living off the land and was proudly touted (by my grandfather) as 'never working on a public job.' It was a highly valued independence but one that was easily lost as sawmill jobs and later manufacturing moved in and raised expectations as well as the standard of living. Still, I recognize and bear in my memory and body, the affection and devotion to the land that came from this old man I never really knew. It came to me through stories about him and the respect for him in those who told the stories. For me, he is a version of Charlie Flagg.

Charlie's domestic life and bowl of turnip greens left something to be desired. Although he earned my respect, like Terry, I don't think I'd want to live with this man. Those turnip greens speak to the frustrations that Mary must have felt from not having a voice in the decisions he makes. At the same time, I can see how living like this would have made both of them lonely. Thus, the attraction for Charlie, of the Flores family home, the lights of house twinkling at night, the conversation to be had around their family table, the merriment of children running, playing, and working. What a contrast!

Kelton drew sharp contrasts between Manuel, Lupe Flores's oldest son (15 at the beginning of the story) and Charlie's son, Tom, who has gone off to reap fame and glory on the rodeo circuit. In the end, it is Manuel who is working alongside Charlie to try to save the ranch. Tom is sending money back home, but Manuel chooses to work for Charlie without pay. Manuel has worked through his perception of Charlie's flaws and both men have bonded over shared experiences. As a reader, I felt like Manuel was a true son and this feeling was reinforced when Charlie approached the banker regarding putting up the finances for Manuel to attend vet school.

The most emotional part of the book for me was Paige's funeral. Grief for Paige was expressed by his Mexican workers. It's easy to see how they were the only family besides his daughter, Kathy, that he had. Paige had made lots of enemies amassing a fortune of indebtedness but still, I was struck by the loyalty of his workers, the grief of the Mexican woman to whom had fallen the task of raising Kathy. All of this made me think of my own Mexican daughter-in-law and her family. Her family, including a married brother and his wife, and a younger brother moved out here to NC from San Diego, California, to be close to their daughter and my son. A year and a half ago, her father died, and I sat grieving his loss as I read about Paige's funeral and contemplated the wonderful things that this Mexican family has brought to my own life.

In my mind, Manuel and Kathy are together in whatever way they can manage.

You make a great point about the contrast between the Flores family and Charlie's home life. I only had one brother, but thought that a big family would be fun when I was growing up. Then I only had one child myself. But I do enjoy reading about them.

Libby wrote: "I finished my reading yesterday and have been trying to corral my thoughts. They've been running wild, so it may take a while. Definitely a 5 star book for me.

My great-grandfather was a farmer. ..."

LIbby,

Your comments are outstanding in every way. It is obvious that the book touched you personally, which is always a good thing.

When I earlier read your comments about your daughter-in-law, and again here, I was reminded of the Bush family.

One reason the Bush family was/is liberal on immigration while being conservative on nearly all other issues, is that Jeb, ex-governor of Florida and former presidential candidate, is married to Columba Garnica Gallo, who was born in Mexico. Their son has held statewide political office in Texas, though I think he lost his attempt to be elected to another office (maybe attorney general) in the last election

There's an old saying that familiarity breeds contempt. Well, not always; most of the time, as in your case, it breeds love and respect and toleration.

While I have not been able to be here much this week, I have just read through all the comments and enjoyed so much every one!

Libby, I also feel your heart in your post and find it wonderful that you are able to appreciate and share what your daughter-in-law has brought to your life.

I am another who is pleased that this "western" book got through the process, Terry. I think it is one of the best selections we have had lately and it has sparked some marvelous conversation. I think this is what we are looking for, be it deeply southern or just on the edge.

I will say that Charlie's attitudes, independence, and love for the land were very much in line with those I found growing up in my father and my uncles. My grandfather was a share-cropper, scratching to make ends meet while giving the best of his crop to the landlord. Mama said they would sort the apples and all the unbruised ones would go in the landlord's barrel and that her brothers would sometimes complain but Grandpa would say anything else would be cheating, and he didn't cheat. I think he and Charlie Flagg would have understood one another.

