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Culture and The Arts
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Men's rights
Men are treated wonderfully. There is no country in the world were there is a law against men or restricting there anatomy. Yes women have preferences of what they find attractive not unlike men who are very vocal about their preferences an expect much more of women then women do of men. And it is obviously not all women or even a majority of women who have this preference, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And men ignore their mental health because other men shame them for it so the negative way men are treated is still mens fault. ( obviously other factors such as race, being part of the lgbtq+ community or disabilities play in their treatment)
Mod
I do very much disagree with everything categorically here.
Un many western countries is a man abuses the woman, they are rightly prosecuted while if it is the other way around men often receive no justice and are often laughed off by the police. A good example is that a male teacher that sleeps with their student is rightly put on the sex offender registry. While the other way around there is often no action and sometimes the female teacher even retains her job. Regardless of the trauma of the male student.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tTUR...
There was a tinder study conducted that found that men find about 53% of all women they see attractive. Where women only find 28% of all men they see attractive. So women have higher standards for dating. And this is just based on looks alone, not even accounting for income. Most women only look for someone who makes more than them. So when a man and woman make the same the woman is not interested in the man. So increasingly a larger portion of women are only interested in the top 20% of men both in terms of looks and income. So a young man who is just starting his life is the main group of people who are ignored by women on dating apps.
As for the mental health stuff, I think the main problem is that no one is listening to the man. Men often do act tough but there are times that men break down and no one takes them seriously. There is a whole genre of films where the main character is a young man who is having a terrible life and repeatedly asks for help but no one takes him seriously so eventually the social isolation just makes them go crazy. This is also what lead to the rise of school shooters.
This is not even addressing the idea that society has about the replaceable nature of men. How men will die easily from jobs and that is just expected. How if a man has a divorce, it is quite easy for him to loose access to both of his kids while still paying child care. All of the teachers and parents telling their boys they can't ruff house or fight. But have to instead stay in a room and stay quiet.
I'm not sure you could argue men have ever had it worse at least when it comes in terms of culture in the west.
Austin wrote: "Abby wrote: "Men are treated wonderfully. There is no country in the world were there is a law against men or restricting there anatomy. Yes women have preferences of what they find attractive not ..."Preach!
Men are still at fault for all those unfair situations.
Mod
Well I wouldn't say men, more like society at large. As women perpetuate those problems just as much. It was feminist laws in the 60's that made it easy for men to loose their kids.
and it it is women's taste in men combined with them entering the work force that have led to the most amount of single men ever.
It is also women who continue to not listen to men who are vulnerable.
SJ wrote: "A lot of your argument seems to be centering on romance, and the fact that women aren’t attracted to a broader range of men. I suppose that’s understandable for you to be annoyed/angry about, but d..."YESS!!! I Completely agree! Preach it Girl!
Oh my gosh, YES SJ!!!! You summed it up PERFECTLY!!!
Also no injustices against men have anything to do with their rights. No one would take a man’s rights away ever. And for the emotions thing, men associate showing emotions with women and they think women are weak therefore showing emotions is weak. And this only happens because of the patriarchy which is made up by men. And the majority of women like it when men show emotions or are sensitive or vulnerable and most of the people making fun of men for having emotions is other men because feminine things are weak. And women are still affected by stigma around mental health and have a harder time getting a diagnosis because they present differently in women then men.
The attraction “issue”, women are more selective then men because most men just want to have sex and women actually look for someone they want to have a connection with. They also have to try and find someone who won’t assault them because dating is a lot more difficult for women. And In general women care more about characteristical things oppose to looks or money. Also you can’t change who you are attracted to.
