Tournament of Books discussion

Space to discuss the 2023 TOB contender The Passenger by Cormac McCarthy.

This book was a bit of a mess for me. I wonder how much clarity we'll get from the second book, but as a stand alone in this tournament, I don't expect this to go far. There's too much left unexplained, unanswered, unaddressed that I started to wonder what the point was of the book. He does a vague tour of American history (gold, oil, the Bomb, Kennedy), but I can't see the point of it--maybe that is the point? I'm 1/3 of the way into Stella Maris and the only mentions of Bobby relate to his coma. Is The Passenger all a coma-dream? I don't know that this works for the TOB since The Passenger alone seems incomplete.

I was intrigued by the physics, philosophy, and history - enjoyed those parts. But boy howdy were there a bunch of unanswered questions. I've read both The Passenger and Stella Maris, and even read together they just left me with questions for which I do not believe I will ever receive the answers.

I agree with you, Bob, that I don't expect this to go far in the tournament -- may even lose the first round unless the judge happens to be a McCarthy fan (or dislikes Mouth to Mouth as much as I did).

Ok, I'm about 100 pages in. I like the diving park, but what the hell is happening with the italisized part? I'm lost on that.

Audra wrote: "Ok, I'm about 100 pages in. I like the diving park, but what the hell is happening with the italisized part? I'm lost on that."

I'm only 50 pages or so in, but my sense of the italicized portion is that these are hallucinations by the sister, who is schizophrenic.

Risa wrote: "Audra wrote: "Ok, I'm about 100 pages in. I like the diving park, but what the hell is happening with the italisized part? I'm lost on that."

I'm only 50 pages or so in, but my sense of the italic..."

Ok, that makes sense, I got a little lost with starting with so many characters.

Audra wrote: "Risa wrote: "Audra wrote: "Ok, I'm about 100 pages in. I like the diving park, but what the hell is happening with the italisized part? I'm lost on that."

I'm only 50 pages or so in, but my sense ..."

This is a challenging book. I am now a bit past the 1/4 mark and I can already see that there is going to be a LOT to keep track of here.

I read this book with a lot of expectation of it being good, and then was just battered with the quantity of misogyny in this book. Yes, there's a perfect dead girl to worship, but every single other woman is, often literally, a whore. The sheer contempt for every woman (not to mention the ridicule heaped on women over 25 or not perfectly shaped) and that the women are all only sexual objects wore on me.

Discussed this with someone who has read a lot of McCarthy and he said that he never got the impression that the author ever considered women to exist really, let alone as full characters. Yes, I get that he has a formidable reputation and is very, very old, but I was unable to move past that and the complete lack of focus in this book. Luckily, for Mr. McCarthy, I'm certain he absolutely does not care what a woman thinks anyway.

Well said Alison. I find this issue with a lot of male writers, so I tend to not read them. He has a way with language, which of course does not make up for the misogyny.

I was dreading this book and, to my surprise, am finding it to be excellent. It is unlike anything I've read before, the prose is terrific, and the story is sustaining my interest even as I have no idea where it is going to end up.

McCarthy is frequently criticized for the way he writes women characters, and I get that criticism. And yet, Alicia is, to me, an intriguing character. I'm still only about halfway through, so I don't know whether we get more of the Debussy Fields character, but I liked her, too. And, the scene between Bobby and his grandmother was, for this reader, a thing of sorrowful beauty.

This is not to try to talk anyone out of their dislike of the book. It is only to say that I think there is more nuance here than I expected, and (thankfully!) thus far less of the violence I was dreading. So, I'm in the win column with this one, at least so far.

Risa, I agree that somehow, this is readable, that hard to describe quality. I finished and am baffled. Yet, I didn't mind reading it. I agree with Alison and Audra about the misogyny - full ON. And, I like Alicia, I liked Debussy Fields and I liked Bobby.

When I read the first pages of Stella Maris, I was blown away by the idea that, as Bob questions, "Is The Passenger all a coma-dream?" UH. WHAT?