Diane, I had only one sister growing up. I had two sons, but they were five years apart, and very different in temperament. I love reading about big families and their internal dynamics. If you fall out with one sibling, there's almost always another one who can see things from your viewpoint.

Thank you, Howard. You're right about the book touching me personally. It brought to my mind all that my connection to my daughter-in-law's family has given me. Their ability to love and be close, their affection and respect for elders are things I didn't think so much about until I met them. My family has those things, but they are measured, sometimes stingily. From the start, her parents embraced me with a hug, kissing me on the cheek.

I didn't know about the Bush connection to Mexico and find it very interesting.

Yes, I think your grandfather and Charlie Flagg would have understood each other, too, Sara. Your grandfather was governed by his principles, and he passed that on to the brothers and all that heard the story. It's impossible to grow up with these stories and not be touched by them.

Libby,

What a special and personal connection you have in so many ways to this novel. I love to hear about other's experiences in this way because it brings the fiction to a new place seeped in reality through your own story. So thank you for sharing it with us.

I also was struck emotionally with Manuel's devotion to Charlie at the end. I literally cried when he showed up after Charlie's heart attack. And again at the end when Manuel defended Charlie against Chuy Garcia. He was able to work through his own feelings about Charlie's paternalism by realizing that Charlie meant well (in his way) and that their differences actually were what drew them to one another. Charlie's progression in his thinking toward Mexicans was touching with how he helped Jose early on and especially the way he saw Manuel as another son and the gesture he made for his veterinary education to be paid for.

I loved the ending - hardship still in the midst of the rain they have been waiting so long for. It is proof that life was still going to be tough even after the rain.

Lori, the older I get, the more it seems I find emotional connections in the stories I read. Certain themes remind me of friends, family, past co-workers, my own past experiences. There's a richness to it, like stirring a pot of memories and most of the time, reaping something good from it.

I found an interesting link that talks about how the 1950s Texas drought changed agriculture there forever and began the modern era of water planning. It includes a quote from Elmer Kelton's brother, Eugene, who was 80 in 2012, at the time this program would have aired on NPR.

https://www.npr.org/2012/07/07/155995...

Libby wrote: "Lori, the older I get, the more it seems I find emotional connections in the stories I read. Certain themes remind me of friends, family, past co-workers, my own past experiences. There's a richnes..."

Thanks a bunch, Libby. That really re-enforces what Kelton wrote. He knew exactly what people -- and animals -- confronted during the drought because he was there, and the rain at the end that wiped out Charlie was just the beginning of another natural disaster that would take down even more ranchers.

Thanks for the link, Libby. Very interesting.

You're welcome.

Great article, Libby. I know exactly what you mean about feeling more emotional attachment to what you are reading. I have that same reaction.

I just finished and so pleased I decided to fit this one in. Also pleased that we ventured beyond what you all define as strictly southern borders.

My dad came from El Paso Texas but raised me in southern California and this book more than any other I have read, made me see how the principles and attitudes of men like Charlie were ingrained in him. It also enlightened me on what Tom noted about that "leave us alone to mind our own business attitude" giving me a better understanding of what Republican conservatism was about at one time. Dad's people originally settled in North Carolina & Virginia and I assume his family association with mining, strikes, and unions is what made him choose the Democratic party though to me he couldn't have been more southernly conservative.
He was very bigoted against Mexicans but worked with them most of his adult life and could be heard saying what hard workers they were. How conflicted he must have been at times.
The Mexican-American relations portrayed here was much appreciated by me and handled so well, so balanced. It was my favorite part of this story.

I thought the ending was perfect. I was thinking to myself
The rain giveth and the rain taketh away.

Glad you enjoyed it, Cathrine. I love when a book can connect me to my past or to someone I know (or have known) and serve to humanize a point of view that might not be my own.

Love your closing sentence...yes, it does.

Cathrine ☯️ wrote: "I just finished and so pleased I decided to fit this one in. Also pleased that we ventured beyond what you all define as strictly southern borders.

