The Mookse and the Gripes discussion

Diego Garcia by Natasha Soobramanien & Luke Williams (Fitzcarraldo Editions)

Very happy to see this here. One of my top books of the year so far.

Yes this deserves its place - I wasn’t sure if a joint authored book would qualify for a prize. Indeed the book addresses that very question.

This is one I'm keen to read, apart from anything else nice to see Adorno's work making an appearance!

Has anyone who read this also read The Lost Colony by Philippe Sands

As happens with many of my English-original Fitzcarraldo subscription copies, I never picked this up, but now I have an excellent reason to read it!

I read The Last Colony by Philippe Sands only last week. A fascinating read. While I think I would have enjoyed it more if I had a legal background - it was still excellent. I am excited to read this novel.

The Last Colony looks intriguing but the blurb makes it sound overly melodramatic. What did you make of it Susan?

David wrote: "The Last Colony looks intriguing but the blurb makes it sound overly melodramatic. What did you make of it Susan?"

I've read his previous books and they're accessible but decidedly lawyerly, if that helps, I think he's an excellent non-fiction writer, I particularly liked East West Street: On the Origins of "Genocide" and "Crimes Against Humanity"

I planned to read this with the Sands but when the Sands comes down in price.

I read And enjoyed East West street also

David wrote: "The Last Colony looks intriguing but the blurb makes it sound overly melodramatic. What did you make of it Susan?"

Try this David,

A lecture by Professor Philippe Sands: The Chagos Archipelago: The Last British Colony in Africa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIRVW...

The lecture starts around the 21-minute mark

David wrote: "The Last Colony looks intriguing but the blurb makes it sound overly melodramatic. What did you make of it Susan?"

I enjoyed it. I didn't find it particularly melodramatic. It was quite lawyerly as Alwynne states. I think the addition of a bit of melodrama made it seem a little more palatable. I found the politics particularly interesting. As an Australian I was a little embarrassed by the way our government kowtowed to Britain (like we were still a colony...perhaps we are...) so I got an insight into a world I know little about.

Also having recently read The Colony and then both Glory and Seven Moons which are set during the turmoil following decolonisation - this gave me more food for thought.

I'm a bit surprised this book is at the bottom or near the bottom of the rankings (so far). This is one of my favorite books of the year. The competition is fierce.

I just read the Sands book and really enjoyed it.

David wrote: "I'm a bit surprised this book is at the bottom or near the bottom of the rankings (so far). This is one of my favorite books of the year. The competition is fierce."

I think it is too early to read much into the rankings beyond it being a tight contest.

Two books aren’t even rated yet

For anyone new to the Chagos Islands story I picked up a copy of The Atlantic magazine a few months back which had an excellent article on it. I think The Atlantic allows 1 free article a month so link is below

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...

It was fascinating for me as it turns out that one of the main groups of ex Chagos Islanders in the world is based less than 10 miles from my home

Where is that, the place less than 10 miles?

(Though less than 10 miles from my home for me where a decent proportion of the UK population live, including most of the famous ones, the King, the Prime Minister etc! Whereas say 10 miles from where our mother lives covers only a few ‘000 people).

One reason this isn’t top of my rankings. The book Diego Garcia which has been shortlisted is only really part of the project Diego Garcia. From the authors:

Part of our interrogating the novel form involves not just our writing it but our approach to its publication
• It will be published by Fitzcarraldo editions
• But before that, as each chapter is completed, it is published in various journals and magazines (we’ve published chapters in White Review, BOMB, Semiotext(e), Book Works, and others)
• After each chapter comes out we put it on our tumblr and give a series of performances from the work in progress, which we consider part of the publication strategy
• Part of the result of the performances is that they create a kind of social encounter with the text and invite discussion
• We see the project in terms of trying to rethink how we might approach the novel form for our times is also about trying to collapse the distinction between its production its finished form.
• To open out the novel to a kind of continuous practice of writing, writing collaboratively, of living and working together.

Which is admirable and justifies its place on the list, but means the reading of the novel alone doesn’t really capture the full project.

(Links to the tumblr and also another chapter of the book published standalone on my review)

Ah but that is one reason it is at the top of my list!

The story isn’t contained by the novel. It is a story still being written.