The only reason men “have” to act strong is because of other men. Men don’t speak up because if and when they do they are shamed by other men and the women who have been pretty much forced or brainwashed into having these ideologies that men have and force on others. Men pretty much have full control over social standards and expectations for men and women. These beliefs are forced on almost every one since childhood with phrases such as man up, which is pretty much telling young people that men showing emotion is weak and wrong. Young people grow up hearing these things and seeing how you treat people because cause it goes both ways and from a young age gender rolls are forced open them already. Shaming people and treating people poorly is wrong and everyone should be growing and learning and treating everyone with human decency because it isn’t hard to do. Feminism and getting rid of the patriarchy isn’t just about women, it’s a fight for everyone’s rights and getting rid of the patriarchy would have benefits for men as well. This has nothing to do with mens rights. Just because men aren’t treated perfectly doesn’t have an affect on their rights. I have never heard of any laws against men even when I search it up no matter how I word it the only things that come up are” sexist laws against women you can’t believe still exist” so I’m incredibly curious if you have found laws against men. No one would take a man’s rights away this probably has a lot to do with the fact that they control who has rights and who doesn’t but…
Mod
Yes Abby and SJ!! Men are forced to hide their emotions, yes. So are women. It is “unmanly” by the patriarchy’s definition to be sad, to be empathetic, to really be anything but angry and closed off. It is unseemly for a woman to be angry or upset about anything, as they must be beacons of kindness, gentleness, and positivity. This is the patriarchy’s fault. It forces both groups into boxes of “acceptable” and “unacceptable” behavior, and anything you feel that doesn’t match up with these standards is branded as undesirable. Why do men have a higher suicide rate? Because they’re so used to stuffing and hiding what they feel and what they need. Men of the past have created this for the men and women of today, and now people are seeing just how horrible these rigid rules are. The patriarchy hurts EVERYONE.
Respectfully, (majority race) men’s rights is not a debate. Men, and white men in particular, have always had rights. It is the rights of women and of minorities that are still a debate, and unfortunately so.
Mod
I think Ideally women should lower their standards to fit how men are in reality. This on the surface can seem petty. But all of society is dictated through relationships. Generally a society where there is a large excess of men that see no opportunity of finding a spouse becomes more violent. This is gonna be a controversial opinion. The foundation in which a society is continued is around "Mating rituals." Some cultures have things more planned where marriages are diplomatic alliances. And love has nothing to do with it. The west starting in the Renaissance started to transition to a more love based marriage system. This obviously has worked for hundreds of years. But I see it starting to break down today. With Technology and gender studies being the main reasons.
As for your therapy argument. Not everyone can afford Therapy, nor does everyone seek out Therapy as there is the fear of expressing the wrong thoughts and being institionalized. And that is also assuming that the Therapist is even good at their job. As for the amount of women getting dismissed. I think the rates of suicide just dismiss this. Men die 3 to 4 times more often of suicide than women. Meaning for every story of a woman being dismissed and depressed. 3 or 4 men we don't see are just dead.
As the for the recess stuff. My public school ended up banning tag because it was seen as being too rough and that is not just one school doing it. This is a trend across the nation:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/co...
Your men and women dying argument doesn't make logical sense.
Men die more often in jobs but women die too so we shouldn't care if men die? This doesn't make sense. Lets use a specific example. Under water welding has a mortality rate of 15% annually while the field is dominated by men 92% to be precise. This means that almost all deaths relating to this essential job are men. There are no barriers to entry. All you need is to know how to weld and how to use scuba gear. As a woman tell me why we need more women in this field and specifically tell me why you are interested in this field.
Also no injustices against men have anything to do with their rights. No one would take a man’s rights away ever.
Except for the right of a man to see their kids after a divorce. This is a big suicide factor for fathers. I'll tell you a typical story. A boy and a girl fall in love in high school. They decide to sleep together and the girl gets pregnant. So the Man does the responsible thing and marries the woman. He works and provides for her and is actually able to make a decent living for their family. 6 years after the kids are born the wife decides that she would rather try her luck with other men. So she calls up her lawyer and is able to find out she can retain custody of all their kids. At the Divorce court the judge sides with the wife and the father is not allowed to visit the kids. He still loves his kids and to an extent he still loves his wife. But now his wife will take half of his income, the house and all of kids. While the Husband still works the same job he has been working for 10 years. The husband knows that if he refuses to pay alimony he will be jailed. Bad times hit the company and he is laid off. Then he looses what little he has left as he enters into bankruptcy. He cannot find a way out so he kills himself. The kids who never knew their father never knew he died. The mother receives one less check in the mail. The wife can marry and start the story all over again.
In the story I just gave. What amount of Therapy or being emotional would change the man from killing himself?
Mod
Divorce laws are some of the main offenders. They came about in the 60's and made it much easier or even preferred for women to retain sole custody of children.
Mod
Men are forced to hide their emotions, yes. So are women. It is “unmanly” by the patriarchy’s definition to be sad, to be empathetic, to really be anything but angry and closed o..."
