Tournament of Books discussion

Space to discuss the 2023 TOB Contender Nightcrawling by Leila Mottley.

I read this when it was first nominated for the Booker...and for me although the story was powerful, I was impressed someone so young could write it, in the end it just felt really overwritten to me, to the point the story was lost in the language. I love beautiful writing, it's the most important part of a book to me, but this felt like she was trying too hard. And although the language was often lovely it was more often just distracting. She's definitely a writer to watch, though, I think she has so much potential, and I'm looking forward to seeing what she comes up with as she matures.

I finished it last night; I did an audiobook/print version combo. I was put off by the novel at first. I teach high school students, many of whom have life situations similar to Kiara's, and the prude in me just kept thinking, "Why did you and Marcus drop out of school? Your diploma could have helped so much!" But once I got over that, and let myself sink into the story, I found it incredibly moving. And I don't think it was too overwritten. Well, maybe a little, but not more than most other "literary fiction". Finally, I just came away so freakin' impressed that this young woman can write this well, and pace a story this well, at SUCH a young age. Truly, I'm blown away by her talent. Reading the author's note at the end made me more appreciative of the book as a whole too, as I feel like she 100% accomplished what she set out to do.

I agree, I felt it was overwritten and in need of some editing. I worked in Oakland so I always enjoy books where I can picture where things are happening.

Well, I’ll tell you, folks. I’ve completed four of this year’s shortlist. One I really liked (Sea of Tranquility). Three didn’t click with me. (An Island, Mouth to Mouth, and The Violin Conspiracy).

I started Nightcrawling, and I got through ten pages containing some sentences that seemed like word salad I had to try to parse the meaning of. I finally got to this sentence: “I am being spun around, her face too close, looking at me with all the pity of an owned tongue looking at a caged one.”

Ooof. I’m tired now. I’m out. I’ll be over here reading comments. I’ll hold back until you all come to a consensus as to which of this years books are worth my while.

Yep. An impressive accomplishment for a 17 year old author and ... it needed some editing help. I completely agree with you about the four you've read so far. Sea of Tranquility is my only two-thumbs-up novel from that group, and my only one of the whole shortlist so far.

However, I just started "Dinosaurs" and it is excellent. I am crossing fingers and toes that I still feel that way when I get to the end. Reading Millet right after "Nightcrawling" is unfair, I know, but the contrast effect is ... stark.

I think this book could have used more subtlety or scenes of inner reflection. It is very intense, and an odd combination of colloquial language and ornate descriptions. I agree it could have used more editing.

What I did not expect from this novel was to be so devastated by it. In the first few chapters, I thought Kiara was awfully hard. But the further I read, the more I understood her hardness -- if she let the tiniest emotion eke out, she was likely to descend into an unstoppable flood, and that wouldn't help her at all.

I thought it was very brave of a 17- to 19-year-old author to be willing to end this story without any happily-ever-after.

I feel like this novel accomplished exactly what its author set out to do, telling the truth of Kiara's life in all its hard-edged ugliness. If I were looking for a different type of prose, I think it would be only because Kiara and I each speak the languages of our own lives, and I've never had to live Kiara's life. There's little nuance or subtlety for Kiara, so the stark non-stop intensity of the writing seems to me an appropriate fit.

This is the fourth one I've finished so far and it is at the bottom of the list for me. I am glad I read this but I found the language awkward at times and I didn't feel as if any of the characters were fully fleshed out. It felt like a novel that was composed of scenes that didn't always flow together. But I did appreciate the realism of it even though that was also tough to get through. I rounded it up to 3 because of the age of the author.

Phew, just finished and I'm exhausted.

I listened to the audiobook, and I don't know if the author's note is at the end or the beginning, but I wished I'd read the author's note from the start since it gave the book a lot more context that made me respect the book more than I would otherwise. Not just that it's based on a potentially true story but her age when she wrote it.

But without that it was a lot for a book. I felt like the audiobook narrator spent more than 50% of the time using a pained, almost crying voice, which is probably very accurate for what the author was going for, but it's a lot to take in a novel.

I'm glad this story was told, and I want better things for all sex workers and women who feel like they have no other option. But as a novel it was a lot. I haven't read Manhunt yet, but right now I can't imagine reading more about violence towards women. Time to browse my lighter to-reads.

Bretnie wrote: "Phew, just finished and I'm exhausted.

I listened to the audiobook, and I don't know if the author's note is at the end or the beginning, but I wished I'd read the author's note from the start sin..."


I listened to the audiobooks/read Manhunt and Nightcrawling at the same time. You are correct; it was A LOT.

Heather wrote: "I listened to the audiobooks/read Manhunt and Nightcrawling at the same time."

