Forgotten Vintage Children's Lit We Want Republished! discussion

There was a rave review on one of his books here on Goodreads. The reviewer had ordered a vintage book, and the bookseller had sent on a William Mayne title as a free bonus. "It was great! Even better than the book I ordered! How did I not know of this guy?!"

The reviewer, like myself, was not British. So we hadn't heard of William Mayne and his criminal sexual predation of his devoted young fans, subsequent rape convictions and incarceration. We were blissfully ignorant of the side-show that sidelined his books and relegated them to 'free gift with purchase' status.

To be honest, once I heard about the sexual assaults and grooming, it did cause pause for thought. Suddenly every title, every description takes on a new and creepy light. I found myself wondering if the girls he attacked were redheads - he seemed to have written several carrot-topped female protagonists in his time. I stopped wanting to add them to lists like "Red Headed Heroines", since I always thought such a list might be used to bolster the self-esteem of red headed young readers. The paedophilic influence that may (or may not?) lurk in his stories was off-putting. Already I could feel myself slightly repulsed by this author's work.

And, of course, then there's the monetary issue - would this jerk benefit financially from my purchases of his books?! Even obliquely, somehow, if I bought them secondhand?

Well, as of 2010 and due to 'natural causes', the latter is no longer an issue. Link to his obituary is here: https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...

I have yet to read any of his books, but I do have a few on my To Read shelf. Part of me wants to pick up his books secondhand, probably at attractively low prices if they're just giving them away, and preserve them for posterity.

I personally do not believe in censorship - I don't think it serves any useful purpose. Slap a warning label on it, make it uncool, whatever. But to erase things, to 'cancel' them entirely, makes me worry that we'll lack the source material from which to learn from (and prevent future mistakes). Although in the case of William Mayne, I'm not sure that holds. Regardless, it's important to remember that a children's author was able to use his influence to gain access to innocent victims. That's something we should retain in our collective societal consciousness, so that we can be sure to avoid such possible instances in the future.

I am curious to know what those who have read Mayne's books as youngsters think. Were they great before these awful criminal actions came to light? Did you still want to read those stories afterwards, or was it too hard to separate the story from the author? Do you think they may still be of value in spite of Mayne's deserved infamy? Or do we let them fade into obscurity forever, without regret?

(Do stories exist independently of the authors who wrote them? They become part of ourselves when we read them - do we have an obligation to keep them alive?)

A link to an article in The Guardian: "The author abused children: should we read his books?" https://www.theguardian.com/books/200...

I see I neglected to mention which William Mayne titles had interested me, prior to me learning about his crimes. There were more than just a few:

The Glass Ball
Sand
Underground Alley
A Parcel of Trees
The Battlefield
A Swarm in May
A Year and a Day
Choristers' Cake
Earthfasts
The Twelve Dancers
Rooftops

They all sounded really good. And now I honestly can't tell if they still do or not. I'm left feeling rather confused.

Mayne was one of the most important 20th century writers for children. At least some of his books should be in print. Would any publisher take an interest? I doubt it.

That's what I wondered. :) Wouldn't touch him with a barge pole, I'd imagine!

I never read his books as a child, he’s one of the authors I got interested in as an adult. It was after seeing the film of A Swarm In May that I read his cathedral school stories, I enjoyed them, particularly Cathedral Wednesday. I read most of his others, I enjoyed some more than others. Earthfasts, which is a time slip fantasy, is one I particularly like, Royal Harry is another good one, and The Twelve Dancers.
I was quite shocked when I heard about the child molesting. It apparently went on during the mid 60s, when I was the same age as the girls he was molesting. Strange to think I could have been one of them if I’d been a fan then. However, it hasn’t stopped me enjoying his books, which are very good. I think a person’s work is a separate thing, there must be lots of authors whose personal lives don’t bear much scrutiny.

Thanks, Louise. :) I was thinking the same thing - there are probably many others who just never have their evil deeds brought to light anyway!

As well as some who do and their books are in print.

I finished A Parcel of Trees. Didn't do it for me. But, at the back, was this:

OTHER BOOKS BY WILLIAM MAYNE
A Grass Rope won Carnegie Medal)
Plot Night
13 o'clock
A Swarm in May
Choristers' Cake
Follow the Footprints
The World Upside Down
The Member for the Marsh
The Blue Boat
Underground Alley
The Thumbstick
The Rolling Season
Cathedral Wednesday
Summer Visitors
The Fishing Party
The Glass Ball
The Changeling

I can't find much about Thirteen O'Clock (WorldCat has it listed this way) - anyone know anything?

