Works of Thomas Hardy discussion

Christmas Eve, and twelve of the clock.
“Now they are all on their knees,”
An elder said as we sat in a flock
By the embers in hearthside ease.

We pictured the meek mild creatures where
They dwelt in their strawy pen,
Nor did it occur to one of us there
To doubt they were kneeling then.

So fair a fancy few would weave
In these years! Yet, I feel,
If someone said on Christmas Eve,
“Come; see the oxen kneel,

“In the lonely barton by yonder coomb
Our childhood used to know,”
I should go with him in the gloom,
Hoping it might be so.

I’ve always admired this poem, even outside of its Christmas theme. It does a wonderful job of combining three things: childhood, hope, and possibility.

https://www.hardysociety.org/media/bi...

I like how this poem gathers a group by a fire — the hearth side ease. We are there with the others. When we have the story told, we are all sitting there not doubting that the oxen might kneel on Christmas Eve. Yet, the idea to actually see it — as if taken by the hand, as a child.

The poem pushes and pulls us from adulthood and childhood. Note how quickly and without a second thought do we go to see the oxen. Hardy leaves us both with the excitement and trepidation of finding out.

John

Thank you for this poem and the link. I know little of Hardy’s poetry, but this one I have carried in my mind for such a long time.

There is something ethereal about the words, the images press gently into one’s conscience. I agree with you that this poem leaves us with both “excitement and trepidation.”

To think that this poem was published at Christmas of 1915 in the midst of World War One. The poem remains as fresh as today’s news.

John, I love how you've found a poem that ties in with both Christmas and a story told in the dairy in Tess of the D’Urbervilles (Chapter 17).

One of the magical things about Christmas is that we all have stories and music from our childhood that still have special meaning to us as adults. I've read that Hardy's mother passed down many folk stories and traditions to him.

Hardy was raised as a Christian but lost his faith as an adult. In the poem, he has shown how important his childhood memories of Christmas stories are to him. There was no doubt to the child and to past generations that the oxen would be kneeling.

But Hardy is no longer a believer, and he shows that ambivalence in the last lines:

"I should go with him in the gloom,
Hoping it might be so."

The only line in this poem that I don’t understand is:

“So fair a fancy few would weave in these years.”

I am uncertain of the meaning.

Connie wrote: "John, I love how you've found a poem that ties in with both Christmas and a story told in the dairy in Tess of the D’Urbervilles (Chapter 17)..."

Great observation! And of course we discussed Thomas Hardy's increasing ambivalence towards his Christian faith a great deal during that read, with dozens of examples. So it matches well.

John wrote: "The only line in this poem that I don’t understand is:

“So fair a fancy few would weave in these years.”

I am uncertain of the meaning."

John

Could this line be referring to memories? As a child, such a story of the oxen kneeling would be both believable and imagined. As an adult, however, Hardy’s belief has been tarnished and so, in the gloom, one can only hope the story of oxen kneeling is true.

John wrote: "The only line in this poem that I don’t understand is:

“So fair a fancy few would weave in these years.”

I am uncertain of the meaning."

Those lines are the only ones I wasn't sure of either. The only thing I could figure was that the thing that was "fair" was the story that the elders are "weaving" about the cows over different years while the children are flocked by the hearth. But that reading doesn't really satisfy me because "fancy" doesn't fit . . . although maybe it could be used in a way like fanciful few, the few fanciful elders telling the story? I don't feel at all confident that I am reading that line correctly.

It's a wonderful poem though John!

I love the simplicity of the urge to believe in this seemingly impossible thing . . . that at that moment of Christmas Eve during the elders' story, the oxen are kneeling. It's such a beautiful idea that whether the speaker feels it can be real or not, he wants to believe it. And deep down, that wish is a part of him - it has a hold on his heart, at a level much deeper and more powerful than logic.

Peter and Greg, thanks for your observations. When I cobble together these observations, I see this line a little better. The words “so fair” confused me a bit because I think just stating a fancy few would have such memories was sufficient. I was not sure of the intended purpose or meaning of “so fair.”

Greg, John, Bionic Jean

Wonderful observations. Thinking about the line - and the poem in general - could this idea fit?

The story of Christ’s birth has caused much disbelieve through history. After all, it takes faith to believe in the miraculous. Could this poem serve as a microcosm of the multiple centuries of scepticism that surround the miraculous birth? Reduced to its essence, this poem presents country folk on Christmas Eve pondering stories they can neither prove nor disprove. In the line “our childhood used to know” we learn that children know the story of the oxen kneeling is true; on the other hand, as adults, “in the gloom” we can only hope the story is true. Knowing and hoping, what is it that makes these words so different? I think the answer is Faith.”

Peter wrote: "Greg, John, Bionic Jean

Wonderful observations. Thinking about the line - and the poem in general - could this idea fit?

The story of Christ’s birth has caused much disbelieve through history. Af..."

Peter, I see a metaphor for faith in this line: “nor did it occur to one of us there to doubt…”

John

Absolutely!

John asked what we thought of "So fair a fancy few would weave
In these years!"

