Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

The Conference of the Birds is to be read February 2023.

I thought this was going to be February?
but I could be wrong! ;o)

Sara, Darren is right, I think this is meant to be February.

Hey all, is everyone still ready to read this starting in February? I have my copy and am ready to go. It looks like there are several sections in the book, and the poem is quite long.

I was thinking a good way to do it might be to take one section each week? With this book-length Sufi poem, I thought maybe it would be best to take our time. If we do that, we'd do:

Feb 1-7: "The Birds of the World Gather"
Feb 8-14: "The Birds Confer and Make Excuses"
Feb 15-21: "The Birds Prepare for the Journey"
Feb 22-28: "The Birds Begin the Journey"
Mar 1-7: "The Birds Complain and Boast"
Mar 8-14: "The Birds Voice Their Fears"
Mar 15-21: "The Birds Ask About the Beloved"
Mar 22-28: "The Seven Valleys"
Mar 29-31: "The Journey of the Birds"

What does everyone think? If people would prefer to take it faster, I could go for that too.

What edition/translation are we using? I see that the number of pages vary even between the Norton and Penguin editions. The editions available in my library are all more in the 100 page range.

Annette wrote: "What edition/translation are we using? I see that the number of pages vary even between the Norton and Penguin editions. The editions available in my library are all more in the 100 page range."

Interesting! I wonder if some of them are only partial translations. Can you take a look at one of the translations that are shorter and see if it is broken into sections like mine?

This is my translation: The Conference of the Birds

It's 368 pages

No problem if we all use different translations - that often makes things more interesting. We just need to be able to tell which parts correspond. This poem tells of a journey in parts so hopefully we can line them up.

The type is pretty big in mine. If in Norton or Penguin the type is small, that might account for some of the difference.

Greg, I have decided to skip the introduction part, I like the poetry and imagery of the book already (just gone through few pages)

Nidhi wrote: "Greg, I have decided to skip the introduction part, I like the poetry and imagery of the book already (just gone through few pages)"

It is quite lovely Nidhi! Which translation are you reading?

I am reading an e-book of 279 pages and Translated by Afham Darbandi and Dick Davis.

Greg wrote: "Hey all, is everyone still ready to read this starting in February? I have my copy and am ready to go. It looks like there are several sections in the book, and the poem is quite long.

I was think..."

This schedule is good , as this is philosophy, and would need much pondering.

Nidhi wrote: "This schedule is good , as this is philosophy, and would need much pondering"

That's what I was thinking too.

It will be interesting to compare translations as we go. I'm glad we will be working with some different ones!

Annette, let me know if the copy you find matches up. I'm hoping it has similar divisions so we can all match up where we are.

I am a mostly ignorant of Sufi teachings and of Islamic mythology so I have a lot to learn. But from just glancing at the poem this morning, it strikes me as both beautiful and profound. I'm eager and excited to be reading this with both of you!

I am familiar with Sufism as it is there in India, Its philosophy has few similarities with Indian Spiritual Philosophy. If you have read Siddhartha and Journey to The East by Hesse , you will find familiar trails.

Nidhi wrote: "I am familiar with Sufism as it is there in India, Its philosophy has few similarities with Indian Spiritual Philosophy. If you have read Siddhartha and Journey to The East by Hesse , you will find..."

Oh great! I am a little familiar with Indian Spiritual philosophies so hopefully I won't get too lost. :)

Greg wrote: "Nidhi wrote: "I am familiar with Sufism as it is there in India, Its philosophy has few similarities with Indian Spiritual Philosophy. If you have read Siddhartha and Journey to The East by Hesse ,..."

It will be a great reading experience.

I’ve requested the 160 page edition translated by Peter Sis from the library. By googling it, I can see a few pages online but I cannot tell until it arrives if it is divided like the Norton translated by Wolpe. Other than the Peter Sis, I can see ebooks at my library but they are even shorter and no translators are given. I also found an audiobook translated by Wolpe at my library but I would not have a hard copy to follow along with.

Annette wrote: "I’ve requested the 160 page edition translated by Peter Sis from the library. By googling it, I can see a few pages online but I cannot tell until it arrives if it is divided like the Norton transl..."

That's ok Annette, when it arrives we'll figure it out. I suspect we'll be able to line them up, but if not we'll figure out something.

my ebook has a big introduction, which reveals all, and end notes also, I think the book will be around 150-180 pages only.