I'm going to tell another story and this is a real thing that happens to men.
A man goes to a party with one of his best friends who happens to be a woman. Both of them get drunk/high out of their minds. They both in a moment of lust decide to sleep with each other. Both people have a good time. The next morning the woman wakes up and regrets it. She decides to go to the police and tells them she was raped. They find DNA evidence of the man on her body. The man goes to jail in a speedy court case. All the while his friends abandon him and his family are ashamed of him. After spending years behind bars the woman admits to her friend that the man did not actually rape her and she did consent at the time. The case is brought back to the court and new evidence in the form of witness testimonies and even from the woman herself helps the man get released. He officially and in reality is man who was wrongfully convicted. Though now that he is free, he has no family and friends. He can't get a job as everyone thinks he is a rapist. He can't look at himself in the mirror anymore so he just decides to end it all. In the obituary a small paragraph talks about how a convicted rapist killed himself earlier that week. His former friends never knew what happened to him and his family still thinks he is either in prison or rebuilding his life.
How would Therapy or being emotional give this man back his life?
Your first point: you can’t change who you are attracted to. Men only find certain people attractive as well but they find more people attractive because they base it solely on looks oppose to women who take personality into account while trying to find someone who won’t assault them or kill them or abuse them. With dating apps a lot of men go through and like most profiles while women actually look through the profiles and try and find people that they are actually interested in and want to form a connection with. Men control beauty standards for men and for women and they are much harsher towards women. No not everyone can afford therapy and that is a problem just like how people can’t afford health care because it is healthy care and health should be free. Men don’t go to or pursue therapy nor do they talk about their emotions because they are afraid of being shamed for it (there are people of other genders who feel this way as well) by majority men, and everyone else who have been taught by the toxic standards that men set that men doing feminine things is weak and emotions are weak. And men Jill them selves more often because women take how it will affect the people in their life into account when making the decision way more often then men.
Men and women dying at work. Men die more often because they are hired and promoted more often especially in male dominated fields. And of course dying at work is tragic but some fields come with risks. And as you said under water wielding is a male dominated fields so more men are going to die. Lots of people think it is a women’s job to have kids, pregnancy has a decently high death rate with the number one cause being homicide majority of these people are women. Women don’t apply as often for jobs in fields that are dangerous because there are less working women because women are taught that their job is to stay home, clean, cook and have / look after kids as well as women are taught by men that they are weak and can’t do these jobs and if they get these jobs they are shamed by men.
Yes it is unfair that the courts rule In favour of women when getting custody, but this is because more often than women men are the violent ones or the abusive ones. And men are the ones who create these laws, rules or injustices. People also often think that a child belongs with their mother which is obviously not always the case. But fighting for equal rights with feminism and get rid of the patriarchy it would benefit men greatly in these scenarios as well as in so many more. Feminism isn’t just a fight for women because by society not thinking women are weak and associating things like emotions to femininity men and women won’t be shamed for it. And back to your scenario therapy and not bottling up his emotions would help a lot. Learning who to cope would help so much even if it’s not going to therapy but finding someone who you trust to open up to or express your feelings is a lot better than bottling them up and killing youself.
For your point about the false accusations, that is why sex Ed and consent need to be a huge part of the education system because one of the first things they teach with consent when talking about sex is you can’t consent while under the influence don’t have sex under the influence because you might regret it. And while men can be falsely accused which happens extremely rarely I would rather believe a liar than a r@pist.
And yes expressing your emotions and feelings helps in any situation.
Mod
1. your attraction point is actually wrong. It is a problem of perception. The main problem with dating apps is that it artificially increases the supply. Back 100 years ago, you would meet someone and get to know them. Then marry them. They were normal and average looking. Now countless men and women use filters drugs and surgeries to artificially make them look better. And the few men who have a lot of money are who most of the women go for.
Traditionally women controlled the access to sex and men controlled the access to relationships. One of the main problems today is that women are taught they can sleep around with who ever they want. This is one of the things I think we did wrong with modern day feminism. When sex becomes free, Relationships become pointless. Traditionally it has been the women whose job it is to keep men from sex. This was to keep sex as something reserved for love and reproduction. Men had to form a relationship with the woman actually love her before he could sleep with her. Then the man would form the relationship with the woman and stay with her. Women want to be loved and men want something to love. Sex is not love, it is pleasure. Women that sleep around don't trust men and men that sleep around have trouble loving women.
