Tournament of Books discussion

Space to discuss the 2023 TOB contender “Manhunt” by Gretchen Felker-Martin.

Am I the only one of us who's read it so far? Are most people choosing not to?

I don't think you're the only reader, but, yes, many of us have thus far chosen to give it a pass. You are someone who could change my mind, though. :-)

Nope. I recommend that unless you're an obsessive completist (hangs head in shameful self-recognition) you follow your initial instincts, although not necessarily for the reasons you thought.

I tip my cap to the completists! Hold your head up high!
The first group of shortlist books I read didn’t wow me, but “Dinosaurs” did, and “An Island”, despair-filled though it was, was worth reading, so I am hoping this bodes well for my Second Half.

I read it and I'm not a completist. (I mean, I'd be happy to complete but it's not a realistic goal for me most years.) I don't know why only a completist would read it. sure it's horror, but lots of people read horror by choice.

there was one scene near the end that was too much for me, but overall, it was okay. parts of it read a bit like fanfic, which I think is increasingly common as this generation of authors has more experience in writing fanfic. overall, I thought the author had some interesting threads to pull and did so, more or less, successfully. I struggle to understand the broad avoidance, unless people just broadly can't handle horror?

jess wrote: "I read it and I'm not a completist. (I mean, I'd be happy to complete but it's not a realistic goal for me most years.) I don't know why only a completist would read it. sure it's horror, but lots ..."

Several reviews made much of the sexual violence in "Manhunt". That is what caused me to say, "Nope!" -- though I will admit that my favorite of the books I've read thus far this year ("A Constellation of Vital Phenomena") had some stomach-churning scenes in it.

I'm just not in the headspace for that right now.

Roxane Gay highly recommended the book, and I think it made Goodreads Choice, so you're not the only one, Jess! I like that it's own voices, and the author has every right to express rage, but I read the first two pages and it was already too much. Imaginative, yes, but the writing itself also felt pretty mediocre.

I'm going through hard times in my own life, fighting to stay alive, so trying to read a story filled with gratuitous violence against women would just bring me into an even darker place. (But I don't like horror in general.)

Elizabeth, I’m so sorry to hear this. I’m thinking of you and sending a wish for strength and light.

Risa wrote: "Elizabeth, I’m so sorry to hear this. I’m thinking of you and sending a wish for strength and light."

Thanks so much, Risa, it's been a hard, scary few months. So grateful for books to take me away! :)

jess wrote: "I read it and I'm not a completist. (I mean, I'd be happy to complete but it's not a realistic goal for me most years.) I don't know why only a completist would read it. sure it's horror, but lots ..."
Jess, I don't think anyone's saying (not even me) that only a completist would read it -- I'm saying that I only finished it because I am a completist. The book clearly wasn't for me and I clearly was not the target audience for it. Not because of its horror genre -- I read a certain amount of horror in a given year -- but because of what I found a truly sickening level of misandry and even misogyny, and because the constant and unremitting sex scenes, where sex was frequently and seemingly casually paired with violence, truly troubled me. I hadn't made the connection with fanfic, but of course that's one reason (among others) I've always shied away from fanfic.

Elizabeth -- is there anything I can do for you? You know I'm only a stone's throw away. Do not hesitate to contact me, and you can always find me at the library.

Ellen wrote: "Elizabeth -- is there anything I can do for you? You know I'm only a stone's throw away. Do not hesitate to contact me, and you can always find me at the library.
."

That's so kind of you, Ellen, thank you. Just living day to day right now, so lucky my husband works from home and my IL's live nearby, so we have people to help with my daughter if/when needed. Also so grateful for good medical insurance, and that I can afford grocery delivery, etc. when I don't have the energy to shop! So in the scheme of things I'm lucky, and trusting it'll turn out okay in the end.

Elizabeth wrote: "I'm going through hard times in my own life, fighting to stay alive, so trying to read a story filled with gratuitous violence against women would just bring me into an even darker place. (But I don't like horror in general).."

Elizabeth - thinking warms thoughts of you. From what I know of you through GR, you are a strong and resilient person, which is a great gift. I'm so glad your reading brain is fully engaged to help you through this.

Nadine in California wrote: "Elizabeth - thinking warms thoughts of you. From what I know of you through GR, you are a strong and resilient person, which is a great gift. I'm so glad your reading brain is fully engaged to help you through this."

Thanks so much, Nadine. That's what I keep reminding myself, that I'm stronger than my body. I read this quote the other day from Solenoid, which was so strangely helpful that I saved it on my screen.

"Then I understood that I wasn't a body, I had one, that I was its tenant and its prisoner. I didn't have worms or nits or constipation or hives, but it did, the one made of a soft and shifting material, the it where I lived. When I was suffering from an illness, the illness was not mine, but its, the cell walls where I was the prisoner..."

Something about that, being able to separate from and stand outside of what's going on, is so soothing in a way. So again, yay for books! :)

Elizabeth wrote: "Nadine in California wrote: "Elizabeth - thinking warms thoughts of you. From what I know of you through GR, you are a strong and resilient person, which is a great gift. I'm so glad your reading b..."