(I'm not a huge William Mayne fan, anyway, so please don't go to any trouble on my account - it's simply curiosity). :)

I couldn't find out much and no descriptions of the story. Anyway Thirteen o'Clock appears as a short story in Another 6 edited by Richard Armstrong and published by Basil Blackwell in 1959 – which may be affordable. It was also published separately by Blackwell in the same year, 32 pp., and illustrated by D J Watkins-Pitchford (B. B.) An auction house called T W Gaze sold a copy of a reprint edition together with another of Mayne's early books, The Long Night, for 600 GBP in 2021. www.fantasticfiction.com lists it as a picture book but unfortunately does not have an image of the cover. It's not much but it's a start.

No, that's perfect, Len! Thank you! A short story would make sense - seemed odd that just one book was missing from such a well-known author. :)

That's enough to satisfy my curiosity anyway. :) Thanks again!

I really like the cathedral books mentioned above, but I feel ill reading his books with girl main characters, because apparently he used "be a character in one of my books" as bait, making the reader slightly more complicit in the author's awfulness than is the case when the author is simply a bad person.

Yep, I have the same problem. Will stick with male protagonists! (I did wonder about how he was getting them to his place. Urgh. Let us all learn from this and let no one fall for that trick again!). :(

As a child, I loved the cathedral stories (Swarm in May, Chorister's Cake, Cathedral Wednesday, Words & Music) and Underground Alley and took them out of the library repeatedly. As an adult I went on reading and collecting - he was a prolific author as well as a gifted one. Then, like the rest of you, I was pulled up short by his arrest and convictions for child abuse and was forced to give the matter some serious thought. I concluded that he was still a great writer, and that I would have to hate the sin but not the sinner's writing. I couldn't help admiring his writing, while being utterly appalled by the misuse of a gift like this.

So, what are his best works in your opinion, Noreen? :) I have the Cathedral stories on my to-read list - they sound special.

I think they probably are his best, though Earthfasts is rather special too (less fond of the sequels).

Earthfasts is very good, some excellent characters and a gripping plot. There was a very good TV adaptation.

Noreen wrote: "I think they probably are his best, though Earthfasts is rather special too (less fond of the sequels)."

That's great to know, Noreen. Thanks! Was waffling on the sequels - will put on back burner for now (too many other books to read!).

Louise - I will check it out! :) I'd actually like to see what they made of it.

I've reviewed three of his books on my blog (https://calmgrove.wordpress.com/tag/w...) as well as here on Goodreads: The Patchwork Cat, The Worm in the Well, and The Twelve Dancers, mostly with that big caveat about his conviction, and have a couple more to read or reread (including Earthfasts). I'm no apologist for what he's done – as both a parent and a retired educator I can't condone his predilections – but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the art and imagination his published work shows and give credit where it's due

Thanks, Chris - I'm not familiar with those three, and I look forward to reading your reviews on them!

One good thing about the Cathedral series is that it being set in a boys' choir school, there are no girls whatsoever. I quite enjoyed it, and may reread it, but anything else is a nope for me.

It's another one of those pesky sets of titles that don't seem to be available online to read. I just forked out some money for It, because it intersected too much with my interests to be ignored. :) I also have A Year and a Day waiting. We'll see how those do, but I do still want to give The Cathedral series a go (all the better that there's no girls in it! Thanks, Emily!). ;)

Capn wrote: "It's another one of those pesky sets of titles that don't seem to be available online to read. I just forked out some money for It, because it intersected too much with my interests ..."

A Swarm in May is on Open Library. :)

Thanks, Sem! :) I think I saw two other listings that 'were not in library'. Choristers' Cake didn't seem to be there. Ah well, will cross that bridge when I eventually come to it! (My physical book backlog is guilt-inducing at the moment! Overflowing shelves!!)

Chris wrote: "I've reviewed three of his books on my blog (https://calmgrove.wordpress.com/tag/w...) as well as here on Goodreads: The Patchwork Cat, The Worm in the Well, and The Twelve Dancers, mostl..."

Great reviews, The Twelve dancers is a particularly good one I think, and the Patchwork Cat is delightful. Earthfasts is another favourite of mine.