2. Therapy. With respect I don't think you are actually listening to what I'm saying when it comes to men's suicide. These are not simple problems that be talked away. Missing you daughters graduation because of a messy divorce is not something that can be talked away. Being made homeless because of Alimony is not something you can talk away. These are real serous problems. I'm not saying that Therapy doesn't work, I'm just saying there is a root cause of why men are unhappy. That if we actually addressed the root causes we wouldn't be talking about the suicide epidemic.
3. job mortality rates. Again you are not making logical sense on this. Most homicide victims are male and there is not even a compatible comparison in the US alone males victims are 4 times higher than female victims. In the world there are 3 times more male homicide victims than female victims. You only hear about female victims more because people care about women more.
And I'm not sure what your point is with the men are hired and promoted more often in dangerous jobs. Are you saying that if we only hired more women in more high fatality jobs then we could equal out the gender mortality rates? The idea of those dangerous high paying jobs is that no one wants them. That is why they pay as well as a nurse.
If the comparison is between a female nurse and an under water welder. They get paid the same, but the mortality rate for nurses is .000057 compared to 15%. We are talking thousands of times more likely for an underwater welder to die over a nurse. Honestly Abby would you like to be an underwater welder?
Mod
In terms of the r@pe story. The idea is that even a false accusation can easily ruin someone's life. There are pushes to believe all victims by the feminist lobby and those pushes often send away innocent victims. We don't actually have data on r@pes and false accusations as the study in the fields are very very messy. But a good modern day phenomenon to look at is the "Me too" movement. It started with some good claims and took down some bad guys. But it quickly spiraled out of control until now you have the Jonny depth vs Amber herd court cases. I think the best way of going about such things is to have evidence based court cases, not belief based court cases.
Mod
I find your arguments about therapy to be really concerning. Do you really think that if you express the “wrong thoughts” in therapy you’re instantly “institutionalized”?? You always have a choice about whether or not to seek mental health treatment, and the only situation where you might possibly be placed in psychiatric care against your will is if you’re a danger to yourself or others. Unless you’re really struggling with active suicidal thoughts and tendencies, or are confessing a desire to murder or rape someone to your therapist, they’re not going to place you in psychiatric care. Also, “institutionalization” is actually not the first step in treating serious mental health issues, it’s usually short-term psych care at a hospital before any sort of long-term stay at a facility is considered. And then for your arguments of “how would therapy or being emotional fix this situation”, toxic masculinity is really evident in this train of thought. That you just have to soldier on, take it like a man, never pausing to consider the feelings and thoughts that go with a hard situation. Coping by ignoring and distracting yourself from the real issue. This is so not okay. This is why so many men die by suicide! Because they’re afraid that if they show feelings, they break. And men are expected to be strong all the time. Therapy does wonders. Not because it fixes the past, or because it heals all your emotional wounds, but because it helps you move forward—not ignorant of your self, but with knowledge of what you need emotionally.
Therapy helps you reframe and re-examine harmful or traumatic things in your life. It does not take these things away, nor is it meant to! Therapy is not a bandaid to slap over a wound and make it disappear, therapy is like retraining your body after an injury. It takes time for you to heal, but just like physical therapy for your body, psychiatric therapy helps repair your mind. Think about physical therapy for a moment. When you’re injured, a doctor might prescribe a round of PT to help you recover. And it’s not a fun process (speaking from experience)! It hurts at first. You get tired. You want to give up. But working to heal your body is worth the pain it takes. Eventually, an injury might hurt only sometimes. And then rarely. It’s not usually as if the injury never happened, but your body has repaired itself thanks to help from the therapist. The same is true of psychiatric therapy. It doesn’t make the trauma magically disappear, but it does make it hurt less. It does help you learn about what you need to be an emotionally healthy human. It does help you set boundaries. It does help you recognize unhealthy or dangerous behavior in others. It helps you to help other people, and it helps you to help yourself.
Mod
The instationalized stigma is real. Look to properly think you need to have the ability to offend. You need the ability to explore every avenue and sometimes that includes out loud. The answer is that yes, if someone really and I mean really trusts you. They will convey everything to you. That includes their deepest and darkest emotions that you know they will never act on. They would look to you to talk them out of it. The the stigma is from them showing their cards and being punished for it.