Nidhi wrote: "I am reading an e-book of 279 pages and Translated by Afham Darbandi and Dick Davis."

I'm looking at a Penguin edition of that translation - the main text is 200 pages, so I would expect to get through it OK in one month

I'll probably end up using the Nott translation.

I started reading Faces of Love: Hafez and the Poets of Shiraz last year so have some idea of the kind of rhythm to expect.

The The Conference of the Birds itself is a central part of Bird Summons by Leila Aboulela which I read last year. I'd like to see if I can understand some of the magic realism elements of that better once I've read this.

The split looks fine to me, Greg, I hope I can figure it out in my copy.

Well I have started!
on page 8/201
the birds are assembled, they have their guide (the hoopoe) and a putative king (the Simorgh) to seek, and I think they're all about to start making excuses...

My translation has quite a long Invocation which I read today. So I'll be starting the assembly tomorrow.

I just picked up my Peter Sis translation. Ohh! It is gorgeously illustrated! The parts are different than listed by Greg but I will be able to line it up.

Sounds great everyone. We can tentatively go with the schedule I posted earlier but if the majority want to speed it up, we can do that.

I'll post some thoughts on the invocation/birds gathering tomorrow. It's quite beautiful, even in translation!

THE BIRDS OF THE WORLD GATHER (section 1)

Some thoughts about the first sequence of poems of the birds gathering:


First sequence overall:

In my copy, "The Birds of the World Gather" section has 13 poems: "The Hoopoe," "The Ringdove," "The Parrot", "The Partridge", "The Falcon", "The Francolin", "The Nightingale", "The Peacock", "The Pheasant", "The Pigeon", "The Turtledove", "The Hawk", and "The Goldfinch."

One thing that struck me: there are warnings to avoid the ego and pride in almost every poem in this sequence, from the Ringdove's "brutish pharaoh" of ego to the Hoopoe's "ego monster," from the Partridge's "mountain abode of . . . ego" that must be destroyed to the Francolin's ego that is a "cyclone of calamities."

          *           *          *

"The Turtledove"

It seems that the ego is to be escaped in order to reach something higher. I like this part in "The Turtledove":

"If you let a single feather from your existence remain,
I'd call all of you unfaithful
from the tip of your beak to the end of your claw.

Enter, and then exit your self, . . ."

I take this as meaning that self-awareness must be relinquished; but what is selfish or egotistical is so central to a person's identity that letting go of it is almost like relinquishing one's own existence. It is an exiting of the self. But by giving that up, something greater becomes possible, something that has the possibility of faithfulness.

I wonder how the other translations of "The Turtledove" read? Wolpe's translation is quite lovely, though she has a footnote indicating that the first sentence is nearly untranslatable.

The first lines of her translation of "The Turtledove" reads:

"Welcome, Turtledove, loose the stop from your throat,
and the Seven Heavens will rainstorm jewels on you."

Such a lovely metaphor - the release of the stop in the throat of the bird that prevents the bird's music.

          *           *          *

"The Parrot"

"Welcome, Parrot who nests in the Tree of Heaven,
who wears a celestial robe and bears a flaming necklace.

The fire licking your throat is from Hell
and your robe is a gift from Heaven.
Like Abraham, if you defy Nimrod,
the fire you dwell in will blossom into a garden . . . .

Once cleansed of Nimrod's pollution,
you can wear your heavenly robe
and not dread your necklace of fire."

Nimrod is the builder of the Tower of Babel who tried to build a tower so high that he could reach God; Nimrod wanted to become like God. And that same pride exists within the Parrot's heart. But if the parrot can overcome his own pride (if he can "defy" the Nimrod of his own heart), he can bring into balance the "Heaven" and "Hell" of his own feathers.

Hell is the fire in the feathers on the bird's throat. And Heaven is the colorful feathers on the rest of the bird. But if the Parrot can defeat his pride, he can wear his heavenly robe of feathers without fearing the fire at his throat. The fire becomes harmless. It is only his pride that makes it dangerous. If he can defeat it, "the fire you dwell in will blossom into a garden."

          *           *          *

"The Partridge

I was struck by the startling image in this one:

"Destroy the mountain abode of your ego
so that, as in the miracle for the Smood tribe,
a pregnant camel can leap out of hard rock."

It says in the footnote that according to a traditional tale, members of the tribe told the Prophet Mohammad, "We will believe in you, if you make appear from among the rocks a furry camel, ten months pregant." And then, the Prophet performed the miracle of making the pregnant camel leap out of it.