I've also heard that Stella Maris is better. And doesn't require you read The Passenger first. Not that I can do that, now. But I think I will read Stella Maris. Someday.

Finished it last night. With everyone else, I'll acknowledge the misogyny. But it was a heck of a ride. Still sorting it out, but I'd give it the nod over the very good (except for the very, very end) =Mouth to Mouth=.

I'm not quite sure what I thought of the JFK stuff, though.

I'm now 6/8 on the left side of the bracket, so I can start to build up some hopes for the judges to dash.

I finished it last night, too. It was excellent and, IMO, far superior to the derivative “Mouth to Mouth”. More on this during the Tournament.

Risa, did the book cohere for you? Did it seem…complete?

Bob wrote: "Risa, did the book cohere for you? Did it seem…complete?"

Yes, and ... we know that there is a Part 2 (Stella Maris). I wish he hadn't done that and had, instead, put them together. (And I say that having not yet read Stella Maris).

But, the final scene in The Passenger is quite beautiful (and sad). I have more optimism about the fate of the world than McCarthy seems to (the fabulous John Sheddan character notwithstanding), but I can't deny that if one believes that justice is always going to be perverted by the powerful for their own ends, and that we are likelier to use math and science to hasten ourselves toward extinction than to save ourselves and the planet, one could certainly make a case for that. And he has.

Here is a beautiful essay by Will Cathcart, in LitHub, that conveys what so many people find amazing and uplifting about McCarthy's writing in The Passenger.
https://lithub.com/on-war-fatherhood-...

Phyllis wrote: "Here is a beautiful essay by Will Cathcart, in LitHub, that conveys what so many people find amazing and uplifting about McCarthy's writing in The Passenger.
https://lithub.com/on-war-fatherhood-an..."

I read that, too. What an incredible piece.

Now that I’ve finished Stella, I think I’m gonna hafta re-read Passenger. And when I do, I’ll have to dispense with the notion that the novel’s “plot” will be resolved as it is clearly a book of ideas more than anything else, and the plot only serves as a jumping off point for what the book is really about. The article was interesting, beautifully written and gave me a little insight into how I shoulda read the book in the first place. He hints at what I suggested earlier, that is Passenger as coma-dream, but also made a suggestion I found out of left field: the Kid Alicia sees as the manifestation of her and Bobby’s incestuous love child. If that was a “Chekhov’s Gun” planted early in the book, I missed it.

I don’t honestly believe there is a “right“ way to read these companion novels. I believe each of them stand on their own and leave a lot of unanswered questions regarding plot. It is certainly intriguing to read them together, but in my view that does not answer the plot questions. As Bob says, to me, these are both novels of ideas. I suspect there is more fodder to think through — more implications & connections — for those who have read all of McCarthy’s earlier novels, which I have not. Still, I really enjoyed both books, including the parts that went way over my head intellectually.

I'm still reading this and enjoying it even if it's a little surreal. I don't really mind that, it gives gaps for the read to fill in. I've read several of his other books and felt the same way. I remember seeing No Country for Old Men as a movie and thought there is no way this would have made sense to me if I hadn't read the book.

Audra wrote: "I'm still reading this and enjoying it even if it's a little surreal. I don't really mind that, it gives gaps for the read to fill in. I've read several of his other books and felt the same way. I ..."

Agreed, Audra. I haven't read NCfOM, nor seen the movie, and I probably won't (I hate watching/reading about violence), but I am very glad The Passenger made the shortlist, which is the only way I'd have read it. It was worth the effort.

I am excited to read this essay. I was left a little let down by the Passenger, I think all the brief teases of a caper made those portions feel very unfulfilling. And that maybe took away from the more essay-like conversations that were the bulk of the novel. I plan on rereading after Stella Maris too. I preferred Stella Maris and am deeply curious to revisit The Passenger after seeing how much it repaints that book. A definite irreality hangs over the duet.

I also found it was curious with Stella Maris to hear the Oppenheimer parts in conjunction with reading Trinity by Louisa Hall last year. Makes me want to read American Prometheus as I believe that is the source material for the upcoming movie to get a full scope of Oppenheimer-adjacent art.