Oof that's brave. On the Shortlist thread people talk about the sex and violence in Manhunt, but no one is calling out Nightcrawling for that. I assume that's because Manhunt is more explicit (haven't read it yet) but I think it's interesting.

Bretnie wrote: "...On the Shortlist thread people talk about the sex and violence in Manhunt, but no one is calling out Nightcrawling for that. I assume that's because Manhunt is more explicit (haven't read it yet) but I think it's interesting."

Bretnie, you raise a really good point. These were the final two that I read. I finished Nightcrawling on Jan 3, and then I finished Manhunt on Jan 6. Together they contained more violence and graphic sex than all of the other books combined (though many of the books had at least one rape or one murder -- would be interesting to make a list over in the shortlist discussion).

I went into Nightcrawling knowing it was about sex work. If anything, I think the scenes describing rape & violence were perhaps somewhat muted. Don't get me wrong -- they were powerful in conveying Kiara's helplessness & terror -- but the emphasis seemed more on her interior thoughts & feelings than on the actions occurring.

By contrast, Manhunt is fully intended to be in the horror genre. If all of the horror & violence were deleted from that novel, I think its graphic sex would not actually be difficult for most readers (or at least for me); so many of the sex scenes were loving & tender. But the violence was pretty overwhelming. Of course the use of sex as a tool of war is part of the whole thrust of the book.

I dunno, Seven Moons has a lot of violance, or is that to be expected with war?

Audra wrote: "I dunno, Seven Moons has a lot of violance, or is that to be expected with war?"

I was just thinking that, as I hit "send" on my previous post. Thank you.

Interesting thanks for that Phyllis! I hadn't actually realized that Manhunt was horror.

Nightcrawling has me thinking a lot about hard reads vs easy reads, real world struggles vs unrealistic fiction, when you challenge yourself on a read vs when you read to escape.

Bretnie wrote: "Interesting thanks for that Phyllis! I hadn't actually realized that Manhunt was horror.

Nightcrawling has me thinking a lot about hard reads vs easy reads, real world struggles vs unrealistic fi..."

I think about that a lot recently, how everything has its season for each of us. I'm thin-skinned, I've always had a hard time with violence in fiction (especially against children/animals, women and marginalized people who can't fight back), but there are times I can swallow it in order to learn. I'm such a mood reader, so I always read multiple books at once so I can choose what I need and can handle in the moment.

Oh no.

If one word is good, then ten must be better, and twenty is fantastic.

I'm not sure if I can finish this one.

Eric wrote: "... “I am being spun around, her face too close, looking at me with all the pity of an owned tongue looking at a caged one.” ..."


YES I would like to know what this means. What is an owned tongue? (my own, I guess?) What is a caged tongue? Is this all some kind of slang?

Elizabeth wrote: "Bretnie wrote: "Interesting thanks for that Phyllis! I hadn't actually realized that Manhunt was horror.

Nightcrawling has me thinking a lot about hard reads vs easy reads, real world struggles v..."

If you don't finish Nightcrawling (or even if you do), be sure to read the author's note at the end. Reading it gave me a new perspective on the book.

Rarely do I actually hate a book, but I hated this book. This was so overwritten and overwrought.

I didn't quit it. I got all the way to the end, even read the author's note. I think I hated it even more at that point.

I wonder if she wanted the story of her younger sister (and here there will be spoilers) ...


drowning in the pool to be foreshadowing, and the ending was Kiara and Trevor spontaneously choosing to drown rather than give in to the various institutions who were trying to corral them. And that would explain the CONSTANT mentions of the "shit pool" (really, it was excessive. I feel like this story took place over several months - if you throw dog shit in a pool, will it really still be there many months later? I doubt it.) were attempts at foreshadowing. But she wasn't brave enough (?) to come right out and make that clear.

Otherwise, it makes no sense to start this story with Dee's boyfriend - whom we never hear from again throwing shit in the pool. Dee herself added absolutely nothing to the story, other than to produce Trevor who was Kiara's young, innocent sidekick, meant to humanize her I guess.

I also wanted to know more about Kiara's relationship with Ale. In the beginning she says hugging & smelling Ale is the one place that feels like coming home (or something like that). I picked up on the romance vibes from the beginning, but it was confusing, I wasn't sure if I was supposed to be picking up on that or not. Were they dating? Did Kiara have a crush on Ale that was finally returned when they kiss? Was that a first kiss, or a return to romance for a couple that had been on the outs due to Ale's disapproval of Kiara's choice to prostitute herself? Had they been kissing all along and we just weren't reading about it?

This book was a teenager's sincere attempt to put herself in someone else's shoes and create something meaningful, and in that context it was great. If my teenager wrote a full-on novel like this, I'd be so proud. If this was her senior project in high school, then A+ to her.