Interesting... this makes me think of the social performance of oral epic poetry from Homer to Beowulf, or the theatre-as-communal-debate of Athenian tragedy to the pre-mass media public role of drama. Or even nineteenth century serialisation where Dickens, for example, changed his plots in response to readers reactions.

Those would be very intriguing launch points for a fiction project, RC. I mean it more in the sense of the real world story is still being written. The novel is meant to be part of the dialogue around that larger story. It is a point of engagement. For a reader who engages further with the real story, the novel will at some point be left behind.

Paul wrote: "We see the project in terms of trying to rethink how we might approach the novel form for our times is also about trying to collapse the distinction between its production its finished form.
• To open out the novel to a kind of continuous practice of writing, writing collaboratively, of living and working together."

This kind of thing makes me lose the will to live. That's great that they're doing all that... makes a nice publicity tie-in, but the only reason anyone has heard of this is because it's a novel published by Fitzcarraldo.

I'm a big fan of the novel as self-contained world between covers, without tie-ins, performances, wine pairings, dog walkings, sponsored trips or what-have-you.

I hadn't heard about the publicity tie-ins :/

David wrote: "I hadn't heard about the publicity tie-ins :/"

That may have been my clumsy writing. I was referring to "After each chapter comes out we put it on our tumblr and give a series of performances from the work in progress, which we consider part of the publication strategy."

But it's fair to say this book has rubbed me the wrong way since I heard of it so I'm probably just not the audience...

I'll have to look at what they are doing a bit closer, but my sense is that the authors are primarily concerned with engaging the public with the issue, of which the novel is a part - rather than public engagement as a means to sell more books. Although admittedly there is a hazy line at the margin.

I like this from the authors:
Part of the result of the performances is that they create a kind of social encounter with the text and invite discussion.

Part of the result of the performances is that they create a kind of social encounter with the text and invite discussion."

So... like a book presentation then. Or a book club.

Emily wrote: "Part of the result of the performances is that they create a kind of social encounter with the text and invite discussion."

So... like a book presentation then. Or a book club."

I'm with you Emily, the Peckham literati have become such a cliche, plus the sequence of events makes reading the novel equivalent to buying the catalogue for an exhibition you didn't see or watching the YouTube video of a performance art piece.

I'm not sure. I didn't even know tumblr still existed. I think you need an account to view their tumblr page (which I don't have). This all suggests it is not a high engagement venture after all.

David wrote: "I'm not sure. I didn't even know tumblr still existed. I think you need an account to view their tumblr page (which I don't have). This all suggests it is not a high engagement venture after all."

I think that was part of my initial point, that it's great to swan around saying we're unconventional because of this and that but actually it's a book. All that other stuff doesn't strike me as any more relevant than if the authors wrote a controversial tweet (which could also change your reading experience).

There seem to be multiple layers of meta-awareness operating with this project. The book itself is about writing a book. And the marketing campaign, such as it is, seems to be invisible - much in the same way the plight of the Chagossian people is invisible. I really like this.

Edit: I posted this before I saw your last post, Emily. I think we are seeing the same thing and coming to opposite conclusions :)

David wrote: "There seem to be multiple layers of meta-awareness operating with this project. The book itself is about writing a book. And the marketing campaign, such as it is, seems to be invisible - much in t..."

It's very Goldsmiths, so make sense it's on the list. The performances were in places like Peckham which used to be considered a cutting-edge, but dodgy, urban area so lots of arty white people moved there and priced out the locals. It's just that, for me, anyway that whole subculture has an air of desperation, an attempt to recreate the radical, performance art scene of the 70s. But actually, carried out in a an extremely self-conscious, artificial way for audiences of people who are very much not radical. And from the extracts I've seen the literary/cultural references are exactly the ones I'd expect to see, the canonical countercultural - if that makes any sense!

That's a very fair reading of this, Alwynne. For me, it seems to relish in its obscurity, rather than be an act of desperation. The decision to use an invisible (and discredited) platform like tumblr is the key for me.

David wrote: "That's a very fair reading of this, Alwynne. For me, it seems to relish in its obscurity, rather than be an act of desperation. The decision to use an invisible (and discredited) platform like tumb..."

It's similar to the now-mainstream reclaiming vinyl trend, so quite a calculatedly fashionable decision. Semiotext(e) as the US publisher makes perfect sense.

