On the Southern Literary Trail discussion

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Santa delivered! The Passenger was under my tree this morning. I hope he was equally generous with all of you.

I got a boxed set for Christmas, so I'm set to go.

I have it, but I haven't finished SUTTREE yet. I'm torn... should I get through SUTTREE first, or skip over to THE PASSENGER?

Cheryl Carroll wrote: "I have it, but I haven't finished SUTTREE yet. I'm torn... should I get through SUTTREE first, or skip over to THE PASSENGER?"

You still have a few days before we officially start reading The Passenger. I'm currently trying to barrel through another book before the year ends.

I'm going to give it a try. I'm about 2 weeks out on my hold. Plus my Paperwhite bit the dust and new one not expected until the 31st. 😢 I'm acclimating to some of my hard copies on my saved for a rainy day shelf.

Diane wrote: "I got a boxed set for Christmas, so I'm set to go."

So did I, Diane! I was so happy since the wait at my library is extremely long (and I put it on hold before it was nominated here!).

I'm not going to start on this until the the last half or last quarter of the month. I have so many reads to get to this month including Demon Copperhead. I'll probably just read this and then Stella Maris soon after.

Okay, I've made my decision. I'm going to shelve SUTTREE and dedicate myself to the Jan. and Feb. CMC reads. The SLT admins hold McCarthy in such high regard, this is such a great chance to learn from (with?) the group, and I want to be a "live" part of the discussions!

I had to do my research thing bc CMC is new to me. 😄 Have any of you heard of his 2017 essay "The Kekule Problem: Where did language come from"?

August Kekule was a German chemist, with the important aspects of his career beginning in the 1850s. It looks like the method to describe the chemical structure of benzene came to him in a dream-

Dozing before the fireplace in the winter of 1861-62, the German chemist is pictured as having a vision of a snake biting its own tail. This dream inspired him to propose a ring structure for benzene in papers published in 1865 and 1866.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/cen-....

Academics apparently debate whether Kekule really had this dream. Regardless, CMC uses Kekule's Dream as the analogy to his argument on language. (Not sure if it's an "analogy" or not, but you get where I'm going.) From McCarthy's opening paragraph -

He was trying to arrive at the configuration of the benzene molecule and not making much progress when he fell asleep in front of the fire and had his famous dream of a snake coiled in a hoop with its tail in its mouth—the ouroboros of mythology—and woke exclaiming to himself: “It’s a ring. The molecule is in the form of a ring.” Well. The problem of course—not Kekulé’s but ours—is that since the unconscious understands language perfectly well or it would not understand the problem in the first place, why doesnt it simply answer Kekulé’s question with something like: “Kekulé, it’s a bloody ring.” To which our scientist might respond: “Okay. Got it. Thanks.”
'Why the snake? That is, why is the unconscious so loathe to speak to us? Why the images, metaphors, pictures? Why the dreams, for that matter....

https://nautil.us/the-kekul-problem-2...

The Wikipedia article for CMC is pretty detailed. I especially like this passage regarding his work ethic and writing processes:

McCarthy has dedicated himself to writing full time, choosing not to work other jobs to support his career. "I always knew that I didn't want to work", McCarthy has said. "You have to be dedicated, but it was my number-one priority."[81] Early in his career, his decision not to work sometimes subjected him and his family to poverty.[54]

Nevertheless, according to scholar Steve Davis, McCarthy has an "incredible work ethic".[82] He prefers to work on several projects simultaneously and said, for instance, that he had four drafts in progress in the mid-2000s and for several years devoted about two hours every day to each project.[80] He is known to conduct exhaustive research on the historical settings and regional environments found in his fiction.[83] He continually edits his own writing, sometimes revising a book over the course of years or decades before deeming it fit for publication.[82] While his research and revision are meticulous, he does not outline his plots and instead views writing as a "subconscious process" which should be given space for spontaneous inspiration.[84]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cormac_...

I am getting Black Mountain Breakdown thru my library Inter-Library Loan system, and it is in transit. They usually have a short loan time, so I'll get that one read before starting The Passenger. It is shorter and Lee Smith can be read at a quicker pace than this one. Thank goodness I already read Demon Copperhead!

I have finished this book and just started Stella Maris - all I can say is this is the strangest Cormac McCarthy book I have ever read. By the end I was aware of what I was reading, but it throws you for a loop in the beginning.

I hope to go right into Black Mountain Breakdown when I finish up Wing Walkers. I also have read Demon Copperhead.

This one and a another book are my only commitments for the new year. I won’t start until January. I want to read the demon copperhead as well.

I was able to find this available at the library and have finished it, albeit with glazed eyes during parts. It will be interesting to read you all’s explanations, thoughts, etc. Interesting article you have provided, Cheryl. CMC is much too smart for me, but the storyline kept me going.