I'm wishing you all the strength and quickest health, Elizabeth!

Elizabeth, sending you loving thoughts and best wishes for all the right books to match your needs.

Thank you all so much. I'm sorry to have strayed so far from the purpose of this thread! ("Best wishes for all the right books to match your needs" is a perfect sentiment. I want to say this to everyone I know going through a hard time!)

Now...back to debating about this icky book. ;)

Elizabeth, sending lots of love and good wishes for a bright future with less hard things to get through! I hope you find some good escapism in the pages of any book that works for you. And, as you request, here is some conversation about Manhunt!

I don't read a ton of horror, (especially since I was pregnant and the hormones broke my brain), but I do sometimes read horror and I feel comfortable receiving storytelling through the vehicle of horror. And some horror books have a lot to say in an interesting way, and some horror books just do not. Tender is the Flesh, for example, was an absolute nightmare for me to finish, and I think I should have a therapist specifically for the feelings that book brought up. I can never forgive that book! I understood what the author was trying to do, but I didn't appreciate her message or how she chose to do it. And I have been a vegetarian/vegan for like, 30 years? So if I felt this way, no. this book needed to just not do what it did. No. No thank you.

Manhunt, on the other hand, was not that type of experience for me at all. The gore and violence is so big and gruesome; it was theatric, over the top, almost campy. There was no point where I physically shuddered from the chilly suspense of the TERFs coming around the corner or the testosterone zombies chasing me. It was just like.... a slasher film. a bloody romp. extreme body horror. heavy metal horror!

I don't believe in misandry at all; misandry is a term used by MRA to undermine feminism. I also didn't think it was misogynist, unless criticizing cis women for violence toward trans women is misogyny (which I disagree with, just fundamentally). There were interesting themes and conversations happening about community, power, safety, and desire, and how we trade, share and deny these things to each other(and ourselves!!!). Yes, definitely, there was some sex that was painful to read, sex that was violent and painful, but there was also a lot of tender, hot, funny, realistic sex. I can't think of many books that portray so many different kinds /scenarios of queer sex in one book. WHEW! That in itself is a feat. I read reviews that were like, "oh this is just a rape and murder book, read it if you love rape and murder," and that flattens and diminishes all the different things Manhunt is doing at the same time. I mean, this was not my favorite book of the year or anything, and I am almost mad that I feel like I have to draw all this out and defend it, but I want to be fair to what it accomplished.

And also, when we read Adam in the tournament in 2015 and people were like, unable to acknowledge or see the rapey-ness of that book -- that was more disturbing to me than Manhunt.

I thought this interview was great: https://www.autostraddle.com/gretchen...
I also enjoyed reading this: https://www.shondaland.com/inspire/bo...
If anyone else found interviews or essays about the book that deepened their understanding, I would love to read them as well.

I won't tell anyone to read Manhunt if they don't want to or weren't planning on it. If you don't want to, then don't. But I thought it was an interesting book with a lot to say. I suspect it will be easy to criticize in the tournament for the fan-fic-style moments, but I hope we will also be able to grapple with the interesting threads that Felker-Martin is tugging on. I think there is plenty of stuff there to spark an important conversation. I hope it gets a fair shake from Aminah Mae Safi, and I have no idea how it will hold up against the Violin Conspiracy!

So, Jess, I have to agree with you. I do think this novel did exceedingly well what it set out to do. And for the main characters to be almost exclusively trans folks is something rare. The set-up for the plot provided a realistic way for that to happen.

For anyone who is a reader of horror, violence, and graphic sexuality (both consensual and non-consensual), I think this is well-written, well-paced, and has richly drawn characters. I'm just not that reader.

Like you, I couldn't help but think of my response to reading Tender is the Flesh. I was just sitting here comparing my feelings about that book to my feelings about this one when I saw your comment. Both were brutal. I do think the plot of Manhunt held together better.

My abiding feeling after Manhunt is that no one gets out of this alive, and that's not typically where I hope to be in my mind when I close the back cover of my fiction. Also, I really felt like the entirety of "The Walking Dead" is what made up the much better condensed plot of Manhunt, just replacing the zombies with much faster-moving hordes of testosterone-laden monsters, and overlaying the whole gender-based apocalypse onto it.

I think this GR reviewer provides some really good perspectives on how to think about the value of this novel: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Phyllis wrote: "I think this GR reviewer provides some really good perspectives on how to think about the value of this novel: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...."

Interesting to read there's tenderness and humanity in the midst of all the visceral horror and violence, I can't even imagine how that could possibly be done, and it makes me (almost) want to take a look.

This is a (positive) review from a trans podcaster I follow. In the end, it's probably trans opinion that matters most.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDYJE...

I'm just starting this. I'm generally OK with a lot of violence and explicit content, and trans rights are human rights in my eyes.

But man, I'm starting the second chapter and the narrator is terminally online. Like, even more so than "No One Is Talking About This." She's running for her life and tries to remember a tweet she once read??!