I've never found a book that I disliked so easy to read. This book felt like rice cakes, you can eat a ton of them and never get full. rice cake after rice cake, it feels like a full meal, but really there's nothing there. I read entire chapters and within minutes couldn't recall anything about them, which wasn't a problem, because they rarely had anything to do with the chapters that followed.

2 stars didn't like it.

Probably still going to read Stella Maris though. I acknowledge this is not a logically decision on my part.

Also the physical books are gorgeous.

Tristan wrote: "I've never found a book that I disliked so easy to read. This book felt like rice cakes, you can eat a ton of them and never get full. rice cake after rice cake, it feels like a full meal, but real..."
You crack me up, Tristan. I'll bet you are the first reader ever to say "rice cake" in a review of a McCarthy book.

Stella Maris is, in my view, very different from The Passenger. Entirely different style structure something, though I wouldn't place a wager on whether you will feel sated after eating . . . er, reading it.

I listened to the audiobook and despite feeling bored, annoyed, confused or all three at times, I gave it four stars and considered giving it five because it left me feeling so sad. I’m going to listen to Stella Maris next and will look forward to the discussions of The Passenger in the tournament.

Just finished Stella Maris. I prefer it for sure, but that might just be because it was shorter.

Tristan wrote: "Just finished Stella Maris. I prefer it for sure, but that might just be because it was shorter."

I have it on hold though I really want to finish TOB books first. I'm kinda torn.

Having never read any Cormac McCarthy other than the road (which I hated) I wasn't drawn to this book but I wanted to say that No Country for Old Men is available for free to Audible subscribers. I started it. It's got something going for it that is very intriguing. It reminds me of those horrific, yet also somehow gorgeous, slow-motion shoot-ups in the HBO series Westworld.

Lark wrote: "Having never read any Cormac McCarthy other than the road (which I hated) I wasn't drawn to this book but I wanted to say that No Country for Old Men is available for free to Audible s..."

It's a great book, also a great movie.

I loved The Road but have given up on The Passenger for now. My first kinda DNF this tourney -- I might come back to it if I finish everything else, which seems unlikely.

Mindy wrote: "I loved The Road but have given up on The Passenger for now. My first kinda DNF this tourney -- I might come back to it if I finish everything else, which seems unlikely."

I have so many DNF this year, they are lying like road kill in every direction! 🤣

I loved it. And completely did not expect to.

Wow, this book wasn't what I expected. I'm left confused and amazed and completely moved. I think I loved it? Except I never felt comfortable reading about the incestuous love. But without that (if they were just star crossed lovers) it wouldn't have been as powerful of a book.

The writing felt like all the things I loved about No Country without the cattle slaughter gun. I don't think I mind that we're left without answers, even though I really really want to know! The plane! The people after him! His friends who keep dying!

I wish I could easily find just the Sheddan chapters and re-read them - their conversations were my absolute favorite, but I loved most of Western's conversations with his friends.

I think I was also swayed heavily by the audiobook - I loved the narrator quite a bit.

"Having read even a few dozen books in common is a force more binding than blood." (Sheddan)

Everything you said Bretnie.

I’ll be joining you in what may well be a very small band of commentariat members who loved The Passenger. I think I’m in the even smaller subgroup of those who loved it when they absolutely DID NOT expect to. It is a bet I would have lost, were I the betting type.

Bretnie wrote: ""Having read even a few dozen books in common is a force more binding than blood." (Sheddan) "

...makes all of us here family....

Oh hell. I wasn't even going to consider this (too scarred by Blood Meridian), but this plus a read of the sample pages is convincing me to at least try it.

A great in-depth discussion here, although he recommends you not watch the whole thing till you've read it. (I love Leaf by Leaf, his passion for everything he reads.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e3pR...

Risa wrote: "I’ll be joining you in what may well be a very small band of commentariat members who loved The Passenger. I think I’m in the even smaller subgroup of those who loved it when they absolutely DID NO..."