As an example, lets say a male is getting bullied. Like really bullied. They confide in their therapist that this abuse is giving them violent thoughts. So then they express these thoughts and want to be talked out of them. Only for the Therapist to instationalize them. That is the fear. These thoughts have not been addressed, the person was not listened to.
((side note, lets not use Toxic masculinity as that is a buzz word and most people don't know what it means/ aren't willing to address toxic femininity.))
I'm not saying they need to soldier on. I'm saying they have real problems that really need a solution to them. That no one is listening to men and that is why they are dying or commiting extreme acts.
These are the 4 things that motivate male suicide:
1. There is nobody that loves you.
2. There is nobody that needs you.
3. there is no hope that your life is changing.
4. you don't have the ability to communicate to someone that will listen to you.
I do think it comes down to trust at the end of the day. And after betrayal it can be hard to trust anyone. Genuinely most of male problems is that no one is willing to listen to them.
Mod
I understand therapy. Put it like this therapy heals right? But only when the damage is over. You can get therapy to walk again because you were stabbed in the back. But all of the therapy in the world won't solve the fact that the person keeps getting stabbed in the back. At some point you need to deal with the knife that keeps on getting thrust into their back. The real problem is the root cause of the suicides. The fact that the father can't see his kids. He can talk about his feelings all he wants but at the end of the day that doesn't bring his kids back into his arms.
I'm just saying listen to the poor dad, let him see his kids. Then you won't need therapy. That is all I'm saying.
1. People use filters, drugs or surgeries to make them look better because men tell them they don’t look good. And yeah inflation sucks if someone has money it sweetens the deal most people aren’t attracted to someone because of their money but being able to live is good. 2. Men used to control relationships because women Were property and didn’t have rights. They also did not control sex if their husband demanded or wanted sex and the wife didn’t want it he would force himself upon her. Women have never Been in control of sex or historically marriage and marriages being out of love is a pretty new thing. I see you are only talking about women having sex is shameful and ruining the point of relationships but when most people think this they think it’s fine or awesome that men “sleep around” which is the sexist thing that feminism fights. Men can’t tell women what to do with their bodies. Sex is the only or even main point of a relationship. Sex and relationships are two very different things if you don’t want to have sex with people because you think it ruins relationships don’t have sex but you can’t shame people for doing what they want with their bodies when it’s not hurting anyone.
3. If you talk to someone about your problems and express your emotions no it won’t make the root cause go away but it will make them feel better and help with the suicide situation. And yes we should be supporting feminism and talking about the root cause which is men.
4. I didn’t say that men are hired and promoted more just in dangerous jobs but in general. Nurses work crazy hours to save people live and have crazy amounts of loans they need to pay off. I don’t know about you but I want the people I trust my life and health with to be payed well and enjoying their job. No I wouldn’t want to be a welder under or above water because I have no interest in welding in general and underwater because I have a fear of drowning.
5. Feminism is fighting for any and all victims not just women. I don’t know a single women who would shame a male victim.
6. Feminism isn’t fighting against men it is a fight for everybody. Some misled people think other wise. And there is also different types of feminism that aren’t true feminism because it doesn’t fight for all people.
7. I don’t think using toxic masculinity is a buzz word or wrong violence, dominance, emotional illiteracy, sexual entitlement, and hostility to femininity are parts of toxic masculinity and shaming men for things associated with women and femininity seems to fit in this. Toxic femininity is also wrong and should be gotten rid which is also a part of feminism.
8. You forgot mental health when listing the reasons for male suicide. And men not having anyone to listen to is mens fault.
Mod
I just need to get this out here before anything more gets posted.
8. No Abby I did not "forget" mental health, what I did was break down the idea of mental health into specifically what men are feeling that motivates them to suicide. The 4 I gave are what can be placed under mental health.
3. you are Quite literally calling Therapy a band aid and refuse to listen to the root cause of why they feel that way. I'm not gonna lie I used to think some of the MGTOW stuff was cynical. But you people are genuinely not interested in listening to men.
Mod
1. Money consistently makes the top 10 for things women look for in men. When polled most women would marry a rich but older man over a younger but homeless man.