My dad came from El Paso Texas but raised me in ..."

Great observations and nice personal touch, Cathrine.

You know, there was a time when the South was solidly Democratic even though almost all of those Democrats were conservatives. They often voted with northern conservative Republicans to defeat the policies of the more liberal northern Democrats.

So I'm not surprised your father was a conservative southern Democrat.

In today's overly partisan and dysfunctional Congress there is practically no crossing over party lines to vote with the other side. See Lyn Cheney, Exhibit One, to see what happens to you if you dare to.

Howard this also reached into my Northern maternal side. I was in Minnesota in the 80s when family farms were going under at an alarming rate and my relatives were talking about government interference and how they were about to lose land that had been in their lines for over a 100 years. I didn't understand the whys of what they were talking about, but it was so sad to see those obviously abandoned homesteads as we drove the country roads. They were angry like Charlie. Farming was all they wanted to do.

I enjoyed your comments, Cathrine. My Dad was a bit like yours in his bias and prejudices. When I informed him that his grandson was dating a Mexican girl, he let loose a few exclamatory sentences. However, when he met his future granddaughter-in-law, he was kind and eventually won over by her warmth. For her part, I never sensed any judgment at all, although she confided that she had a hard time understanding my Dad. He spoke with a thick southern accent.

About the rain and the lack thereof. My sister-in-law lives in Dallas, Tx. When she talked to my husband last week, she said they had not had rain for 40 days when the sky suddenly opened up and they were overcome with the downpour.

This is from an article at msn.com dated August 23, 2022
"Rainfall in North Texas from Sunday to Monday toppled a record set more than 100 years ago and came close to the record for the rainiest 24 hours ever recorded in DFW."

I am saddened when I think about the loss of family farms as well and wonder if the resilience of our food system wouldn't have been better served by them than the corporate farming system that we have today.

Libby, we could sure use some of that rain. September 1 we are back to triple digits and excessive heat warnings, as high as 110º.
I was listening to a podcast the other day that claimed 1/3 of all fresh drinkable water use in the USA goes to water lawns. I think that is insane and should be illegal. Farmers growing our food should be first in line. As the Colorado river dries up it's time for some government regulation. I wonder what Charlie would say?

The sun has been just relentless this year.

Changing from lawns to native plants would provide a lot of environmental benefits, including carbon sequestration, oxygen production, pollinator habitat, wildlife forage, and even soil conditions that encourage water absorption. Changing from lawn to gravel would help with water waste from sprinklers but provides few other benefits. And if underlaid with black poly, gravel surfaces increase runoff almost as efficiently as pavement. Some of our big issues are stormwater management and groundwater recharge.

I don't know if Charlie would agree or not, but I do. Even Charlie, opposed as he was to government interference might be appalled to learn that 1/3 of fresh drinkable water in US goes to water lawns. I bet Charlie didn't have a lawn, even on the good rain years, at least not one he would have watered after the cattle, sheep, horses, and goats ran over it.

I'm sorry to hear that you're having heat in the triple digits, Cathrine. When we had a few days around 100 degrees, I swore I could feel the UV rays dancing on my skin whenever I was brave enough to poke my nose outside. That kind of heat sucks the breath out of a body.

Terry wrote: "The sun has been just relentless this year.

Changing from lawns to native plants would provide a lot of environmental benefits, including carbon sequestration, oxygen production, pollinator habita..."

I never, ever water or fertilize my lawn. I do occasionally water and use only organic fertilizers in my garden. I have started planting zinnias and other flowers in the garden to attract pollinators that are harder and harder to attract as the years go by, because they are being killed off by people indiscriminately spraying insecticides. My lawn helps to provide some pollinators, because it has a lot of white clover which does attract some honeybees and bumble bees. Unfortunately, this year, because of the heat and arid conditions it went dormant about a month earlier than usual.

But if next year is like the extremely dry, hot summer ( 100 degree days with heat indexes near 110), I may just throw in the towel.