Capn wrote: "Thanks, Sem! :) I think I saw two other listings that 'were not in library'. Choristers' Cake didn't seem to be there. Ah well, will cross that bridge when I eventually come to it! (..."
OL has two profile pages for Mayne. 🙄 The books are easy to come by at reasonable cost if and when you reach that bridge.

I think even those of us in Canada mostly do not know that William Mayne was a pedophile and one who preyed on girls as young as eight. In the Children's Literature Group we have been doing the Carnegie Medal winners since last September, and now that I finally managed to get a copy of Mayne's A Grass Rope (the 1957 winner), I am definitely wondering how I will be able to read and review this novel without automatically finding the story problematic and with a subtext of suspicion (and maybe I should also not try).

And A Grass Rope seems to have two main characters who are girls and sisters (just started, so not sure if they are red headed).

Manybooks wrote: "I think even those of us in Canada mostly do not know that William Mayne was a pedophile and one who preyed on girls as young as eight. In the Children's Literature Group we have been doing the Car..."

Quite a few of his books have girls as main characters. The Twelve Dancers, Underground Alley, A Parcel of Trees, Royal Harry, and IT are others that spring to mind. But I personally find I can still enjoy reading his books, I find I can separate the books from his personal life.

Louise wrote: "Manybooks wrote: "I think even those of us in Canada mostly do not know that William Mayne was a pedophile and one who preyed on girls as young as eight. In the Children's Literature Group we have ..."

I started reading A Grass Rope, and I can definitely appreciate that William Mayne was a talented writer and if A Grass Rope is any indication also generally had a wonderful and authentic feeling sense of place (with A Grass Rope being Yorkshire of course). But after reading that he actually enticed and baited the girls he sexually abused by promising to make them main characters in his novels, ANY novel of Mayne's that features girls as main protagonists I simply would not be able to separate from his personal life and his pedophilia, as for one, when I am reading I cannot help but wonder whether the characters depicted might have been modelled after some of William Mayne's victims and that for two, Mayne would also very easily have succeeded in enticing me personally to visit him (and then to be victimised) by him with a promise of being put into one of his books, for as a book loving and constantly reading child, being told that I might appear as a main mover and shaker in a novel and by a very popular and beloved author, this would totally and absolutely have majorly appealed to me and made me feel special and positive.

It sounds as if (see earlier in the discussion), that might be exactly the sort of thing he did do.

I find I am extra critical of his work. :) When I review one of his stories, where I'd feel I ought to be more lax or forgiving and credit the author with doing their best, I can't find myself to give him any leeway. ;) So there's a terrible bias there.

It's good to remember who he was, how he used his celebrity to gain access to naive and star-struck kids, and how well his awful trap worked.

Because it's no good pretending people like this don't exist. And personally, 'hero-worship' in my mind is just a recipe for disaster anyway - good to teach children that wolves dress as sheep, and that no person is totally good/perfect/safe. A healthy dose of skepticism is important! There will be other authors that turn out to be total dickheads (for various reasons) I'm sure. I like this list for that:

Great Authors Who Were/Are Terrible People
https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/1...

For me, it's simply a matter of them benefitting from my reading the book (do they receive royalties from it? No? Do I still want to read it, in spite of their a-hole status? Yes? Then no problem). ;)

Just don't expect an unbiased review - I can't shake off my subconscious! ;)

Capn wrote: "It sounds as if (see earlier in the discussion), that might be exactly the sort of thing he did do.

I find I am extra critical of his work. :) When I review one of his stories, where I'd feel I ou..."

Exactly! When I was reading A Grass Rope I kept wondering whether the two girls who are the main protagonists were modelled on the girls whom William Mayne enticed into his home and it kind of ruined the story for me.

Capn wrote: "It sounds as if (see earlier in the discussion), that might be exactly the sort of thing he did do.

I find I am extra critical of his work. :) When I review one of his stories, where I'd feel I ou..."

A very peculiar list. I know people have had their knives into Enid Blyton for decades, but what have they got on George Orwell?

Louise wrote: "Capn wrote: "It sounds as if (see earlier in the discussion), that might be exactly the sort of thing he did do.

I find I am extra critical of his work. :) When I review one of his stories, where ..."

I wondered the same! XD (I also don't know why Enid Blyton is on there....)

EDIT 31.03.23: Due to negative feedback, have removed the "(the predatory paedophile...)" subtitle from this thread's topic.
Hope that helps.