2. you are acting like the idea of R@pe is a modern day invention. Our oldest laws we know of Hammerabi's laws speaks about the man being put to death for ravaging a virgin or betroved.
we seem to come to two different conclusions to men sleeping around. Mine being don't let the men sleep around and your being let the women sleep around just as much as the men. And the idea is that men and women are being misled when they are told they can sleep around. It is very much hurting people, it is even hurting those who are sleeping around. As I said, it is hurting people's ability to form permanent relationships.
4. So you don't want to be an underwater welder. Why would you make other women do that job then?
5-6. this is gonna get opinionated real quick so I'm not gonna touch those. Just know not every feminist agrees with you.
7. Define toxic femininity.
I’m going to answer your questions and then I’m gonna be out of this debate for a while, gotta conserve my emotional energy for the holidays 🙃 Yes, money is a consideration for many people, not only limited to women. You’re communicating that women are fickle and shallow for having standards and seeking economic stability in a relationship by your statement. No, no one should marry for money. But honestly, would YOU marry a homeless individual with no financial stability or prospects? Like it or not, there are many considerations when it comes to marriage or a long-term relationship, and ignoring money, for all its nobility on paper, is just stupid in practice.
I agree with you in this case that yes, sleeping around is wrong according to my faith and moral standards. But I wouldn’t expect others to follow my same moral code when it comes to personal issues such as dating, sex, and marriage. So I think this is just you and Abby disagreeing on a matter of principle.
I may be misunderstanding your rebuttal to Abby’s question, but to me it seems like what you’re communicating is that women don’t get to pick their jobs anymore because they must suffer and endure exactly the same pain or amount of work as a man?? What?? This is not the meaning of equality. We’re looking to remove the burdens of both sexes, not drag others down with us so we can be “fair”.
1. Women like men with money because they are taught to and expected to stay home and have children so if they can’t get money they kind of need someone with money. And again money is the only thing it helps. And age really has nothing to do with is. 2. I have read Hammurabi’s laws and there was only one law against r@pe and it was in an incredibly specific case. Men have been able to assault women for a long time and in some places they still are legally and In places where it isn’t legal justice is rarely served. When women were property and their husbands owned them they were allowed to force themselves on their wives whenever they wanted and it was seen as disrespectful for women to not want to sleep with their husbands.
3. I have not called therapy a bandaid but a tool. Why they feel that way is because of other men. The way men treat people and the way women treat people are both mens fault.
4. I don’t care what job people have not one bit and I have never said that I do. What does me not wanting to do that job have to do with anyone doing that job? And what does it have to do with women? Everyone should be able to choose a job they want if women want to do it they can do it, if men want to do they can do it if a non binary person want to do it they can do it. Just because I don’t want a job doesn’t affect what other women chose to do. And this applies for any job I don’t want to be a doctor but I would never discourage someone from doing it.
5. True feminism is about equality for everyone but there are other types of feminism such as white feminism that are not.
7. We hear a considerable amount about toxic masculinity but far less about toxic femininity, and some doubt that it exists. First, a definition: Women expressing stereotypically “feminine” traits such as “passivity, empathy, sensuality, patience, tenderness, and receptivity … [which] result in individuals ignoring their mental or physical needs to sustain those around them … Toxic femininity is when one works to the benefit of others but to the detriment of themselves. It can appear as forms of depression, exhaustion, or wildly illogical solutions to complex problems.” (By “to the benefit of others,” writers nearly always mean “to the benefit of men.”)
This website explains it quite well: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/...
Why are statements 5 & 6 polarizing in your opinion?!? All feminists I know, including myself, believe that a) men can be victims too, and that b) feminism is a fight for the equality of everybody, including men, that is accomplished by raising up and empowering women to the same level as men, and then removing systemic barriers to equality like the patriarchy to ensure equality moving forward.
Not sleeping with people because of your religious views or any other reasons or beliefs is perfectly fine and no one should judge what you do with your body, but if you want people to respect you on that decision you have to respect them and what they choose to do with their body. Because respect goes both ways and if you don’t receive respect you probably aren’t going to give respect.
Mod
Yes, money is a consideration for many people, not o..."
I'm not saying women are fickle. I'm just saying it is something women consider where that is not the case for most guys. The answer is yes I would happily marry a woman if I loved her but she was in hard financial times.