I find this story so visual and compelling! It reminds me a bit of the traditional Christian/Jewish story of Moses striking a rock with his staff and making water spring from the rock for the people to drink.

There's another footnote about the poem "The Peacock" that describes the Lote Tree in the seventh Heaven of the Quran and the Tree of Life. The mention of these trees interested me as well. I like the references to traditional Islamic stories in these poems; the stories are fresh for me as I had never heard many of them before.

          *           *          *

Which of the poems in this first sequence were others' favorites? Or what struck any of you about them? I'm curious as to translations too.

I suspect many of our translations are very different from each other. From the introduction, it sounds like some of them might attempt to preserve the rhyming and form, while others might sacrifice some of those aspects in order to keep enough latitude to make the meaning clearer.

It turns out that the Peter Sis book for all of its illustrated loveliness is extremely abridged. So much so that I’ll be seeking another edition. I do have an audio of Wolpe’s translation from the library but I want a hard copy to follow along.

Annette wrote: "It turns out that the Peter Sis book for all of its illustrated loveliness is extremely abridged. So much so that I’ll be seeking another edition. I do have an audio of Wolpe’s translation from the..."

That's too bad Annette - I hope you can find one that works for you!

I had tried one of the group's monthly reads Praise of Folly on audio, and wow, that book is dense with extremely complex sentence structures and many, many clauses to each sentence! I think I'm going to need to switch to a hard copy to read that one. But Wolpe's translation of this work is quite straightforward and readable - I think it will work well on audio, though I completely understand why you want a hard copy as well to follow along. I am the same way, especially with poetry.

When reading about the nightingale and its love for roses, I remembered reading something similar in the poems of Hafez. The lines are
"Sing, Nightingale! rosebuds unopened yet
will leave you and your fear - is sweet.
Dear singer of the night, for those in love
your sad lament is clear - and sweet."

The notes in my translation Faces of Love: Hafez and the Poets of Shiraz states that the nightingale's love for the rose as a metaphor for human hopeless love-longing, is a common trope in mediaeval Persian poetry.

It would be interesting to know what other tropes is represented by the birds, but my knowledge is limited to the notes in Hafez at this stage.

The birds are now getting ready to set off on their journey. I'm reading this in small bites and it works well for me so far.

I noticed that we had a slightly different set of birds in the second section.

Well spotted, Annette. In the first section the birds are identified by species, but in my version they are only referred to as The First Bird or The Second Bird in this section.

Well, here we are on a journey but with a sheikh instead of birds. I am interested in how this will tie back in.

Carolien wrote: "Well spotted, Annette. In the first section the birds are identified by species, but in my version they are only referred to as The First Bird or The Second Bird in this section."

I broke down and bought the Wolpe edition. It lists bird species in the second section: Hoopoe, Nightingale, Parrot, Peacock, Duck, Partridge, Osprey, Heron, Owl, Goldfinch plus a section for Other Birds.

I had to finish this a bit faster for my book had to be returned to the library. I will return toward the discussion end with my thoughts.

It's funny how your reading sometimes overlap. This morning I was reading the excuses of the eighth bird who lives in a charming spot and who is then told by the hoopoe that it will become a prison when death arrives. I'm also reading The Night Will Have Its Say which is set in what is now Libya during the 8th century. A seer is trying to protect her tribe from the invading Muslims and her frustration is that they won't leave their houses and cities to go into the desert where they will be better protected. She eventually starts destroying her own people's settlements to force them to leave these. Her view coincide exactly with the Hoopoe's.

Has anyone finished this? I finished the Peter Sis translation but the Wolpe version got set aside. I am trying to pick it back up. It has so many tales & fables that it seems to be more of a collection of these rather than a poem about the birds’ search for a leader.

I think Peter Sis is an illustrator not a translator

I read the Penguin Dick/Darbandi translation which I thought was excellent

I think you're right, it seemed to me a "handbook" of anecdotes illustrating various aspects of Sufi-ism, for which the Birds' search for the Simorgh is a framing device

Perhaps I should have said the Peter Sis adaptation rather than translation. Anyway- it was beautiful.

I finally made an effort to finish the Wolpe version. There were too many seemingly unrelated parables for my taste. It lost all cohesion. But I finished :) I gave a combined rating of the Sis, York Lombard and Wolpe 4 stars. Sis & York Lombard definitely pulled the score up.