Capn wrote: "It sounds as if (see earlier in the discussion), that might be exactly the sort of thing he did do.

I find I am extra critical of his work. :) When I review one of his stories, where I'd feel I ou..."
That's a peculiar list. Somehow I don't think Orwell and Hitler should be rubbing shoulders.

I thought maybe I ought to make an 'official statement' here (and maybe this belongs in the 'General' folder - which I apparently have little power over renaming or removing or moving, even as the creator and sole moderator... go figure).

I'm no author, as you can plainly see for yourself, so I'm not especially adept at communication. So bear with me, please.

I created this group because I have a passion for the preservation of all literature.

I do not believe in revisionism.

I do not believe in censorship.

I do not engage in the current polarizing political climate. (It's probably partly why I like older books, too).

I have more personal reasons than most to be OFFENDED by William Mayne and sexual predators who target female children, and know first hand the life-long consequences thrust upon such a victim.

I'm able to put that part of me aside, however, and objectively discuss the published works of a total a$$wipe. I don't think his works should be erased, myself, and my feelings on reading books written by this author have already been outlined above.

I guess what I'm trying to defend is my standpoint that:

1. A discussion about William Mayne's works is relevant in this group entitled "Forgotten Vintage Children's Lit We Want Republished!", because in this case, Mayne is being actively forgotten, and his works largely (functionally) erased (for good or ill - weigh in, if you'd like! Will a publisher even consider rereleasing his stuff today?! Doubtful!). The circumstances here are, mercifully, atypical, and therefore notable and worthy of discussion, to my mind.

2. I will not be deleting or revising conversations about contentious or controversial or even criminal authors. This is a group to bring to the fore the forgotten works of the authors that are of interest to the poster (and may be of interest to others, may be not).

3. I will solemnly do my best to moderate to the best of my abilities, in good faith, and for the greater good, taking into account the interests of all stakeholders (present and future).

The bottom-line here is: USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

I sincerely hope you won't be upset by anything here, but I cannot (and will not) guarantee anything. It's real life - it's not perfect, and certainly not tailor-made to suit. :(

I hope that helps make it clear. I am sorry that this discussion has been upsetting to some.

Capn wrote: "I thought maybe I ought to make an 'official statement' here (and maybe this belongs in the 'General' folder - which I apparently have little power over renaming or removing or moving, even as the ..."

I agree. Perhaps in the General Folder as well (because this will happen again). It's reasonable to discuss whether his books should be reprinted, or read at all for that matter, but not reasonable not to discuss him.

Louise wrote: "Capn wrote: "It sounds as if (see earlier in the discussion), that might be exactly the sort of thing he did do.

I find I am extra critical of his work. :) When I review one of his stories, where ..."
Orwell - that would be the unsubstantiated attempted rape allegation in the postscript to the book 'Eric and Us' by Jacintha Buddicom.

I can definitely understand the negativity regarding Enid Blyton's Noddy books, but a lot of the criticism comes because Enid Blyton wrote very simple and very popular stories, which I find kind of problematic, as generally, young readers love Enid Blyton's work for a while and then automatically move on to more challenging fare (and that those who do not, often have reading issues).

And yes, I loved Enid Blyton's school stories as a tween and young teen and still enjoy them today.

Manybooks wrote: "I can definitely understand the negativity regarding Enid Blyton's Noddy books, but a lot of the criticism comes because Enid Blyton wrote very simple and very popular stories, which I find kind of..."

Oh right!!! Noddy! I had forgotten the (view spoiler)[golly-wogs (hide spoiler)]. :S

As a child growing up in Canada, I had no idea they were a racist caricature (I thought they were just a more genial variety of goblin, I think! I didn't know what Noddy was meant to be, and I knew Big Ears was a Brownie (mythological), so I naturally assumed they were all non-human...). Even now, I had to actively think about what the slur was (I think I understand, but the bad word (view spoiler)[wog (hide spoiler)] I had never heard outside of Fawlty Towers (the un-PC, senile old Major says it, once), and I still don't know (and don't much care to know) which group or subset of people it was referring to anyway).

I say that only because I think it's an important point: in order to be offended by something, you first need to be aware of the context. Because otherwise, WHOOSH! XD

Something to consider. (Reminds me of the Babel fish in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - everyone hoped that with flawless, universal translation, they'd get lasting PEACE between all... and instead, once they totally understood each other, they got more and bloodier wars than ever before...!). XD Bless the Late, Great Douglas Adams. He understood humanity. :)

Sem wrote: "Louise wrote: "Capn wrote: "It sounds as if (see earlier in the discussion), that might be exactly the sort of thing he did do.