HARD SAME. I was like I so do not want to read this old white dude and it ended up as one of my faves. I will not be taking questions at this time.

Audra wrote: "Risa wrote: "I’ll be joining you in what may well be a very small band of commentariat members who loved The Passenger. I think I’m in the even smaller subgroup of those who loved it when they abso..."

LOLOLOLOL, Audra. I should NOT have been sipping a hot liquid when I read that comment!

I wasn't sure if he still had it (like, 16 years since his last book, and the dude is ANCIENT) but I really enjoyed it myself. I had to just stop caring about the actual plot and ride the vibes of all those lovely conversations.

Then again, I'm pretty pro-McCarthy, "All the Pretty Horses" is an utter masterpiece in my eyes...

I just got a wish granted over on Paperbackswap for the BOX SET OF BOTH BOOKS so I suppose now I must try it for the tournament's sake!

C wrote: "I just got a wish granted over on Paperbackswap for the BOX SET OF BOTH BOOKS so I suppose now I must try it for the tournament's sake!"

Ooh, nice!! I bet they look great together too.

I got a copy from the library this afternoon, as well as the audio from Libby. I'll try the audio alongside (although I'm thinking in the end I'd be better off slowing down the read. It does seem pretty readable, though, at least so far.)

C wrote: "I just got a wish granted over on Paperbackswap for the BOX SET OF BOTH BOOKS so I suppose now I must try it for the tournament's sake!"

woah nice! Once I'm done Babel, I'm going to read the 2nd one.

^^^same. I may even re-read The Passenger before reading Stella Maris.

This novel started out at 2 stars for me, then went up to 5 stars in the middle, and came back down to 2 stars at the end for a rough average of 3 stars overall. I don’t think I’ve had such a roller-coaster of a reading experience (not plotwise but, rather, my feeling about the book) in a long time. There is so much to admire and even love here—some truly memorable characters as well as stunning passages of writing. At the same time, the novel feels messy, uneven, and incomplete. I found the protagonist to be unique and interesting enough that I’m planning to read the (much shorter) companion novel Stella Maris. Perhaps that will help to tie up some of the loose ends?

Unfortunately, I really loved Mouth to Mouth, and now I’m worried it will get knocked out in the first round by The Passenger.

I'm about a third of the way through. Is it worth trying to untangle (going back and forth through certain themes) and make sense of The Kid's dialogue? Does it actually make sense on some level, or is most of it just gibberish?

I’ll have more to say about this when the Tournament begins, but for now: the non-linear structure is essential to what McCarthy is trying to do with this novel. The only thing to understand in the early going is that the novel opens with the discovery of the sister’s suicide and then jumps forward and backward to illuminate her character and that of her brother and others who are in their respective and mutual orbits. It gets easier for the reader to deal with as the novel
progresses (at least that was my experience).

The Kid, for me, was one of the best “characters”. I’ve thankfully never experienced schizophrenia, but this character gave me a feel for it. And, what The Kid is saying matters. It isn’t actually “gibberish”, although it seems that way at first.

This is all to say I personally think it’s worth hanging in there with The Passenger and getting your “sea legs” ( pun only partially intended). But, of course, as with all books, YMMV.

Risa wrote: "I’ll have more to say about this when the Tournament begins, but for now: the non-linear structure is essential to what McCarthy is trying to do with this novel. The only thing to understand in the..."

Thanks for this, I've been slowing down and looking things up, and convincing myself I'm getting smarter. I love the Kid too, Alicia's scenes are fascinating.

This is such a melancholy book, so much loneliness even though most of the scenes involve conversation, but also some of it is so much fun. And oh my gosh, some of his passages are simply gorgeous, I want to re-read them over and over.

I mean, that's the thing with McCarthy, it'll be just very dry and straightforward description for the longest time and then WHAM! A sentence that takes your breath away.

Well, that was the definition of sweeping for me. Most of the way through I wasn’t even sure how I felt about it, but two days after finishing I realized it had to be 5 stars. My review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...