I'm very sad for her that she did not get a better, stronger editor who was brave enough to step in there and make the edits this book needed.

** there will be spoilers in this, sorry **

I didn't know the author's age or that it was based on a true story before I read it. I listened to the audio book. I was confused / lost for part of the story, I believe probably because of some of the writing/editing issues that other people mentioned. Overall, I thought it was fine? I thought the ending was bold! What disappointment! I never expected a happy ending but I was am always still so sad about how terrible the world is.

I felt so viscerally sad when the social worker took trevor. It was painful. That scene made the book for me.

I thought the shit pool was a metaphor for something becoming dirty in public perception and never being able to recover from that perception.

The very very end confused me. Was Trevor really there? How did he get out of foster care? Who / Why would they let him come back? Was she just imagining he was there as she drowned herself?

jess wrote: ...The very very end confused me. Was Trevor really there? How did he get out of foster care? Who / Why would they let him come back? Was she just imagining he was there as she drowned herself?"
Wow, Jess, I never even considered this interpretation of the ending. I read it as reality: Trevor got himself on a bus (or walked) back to see Kiara; and they joyfully jumped right back into that shit pool (the metaphor for their lives). I'm sure no one "let him" but he's been mostly on his own for a long time and has the wherewithal to get himself around without permission. At least that's how it seemed to me.

jess wrote: "... The very very end confused me. Was Trevor really there? How did he get out of foster care? Who / Why would they let him come back? Was she just imagining he was there as she drowned herself? ..."




That's a brilliant ending. I love your interpretation.

Ok, there are spoilers in this post. Skip it if you want.

Thanks, Nadine. I have really been mulling this over.

I re-read the ending a few times and came away with a different perspective. I am still not totally convinced that Trevor was there physically, since she reiterates two or three times that she is not imagining / hallucinating him. It just felt like the lady doth protest too much. I no longer feel that she and Trevor were drowning in the pool. I think they jumped in the pool for the heck of it (taking back the joy of the pool from the "shit pool" perception?). Like, sometimes the happy ending is just surviving and finding joy where you can. The part where she looks at Ale and is thinking stuff about the future, the part about "losing a house and finding a home," feels too optimistic and future-oriented to be the thoughts of someone who is about to drown herself in a shit pool.

Thanks for your patience with my emotional journey on this ending. I might just be in a more optimistic frame of mind today, and I could feel differently tomorrow.

I'm strill trying to figure out where this pool in Oakland is.

jess wrote: "Ok, there are spoilers in this post. Skip it if you want.
"

I like this ending jess!

Audra, it’s the pool at the housing project where they live, isn’t it?

Phyllis wrote: "Audra, it’s the pool at the housing project where they live, isn’t it?"

Yes. I say that as I worked in Oakland, not far from where this in theory takes place, and have never heard of a pool at a housing project.

I guess it might more appropriately be referred to as subsidized apartments, so might not have been built as that originally. But I don’t know Oakland.

Audra wrote: "I'm strill trying to figure out where this pool in Oakland is."



So pools in low-rent apartment complexes in Oakland are not a thing?

I was totally picturing the apartment complex that Keith & Veronica Mars live in on the first season of Veronica Mars (which is set in southern California, not Oakland, of course).

That just reinforces my general impression that the author has no idea what she was really writing about. She did a great job as a teen trying to put herself in someone else's shoes, I guess. But it all felt contrived.

No I don't think they are. I could be wrong, but I have been to a lot of low rent housing facilities in the bay area over the last decade and have never seen a pool.

Kind of surprising that we got SO many content warnings about Manhunt, but nothing about this one... it feels worse to me, in that this feels far more like something that would actually happen.

Kyle wrote: "... this feels far more like something that would actually happen."

Based on a true story....

I just finished this. I listened to it as an audiobook, and I think that muted some of the impact of the overwrought prose (making it easier for me to get through the book without becoming too frustrated by it). The audio narration was excellent but also pretty dramatic. I did feel a bit emotionally drained when I finished. I think that impact was intended by the author, but it was a bit much at times. I’m somewhere between three and four stars for this one, but I’ll probably lean towards four stars. I loved the ambiguity around Kiara’s and Ale’s relationship, and I appreciate the author not smoothing everything over or leaving us with a happy ending (which wouldn’t feel authentic to the book).

Gwendolyn wrote: "I just finished this. I listened to it as an audiobook, and I think that muted some of the impact of the overwrought prose (making it easier for me to get through the book without becoming too frus..."

I thought the audiobook definitely helped with the prose. It made it sound closer to a spoken word poetry piece than just overwrought prose.

Convo with the author and Oprah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BxPI...