Obviously my opinion on sleeping around comes from my faith. But I think there is an objective fact. We can look at our society today and people are less happy today than they were 100 years ago. Dating is more complicated, less families are being made, less kids are being born. More and more men see a hopeless future when it comes to dating.
My point to the underwater welding thing is that women by choice don't want to enter that field and it would be wrong of us to stuff women there. I don't think we should stuff people anywhere I think we should let people go where they naturally want to go. If that turns into gendered gaps, then that is fine because people chose it on their own.
Mod
1. Age is a factor because the older the man the more money he likely has accrued. So because of this Women are often more than willing to date or marry a man twice her age if she knows she will be well off. Most men would not do that, and there is a biological component to that. But again my original argument is that women lower their finical expectations to become reasonable again.
2. again I think you have a very skewed idea of history. No Ancient Babylon is not as perfect as today. But the concept of R@pe did exist.
3. You can't seriously believe that in one breath then in the other turn around and say feminist fight for the equality of everyone. Yeah no, when a WIFE divorces her husband and a WOMAN lawyer takes him to Court and a WOMAN Judge rules against him. So he can't see his daughters. Acting on FEMIST laws. I don't think any man is involved there at all that is not part of a grand conspiracy. This is madness.
5. LOL white feminism? You sound like a racist.
7??? yeah no that is not toxic femininity, here are some examples:
Creating drama out of nothing
· Manipulating and controlling those around them with falsities or guilt
· Being excessively needy
· Being extremely critical of other people
· Blaming everything on bad luck or other factors that allow them to dismiss responsibility
· Being envious or jealous of those around them
· Using other people against their wills
https://hackspirit.com/toxic-femininity/
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I don't know White feminism sounds like it is up to no good. All joking a side there are actually groups of feminists that do genuinely hate men. It is where the idea of toxic masculinity comes from. There are different waves of feminists. The farther back you go, the more it is about equality. But the more recent you get the more it is just man hating.
2. R@pe has always existed. And today is nowhere near perfect in the justice for victims the punishment should be a lot worse. 3. You aren’t really making any sense on this point. The lawyer and judge being women has absolutely nothing to do with it because male lawyers and judges do the same. And there isn’t any conspiracy. Getting rid of the patriarchy will help with this issue.
5. Who am I sounding racist towards? And how? I don’t support white feminism I advocate and believe in for everyone’s equality.
7. It won’t let me click on the link, but is it just when women do these things it’s considered toxic femininity? And I don’t see how any of these are related to femininity.
8. More people hate men now. They don’t They are just more vocal and open because they are tired of fighting for their equal and rights. And because men are still assaulting them. True feminism is wanting equal for everyone.
A few points: 1. White feminism excludes the voices of minority women and women of color. It focuses on the struggles of white women, and not on equality for all women regardless of race or life experiences (like good, actual feminism does). White feminism IS racist. Recognizing it as such is not. I recommend some research on the history and movements of feminism, the concept of White feminism/exclusionary feminism has been around for a while 😅
2. If a feminist hates men then they are not a feminist. They are a misandrist. Period. Some women may be angry at men, or more broadly at the system of patriarchy, but no true feminist hates men and wishes to be above them. Again, feminism = equality, not a pushing down of one gender and the raising up of another.
3. Toxic masculinity is a concept created by feminists, but it’s not a man-hating concept. The dictionary defines toxic masculinity as follows:
Toxic masculinity is a set of certain male behaviors associated with harm to society and men themselves.
Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due in part to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. The violent socialization of boys often normalizes violence, such as in the saying
"boys will be boys" about bullying and aggression.
And I agree with Abby, none of the “toxic femininity” traits you gave have anything to do with femininity at all. Anyone can act in that way, they’re not behaviors that are often specific to women. In contrast, toxic masculinity is an easily identifiable set of learned and socialized behaviors around agression, power, and acceptable displays of emotion.
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3. You aren’t really making any sense on this point. The lawyer and ..."
3. I'm not sure what part of my response didn't make sense there is no men included in that scenario at all. Patriarchy doesn't exist in that room. I'll even say the only man in that room is the father. Again you are not listening. The laws that took away his kids were Feminist laws. In terms of this divorce there is no patriarchy.
5. lol I forgot about you being racist towards white people. Again we disagree but I'm never gonna see it anything other than racist.