I'm thinking of "fancy" as a noun, so "so fair a fancy" could be a 'beautiful imagined thought.'

Then, "few would weave in these years" could be 'few people would be telling/believing this story as adults.'

We really don't question all the religious stories we are taught as children, and many are just allegories.

Connie wrote: "I'm thinking of "fancy" as a noun, so "so fair a fancy" could be a 'beautiful imagined thought.'

Then, "few would w..."

I like that Connie, definitely better than the way I was reading it. "Fancy" does function more naturally as a noun rather than as an adjective of "few." My brain wasn't separating fancy and few for some reason, but now that you proposed reading those as belonging to separate phrases, in re-reading it, I much prefer it that way.

Once I separate those phrases, it sounds to me like it's saying: Nowadays ("in these days"), few people would tell ("few would weave") such beautiful and fanciful stories ("so fair a fancy") like these elders did back then. Maybe there's a little wistfulness for the simplicity of those earlier times when a story like this could be told and believed? There may be an element of historical shift here, where in mid-nineteenth century England religious belief itself shifted in character somewhat, at least in some circles.

I like what you say about some religious stories being meant as allegories. Like Jesus' fables, they are meant to demonstrate a point. Just because you don't believe the oxen bow on midnight on Christmas Eve doesn't necessarily mean you don't believe in Christ.

I remember some essays by Arthur Hugh Clough contemporaneous to Hardy's time where he talked about separating mythologies from the core faith. I know there was a lot of controversy about such things in that era.

I find something so beautiful in the innocence of believing the oxen actually physically bow at midnight though. The purity of that belief; it has the naive trust of a child in it. And it might appeal to Hardy on some deep level, regardless of what at that point he had come to believe (or not believe). Just because we are conflicted about something or because we intellectually stop believing in something does not stop those old long-standing patterns and those old ways of perceiving the world from having power in us. There is so much that affects us that is at a deeper level than what we consciously choose to believe

Connie wrote: "John asked what we thought of "So fair a fancy few would weave
In these years!"

I'm thinking of "fancy" as a noun, so "so fair a fancy" could be a 'beautiful imagined thought.'

Then, "few would w..."

I agree this works. "Fair" would seem the adjective for fancy.

Greg, thanks for your thoughts. Even today some people literally interpret the Bible, while others think of the Bible as myths that illustrate how to live a good life. Many of the stories have a strong emotional pull on us all our lives. So many authors use Biblical references in their works because they are so powerful.

The story about the oxen kneeling does have a sweet beauty to it, so I can understand how Hardy would remember it from his childhood.

I think Thomas Hardy is thinking of the hymn "Good Christian Men Rejoice". The first verse is:

"Good Christian men, rejoice
With heart, and soul, and voice;
Give ye heed to what we say:
News! News!
Jesus Christ was born to-day:
Ox and ass before Him bow,
And He is in the manger now.
Christ is born today! Christ is born today."

The rest of the carol and more info is here: https://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas...

It's very old - probably 14th century - but quite popular still here. In fact l'm humming it in my head! It inspired Art showing the animals kneeling before the manger.

I agree too Connie "fancy" is a noun in that context. A "fancy" can be a whimsical idea, thus "so fair a fancy" means a nice, pretty idea.

After reading this poem this morning, I started looking for an explanation of the line "So far a fancy few would weave in these years!" but most explanations didn't make sense to me. But I did learn an interesting point — Hardy wrote this in 1915, and many literary critics somehow tie the line to the First World War.

I think I like your explanations better.

Greg wrote: "Connie wrote: "I'm thinking of "fancy" as a noun, so "so fair a fancy" could be a 'beautiful imagined thought.'

Then, "few would w..."

I like that Connie, definitely better than the way I was rea..."



“The purity of that belief…” what a wonderful phrase. That is the essence of faith.

This is a wonderful discussion of a lovely poem (thank you John!) that has brought me closer into the meaning of this poem. I've been thinking about the oxen kneeling before the Christ child and wondering why that is such a moving image.

For me, it has to do with something being more awesome and powerful than Nature. The oxen represent all of "nature" and they pay homage to the coming savior, in a way that acknowledges his superiority over nature itself. The people are also grouped with the animals in the line "as we sat in a flock". That's a powerful image for me.

I like thinking of the poem this way, but I'm not sure how that all fits with Hardy's personal philosophy which at times places Nature above God. Maybe as Connie suggested it's the magic of childhood Christmas that Hardy taps into here.

At any rate, thank you everyone for your wonderful thoughts. I enjoyed reading them all very much!

Although the poem is not a war poem, it probably can be said that it was a response to the Great War. That war changed history because the beliefs and traditions people had before that war fell away because of that war. Here is something I came across:

The hopeful note sounded by Hardy’s final line is perhaps at odds with the pessimistic tone of much of his poetry, but makes sense in the context of his fondness for magical beliefs as part of rustic cultural traditions.

John wrote: "Although the poem is not a war poem, it probably can be said that it was a response to the Great War. That war changed history because the beliefs and traditions people had before that war fell awa..."

That sounds credible to me John.

I realized today that I do not have this poem committed to memory. I like having a handful of poems committed to memory in order to recite. I also have a few Psalms committed to memory (Psalm 46 is my favorite).