It definitely has a vibe that I enjoy from the people I follow on Twitter (a dark sense of humor, silliness, even in the face of horrific shit) but it does feel... quite odd, coming from the shortlist of the TOB.

@Elizabeth, thanks for that link! i really appreciated that video.

Well, I finished this, but only because I’m a ToB completist. The extreme and unrelenting graphic violence created a distance (or maybe that was just my coping mechanism) that made it impossible to connect with the story or any of the characters. There were a handful of strong lines I’ll write down in my reading journal, but other than that it just really wasn’t for me. I also thought of Tender is the Flesh, which I hated and only read for ToB short list completion, so I’m wondering if I should drop that goal next year if it means reading books I know I won’t enjoy. Maybe I was hoping I’d be pleasantly surprised? Best I can give it is two stars for some of the clever commentary, and a bonus star since it’s not the author’s fault I read this book knowing I wasn’t the audience for it (and I support the idea of numerous trans characters in books).

Tender is the Flesh was the reading “experience” that convinced me it was ok not to be a completist. I’m at peace with that decision.

I finished it too. I actually didn't mind much of the violence, but never felt engaged with the story or characters - which seems curious as I write it, given the intensity of both. And I really wanted to be engaged with it all.

The book felt like a novelization of a movie (do they still do those?), and while there's nothing wrong with that, it's not what I'm looking for in the ToB.

It was the myriad vivid descriptions of unwashed genitals, more than the graphic violence, that did me in. A tough read that I found difficult to engage with too.

Henry Miller would be proud of this book, I think.

I do think that the action was well-done and well-paced. It kept me turning the pages. That being said, it's probably my least favorite of the books I've read so far.

I am curious if anyone who read this for TOB has also read Infect Your Friends and Loved One by Torrey Peters (of Detransition Baby fame). I was thinking about that book so much while I was reading Manhunt, and then read some interviews afterwards where the author said that she read the TP book right before she wrote Manhunt.

Elizabeth wrote: "Phyllis wrote: "I think this GR reviewer provides some really good perspectives on how to think about the value of this novel: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...."

Interesting to read there'..."

I'm trying this one for the 2nd time. The video clip it very helpful.
Thank You.

After reading all the comments, I upgraded by rating from two to three stars. This was a difficult book for me mainly because of the violence and gore. I’m not much of a horror fan but I have been dipping my toes into Native American horror. This was just a little too much for me. I also wasn’t impressed with the writing but it sure was action packed.

I appreciate that the author is trying to say something new and meaningful about gender. It’s fearless. I hated it but I love that it exists.

I second that, Lark. I feel exactly the same way about this book.

3⭐️ Eh.... I'm not the audience for this book, clearly. What I did love about it was the trans representation; so many characters in varying states of transition when Tday hits. I was invested enough in the characters to read to the end. Question: Robbie and Mariana just start walking at the end of the book? All the way to New Mexico? Are there not "men" and TERFs along the way? That seemed a strange and sort of careless ending for a post-apocalyptic story. Thoughts?

Dianah wrote: "Question: Robbie and Mariana just start walking at the end of the book? All the way to New Mexico? Are there not "men" and TERFs along the way? That seemed a strange and sort of careless ending for a post-apocalyptic story. Thoughts?"

That ending didn't bother me. Robbie survived for three years on his own - I think he has a good chance of making it. And Mariana is a fighter too. As Indy noted, she is easily underestimated by others, to their peril.

I am still processing it, but I think I really liked this book. It was gross and the sex scenes were way more than I ever want to know, but it was fearless. I don't think it was misandrist or misanthropic or anything like that. Every charachter had a bad moment. Sure, some were worse than others. But it was an abuse of power or it was going with the majority when one is too fearful to protest which can and does happen to anyone of any gender or ethnicity. When the sh** hits the fan, no ones know how well they will cope.

Ruthiella, yes, agreed. Thanks for your take on the ending -- I appreciate your thoughts on it!

This book was more violent than I prefer and also repetitive. I know some of you praised the pacing, but I felt this really dragged. Maybe because i never became invested in the story/characters? I can appreciate what the author is trying to do here, but I'm not the right reader for this one.

On a related note, I really liked Tender is the Flesh. Yes, it was a horrific read (I got headaches while reading it), but it really got me thinking, and it was the catalyst for many interesting book discussions with my friends and even my children (too young to read the book, but I told them a somewhat sanitized version).

I also very much liked Tender is the Flesh, which was far from beloved by this group, so I figured I would like Manhunt, too...in which case I would have started to suspect that I'm just not hooked up right! However, like several have said, I appreciate that the book exists but it wasn't for me. In the author's acknowledgements, they thank someone or other for helping them make the book as gross as possible. haha Mission accomplished.

Manhunt reminds me a lot of a Tarantino revenge fantasy; it had that same campy, over the top feel. Still, for me, it was messy and gross rather than thought-provoking and fun.

Oh, gosh, I'm listening to the audiobook and now I love this book. I love it. The sassy strangeness ... it's marvelous. Something clicked and now I get it.