If it were a trend aimed at selling more books, I'd be turned off by it. But it seems deliberately anti-commercial.

David wrote: "If it were a trend aimed at selling more books, I'd be turned off by it. But it seems deliberately anti-commercial."

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/inf...

tumblr was very popular with art-school students etc a few years ago and that led to it crossing back into the mainstream. So, it fits with the whole Peckham, Goldsmiths scene at the time the book was being "serialised".

Tumblr seems to be an excellent choice for cosplaying a marketing campaign that will reach almost no one.

To appeal to the Goldsmiths/Peckham/art-school/media student/arts academic circle it's important to give the appearance of things being off the beaten track or outside the mainstream. It wouldn't reach older people or people outside of that circle but if it did that would lessen the appeal, dilute its appearance of being exclusive to a certain grouping.

Alwynne wrote: "To appeal to the Goldsmiths/Peckham/art-school/media student/arts academic circle it's important to give the appearance of things being off the beaten track or outside the mainstream. It wouldn't reach older people or people outside of that circle but if it did that would lessen the appeal, dilute its appearance of being exclusive to a certain grouping."

I think that's exactly right. Perhaps it should turn me off but it doesn't. It's the opposite approach of engagement by, say, TikTok or even twitter, both of which would make this rather banal.

Exactly, it's the equivalent of a word-of-mouth campaign that builds support for a very particular niche audience, so it's not about having a lot of people knowing about it, it's about having the right people know about it. Then when that campaign reaches its peak, the book gets published in an accessible form that will appeal to a broader, but still relatively niche audience. It's a similar approach to building a street-style fashion brand, will start out with a very discreet following usually art students, fashion underground fanzine equivalents, then get picked up by boutiques in places like Islington or Stoke Newington or Dover Street Market and be bought by people who want to feel they're still cutting edge but aren't really, then if the brand really takes off moves into a much more mainstream market. Meanwhile the art students, early influencers will have long since moved on to something else.

Tik-Tok would be far too vulgar, and Twitter's not been "out" for long enough to be "in" again!

Edit: I'm not sure how to situate places like Peckham for someone in America - but would be similar to trends around New York neighbourhoods. Although Peckham's pretty much past its prime now and the artists, writers, students who made it fashionable are also being priced out, this is an indication of the kind of cultural groupings at its peak:

https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/new-g...

https://www.timeout.com/london/things...

Before that Shoreditch and before that Hackney/Stoke Newington were the places to be/exhibit etc but again the house prices/rents are too high now for a lot of the people who originally made them the places to be. Now more likely to be run over by an ultra-expensive pushchair wielded by a banker's wife than bump into an artist or student.

Perhaps it's my distance from the world you are describing but I think it's a very clever approach. I could see someone being quite turned off by it, though.

It’s sounds like Peckham underwent gentrification.

Diego Garcia is new and interesting to those unfamiliar with the niche group that created it and contrived to those familiar with that art scene, but wouldn’t that be true of all art projects that are so interesting they capture a wider audience? I can understand people familiar with the group that created it feeling it’s nothing new, but for people unaware it is still something new and interesting.

You make banker's wives yielding ultra-expensive pushchairs sound like a bad thing - all my children grew up riding in one :-)

Ultra-expensive pushchairs, converse tennis shoes-same story. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, it just is. Cutting edge reaching the mainstream then the originators being called sell-outs is a common story.

WndyJW wrote: "Ultra-expensive pushchairs, converse tennis shoes-same story. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, it just is. Cutting edge reaching the mainstream then the originators being called sell-outs is a comm..."

Yep! Although Converse has fallen, and Veja and Novesta have taken over.

Paul wrote: "You make banker's wives yielding ultra-expensive pushchairs sound like a bad thing - all my children grew up riding in one :-)"

Finding yourself on a narrow pavement with one of them nipping at your heels is not the greatest experience! Although I'm sure yours was steered with the utmost delicacy.

Haha I was going to protest for the rights of pushchairs but you’ve just reminded me of being literally knocked off the pavement by a latte holding, lululemon sporting, Porsche of pushchair pushers on Queen St West in Toronto so I’ll just say amen.

Next you will be complaining that large 4x4s are not designed for an urban environment.