So my project for today is to commit to memory.

John wrote: "Although the poem is not a war poem, it probably can be said that it was a response to the Great War. That war changed history because the beliefs and traditions people had before that war fell awa..."

I like this thought very much. Thank you, John.

I hope the memorization of this poem is going well. It's certainly a poem worth the effort

"The Oxen" is one of the very few poems by Hardy that I'd read before joining this group; but it's definitely one of my all-time favorite poems by any author! I'm very much appreciating the discussion here.

Bridget wrote: "John wrote: "Although the poem is not a war poem, it probably can be said that it was a response to the Great War. That war changed history because the beliefs and traditions people had before that..."

Memorization completed, Bridget. Thanks. I find the idea of memorizing is more daunting as I get older, but this went fine.

I find a preference for rhymes for memorization, but unrhymed iambic pentameter is fine, too. Although Shakespeare is the gold standard for that, I always found Christopher Marlowe to be equally good at times. I can see why audiences way back then found that particular beat as mesmerizing as the words.

Safe and Happy Christmas Wishes to All. We are experiencing 40 mph winds this morning in coastal North Carolina. I am home with my books and cats.

And, in keeping with this thread, I am imagining myself walking through the winds and the cold and the swaying pine trees to see the oxen kneeling.

A safe and Happy Christmas to all. And yes, I too see the oxen kneeling.

Sending warm wishes for a wonderful Christmas!

Thank you for choosing this lovely poem for Christmas week, John.

Echoing the Christmas good wishes to all that others have already expressed!

Just to keep the merry going, Happy Holidays everyone!!

Thinking again of the 3rd verse, beginning:

"So fair a fancy few would weave
In these years!"

We've talked about the "fair fancy", but not "these years".

As John says this poem was published when the First World War had been raging for over a year, in "The Times" on 24th December 1915.

Historically then, "these years" of slaughter were much worse even than the years of the Second Boer War. Thomas Hardy had depicted that time in such tragic and despairing poems as "A Christmas Ghost Story", "At the War Office London" and "Drummer Hodge". (I actually considered posting the first of these as our Christmas poem, but after the two previous war poems we've had, it just seemed too bleak!)

Anyway, Thomas Hardy was now 75 years old. And both from the viewpoint of the World War and from the his own personal viewpoint of doubts and scepticism, it seems significant that he seems to have moved into the present, in a conditional sort of way. Originally Thomas Hardy wrote "believe" and he later changed it to "weave".

So, looking now at "would weave" ...

"Weave" is a wonderful word to have used. It is so evocative - and is another connection to the traditional country folk-tales and homespun ways Thomas Hardy loved :)

Also, weaving is literally making a fabric by crossing the threads. So if you interlace the threads in this way, you are including all sorts of different elements into the fabric as you weave to and fro. Yet another aspect is that the word "weaving" has associations with something that may not be literally true, so it is an apt word for a folk tradition.

The certainties of the first two verses have now faded into uncertainty "would", "I should", "hoping". So although this feels like a simple, happy and optimistic poem to start with, it's actually typically contemplative, with Thomas Hardy's underlying doubts and questions.

Interesting Jean about weave and believe. I prefer weave and find it evocative of home spun things. Also, believe seems too overt. Weave is more subtle, a piecing together, a handiwork.

Hi Jean,

I love the point you make here about Hardy's use of "would weave" in stanza three. When I read the lines "So fair a fancy few would/Weave in these years," it seemed as if the speaker was literally using "weaving" to connect the past to the present.











Bionic Jean wrote: "So, looking now at "would weave" ...

"Weave" is a wonderful word to have used. It is so evocative - and is another connection to the traditional country folk-tales and homespun ways [author:Thoma..."

Safe and Happy Christmas Wishes to you too, John, and to all who are celebrating the holiday this year!

Here in Michigan, we are also in the middle of a winter storm and experiencing subzero temperatures and blowing snow. So, it looks like those who dreamed of a white Christmas here will get their wish this year. :)

John wrote: "Safe and Happy Christmas Wishes to All. We are experiencing 40 mph winds this morning in coastal North Carolina. I am home with my books and cats.

And, in keeping with this thread, I am imagining ..."

Thank you, and from me to everyone, LINK HERE 😊

Bionic Jean wrote: "Thank you, and from me to everyone, LINK HERE 😊"

Thank you, Jean!

And thanks, everyone, for the great discussion of the poem.

More thoughts on the poem are welcome, of course! I didn't mean to curtail it ...

If someone said on Christmas Eve,
“Come; see the oxen kneel,

“In the lonely barton by yonder coomb
Our childhood used to know,”
I should go with him in the gloom,
Hoping it might be so.

I agree with Jean about this being a more sceptical than hopeful poem, with the final image which entails going in the gloom perhaps being a prophetic element.

One thing I find interesting with this poem is the word “hoping.” When you look at a lot of Hardy’s poetry, hope or hoping are not words or themes that you find. I find with a lot of his poems, the theme of irony dominates. Yet I don’t find irony here and it can be a breath of fresh air.