6. no in the same way Everyone has masculine and feminine traits. There are good sides of femininity which you listed and I gave a list of the toxic sides. So men can do these as well but they are seen most often with women.
7. True feminism is whatever you want it to mean. So I'm not gonna argue about what is and isn't true feminism. It was true feminism that took away kids from fathers that is all I know.
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1. White feminism excludes the voices of minority women and women of color. It focuses on the struggles of white women, and not on equality for all women regardless of race or life ..."
1. lol wat so white women aren't feminists? So we have broken feminism into feminists for equality and feminists not for equality. So that means feminism does not equal equality.
2. this point conflicts with one. So some feminists hate other women and other feminists hate men. But they all still stand for equality? Yeah no, this doesn't make any logical sense.
3. What are the positive traits of masculinity if this term is not man hating?
Yes Annika! I completely agree and you word your point much better than I do. 3. The patriarchy exist even when men aren’t in the room. There is internalized patriarchy. And men make the same choice in those positions.
5. Saying White feminism isn’t racist but white feminism is. It’s not against white people it fights for equality but only for white straight women ignoring minorities. White women can be true feminists and want equality for everyone.
6. Everyone has masculinity and femininity those things you listed have nothing to do with femininity or masculinity and can be both masculine and feminine traits.
7. Feminism doesn’t take dads away from kids but the men and the patriarchy does. True feminism fights for men getting to have at least a fair hearing for custody. Because yes some men deserve custody and some absolutely do not.
Exactly!! White feminism is BY DEFINITION RACIST. It excludes people of color. True feminism includes everyone and fights for everyone’s rights, including the rights of men. We’re not being racist towards anyone…you’re really missing the point.
Thanks Abby :) I try!! You’re explaining stuff really well too, good job!!!
Also Austin, there’s something I’m noticing. You continue to bring up the divorce/custody situation, and the “fact” that it’s so hard for men nowadays to date anyone…these are very feelings-based points, while the points Abby and I are making are rooted in research and our educated opinions about things. I’d really like to see some statistics on the whole custody thing if you wouldn’t mind. Just a friendly reminder that feelings obscure facts in a debate, it’s important to keep the two separate :)
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3. The patriarchy exist even when men aren’t in the room. There is internalized patriarchy. And men make the same cho..."
1. So it is men's faults that they were doing what feminist laws advised. yeah no that doesn't make any sense. At this point we are treating Feminism like God and Patriarchy as the Devil. You have lost me. I'm not sure where you can get off calling laws lobbied for feminists Patriarchy, then say it is feminism when Men get a chance at all to see their kids. The mental gymnastics is just nuts.
2. lets play a game.
Saying Black feminism isn’t racist but Black feminism is. It’s not against Black people it fights for equality but only for Black Gay zeers ignoring others. Black women can be true feminists and want equality for everyone.
6. They are considered Feminine traits as they are more commonly seen from women and are associated with men Acting like women if a man shows said traits. Thus Toxic femininity. Think Toxic masculinity but for women.
7. This is nonsensical statement. Contradicted by 5.
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I mean I did provide videos and links to first hand accounts of fathers dealing with suicide. And I wouldn't exactly call your positions educated more on the verge on conspiracy theory.
You literally need to say true feminists every other sentence while talking about white feminists. Like I'm trying to be respectful while this stuff makes no sense.
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(US Census Bureau)
Out of every five custodial parents in the United States, about four were mothers, according to the US Census Bureau child custody statistics from 2018. It’s a slight decline compared to 2014, when 82.5% (five out of every six) of custodial parents were mothers.
Therefore, it’s slowly becoming more likely for custodial parents to be fathers, especially compared to a few decades ago.
Women getting custody more often then men is because of men and the patriarchy it has nothing to do with feminism conspiracies. Men are their own worst enemies.
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Abby lets take a step back, like work with me here. This Genuinely makes no sense.
ug lets do this the other way around, maybe you can see where this makes no sense.
"Women were the reason that women did not have rights in ancient societies. Women were their own worst enemies. It has nothing to do with a Patriarchy conspiracy."
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This video does an amazing job of step by step what is wrong with the US family court system.
Family Court has no presumption of innocents. So it is easy to make a false accusation of abuse and it is hard for the father to fight that back.
not all fathers can afford a lawyer and the accused (father) needs to prove that he is innocent of abuse
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