I find I am extra critical of his work. :) When I review one of his ..."

Yep, that'll do it. Thanks, Sem! :)

Sem wrote: "Capn wrote: "I thought maybe I ought to make an 'official statement' here (and maybe this belongs in the 'General' folder - which I apparently have little power over renaming or removing or moving,..."

Thanks, Sem. I'll have to make a general waiver or something, I guess. Didn't think I needed it.. shows what little I know! :D

Capn wrote: "Manybooks wrote: "I can definitely understand the negativity regarding Enid Blyton's Noddy books, but a lot of the criticism comes because Enid Blyton wrote very simple and very popular stories, wh..."

Where in Canada did you live? I was born in Germany but we moved to Calgary, AB when I was ten years old. And Gosh, did I ever hate it at first, because if I was not being called a Nazi (even by some of my teachers) I was being told I was getting bullied because I supposedly was "too lazy to get rid of my accent"

Manybooks wrote: "Capn wrote: "Manybooks wrote: "I can definitely understand the negativity regarding Enid Blyton's Noddy books, but a lot of the criticism comes because Enid Blyton wrote very simple and very popula..."

(I'll PM you! :D Too many offensive things to say about Calgary to post publically, ha ha ha! JK. But I am so sorry that this happened!!!)

Capn wrote: "Sem wrote: "Louise wrote: "Capn wrote: "It sounds as if (see earlier in the discussion), that might be exactly the sort of thing he did do.

I find I am extra critical of his work. :) When I review..."

Not sure why something that we don't and can't know at this point places him alongside Hitler, Lovecraft, Bradley, and Perry. Perhaps I should start having fun with that list. >:)

Oh no... wait, what did Lovecraft do? (Apart from overuse the word 'eldritch')?! (EDIT: checked Wikipedia, I see.)

And Hitler is no author. That's like giving every celebrity credit for writing. :p

Yeah, I didn't think through that list recommendation. I just like dumping books into it - didn't scrutinize what was there already... too late to retract that?! :)

Anyway, my thought was WARNING LABEL. If you come across a William Mayne book and think, "Oh, this looks interesting!", and you have never heard of the guy before, and you see he's on that list, maybe you'd find out why and then be informed enough to make a decision to suit your own preferences. ;)

Capn wrote: "Oh no... wait, what did Lovecraft do? (Apart from overuse the word 'eldritch')?! (EDIT: checked Wikipedia, I see.)"

There was a huge fuss about Lovecraft several years ago when an author I was friended to here at the time went after the most well-known Lovecraft scholar - maybe the only Lovecraft scholar XD - on the subject of Lovecraft's racism and views on Hitler. Rather amusing. I mean - Lovecraft was Lovecraft. What would one expect?

Capn wrote: "And Hitler is no author. That's like giving every celebrity credit for writing. :p

Yeah, I didn't think through that list recommendation. I just like dumping books into it - didn't scrutinize wha..."

No problem with recommending it. I just have the urge to add authors who might not be thought of as 'terrible'. That list could be far more diverse than it is.

Capn wrote: "And Hitler is no author. That's like giving every celebrity credit for writing. :p

Yeah, I didn't think through that list recommendation. I just like dumping books into it - didn't scrutinize wha..."

But my burning question is - why would one want or need to know anything about an author before reading their books? The internet has created this situation. We used to pluck books from the shelves and read them. Didn't know anything about the authors, didn't care to know, and there was no way one could know.

Sem wrote: "But my burning question is - why would one want or need to know anything about an author before reading their books? The internet has created this situation. We used to pluck books from the shelves and read them. Didn't know anything about the authors, didn't care to know, and there was no way one could know"

(STANDING OVATION!)
Yes!!! Exactly!

THIS IS WHY William Mayne is such an important (and interesting) topic.

My fav anecdote is still the American reviewer who received a complimentary copy of a William Mayne book with his used book order (coming from the UK). He didn't know a thing about who Mayne was, and said, "This book was so much better than the one I paid for! Really really good! I can't believe I haven't heard of this guy!"

And I hadn't, either.

Maybe if we don't engage in 'hero-worship', this won't be a problem? Stop putting fellow humans on pedestals? :)