I’m really interested to see how the 2 books work as one collective body. I hope to start Wednesday. Has anyone listened while reading to get a better grasp of the book? I would never solely do a Cormac by audio but wonder if it would help. I’ve done Faulkner that way for harder reads. .

@Lexy and Laura- I've been using my typical SoC technique of skim the passage, get the jist, and then go back to reread. With this novel there is so much technical information regarding ships and scuba diving... using my Kindle, I mark those things in Pink, and go back to look them up after I've read the chapter.

I've not read INFINITE JEST yet, but I was told that the author was such a genius that he provided his own annotations / glossary. Because so much of the narrative involved things that are way beyond common knowledge. For THE PASSENGER, I'm keeping a list of what I'm having to look up. Y'all dm me if you need links to any vids or articles!

Thanks Cheryl, will do. I’m looking forward to the read.

I'm going to read this the same way I read Faulkner.....just plow through the prose and hope it all comes together at some point. Good to have you as a research backup Cheryl.

Diane that is usually my technique too, but I am not sure it worked for this book. I can say on parts it did, but on other parts I was still partially stumped and questioning things until I listened to a podcast on the book. It confirmed my thoughts and cleared up some questions I had. I think reading Stella Maris (the companion book #2) will also help.

Cormac books are usually great discussions. No country for old men was one of my favorite reads done with a group.

Laura wrote: "Cormac books are usually great discussions. No country for old men was one of my favorite reads done with a group."

A discussion of Blood Meridian, or the Evening Redness in the West I participated in was very wild and ended up with an invitation to join this group.

Cheryl Carroll wrote: "Okay, I've made my decision. I'm going to shelve SUTTREE and dedicate myself to the Jan. and Feb. CMC reads. The SLT admins hold McCarthy in such high regard, this is such a great chance to learn f..."

Just a heads up on on the Kekule essay. There is material in it that can perhaps act as a Stella Maris spoiler for purists. I see people are reading the essay before the novels or in between the two. I saved it for after which made Stella Maris a more interesting read for me.

I’ve read blood meridian and I’m sure I missed a lot. I want to do a reread with a group but I’ll have to space it out from these 2 reads. Pretty rough material with that one.

I have the book on my Kindle. Should be starting in the next few days. You guys are not getting me excited to read this (my first McCarthy) 😅
If I don't like it I won't tackle Stella Maris. Books that make me work hard need to be an enjoyable reading experience..

Cathrine
You worry me a little with this being your first. Just stick with us!!! We will get through it together.

Just read in the link that Cheryl provided that CMC sites Moby Dick as his favorite novel. I find this enlightening as in John Irving’s (fav author) latest book “The Last Chairlift”, the main characters grandmother reads Moby Dick aloud to him as a small child. I’ve probably attempted MD twice a few years ago, like 50, this gives me a nudge in that direction.

Cathrine ☯️ wrote: "I have the book on my Kindle. Should be starting in the next few days. You guys are not getting me excited to read this (my first McCarthy) 😅
If I don't like it I won't tackle Stella Maris. Books t..."

Cathrine just expect strange and maybe not fully understanding it - but Stella Maris does help to clear up some questions.

I've been in this group for around 7 or 8 years and can honestly say that I'll share my first initial impression, which means I'm reading this for the first time with all of you. I haven't read McCarthy in almost 7 years and before that 9 years ago. I was a different type of reader back then, meaning I devoted more time to the written word and took my time and patience with things. I don't have the patience as much as I used to with books, but coming across this one, I find it to be quirky initially as I've only read 49 pages of it. It starts off dreamy and random and full of vocabulary that a regular layperson wouldn't ever know, so it is reminding me of his older works, but I do find something a little more ordinary in the writing style from time to time...he goes back and forth in his dialogue of characters saying things that you'd never hear from people trying to have a discussion to things that are clear and to the point. I will continue as I respect McCarthy and feel that this, along with Stella Maris will be his last published works and will eventually note my final impressions.

Can someone comment on his bi-polar use, or not, of punctuation marks?
What's with lines like
"I dont think they'd seen that before."

I was happy to be reading this on Kindle for quick word definitions but half of them display "no results found."

Cathrine
All you gotta do is google these questions bc they are very common questions when reading Cormac. And I’m not being a smart A. Cormac produces a lot of whys😂😂🤪 I just try to use context clues or what did Diane say, “plow through” and it all gets figured eventually.

I’m starting tomorrow. Hang in there.

You know I hate books without quotation marks Cathrine, however this is McCarthy! Stella Maris is also without them. I just plowed thru -as Diane says - and with all the confusing back and forth in this book I almost forgot that there were no quotation marks. Try to resign yourself to just reading - don't try to figure too much out as you read. By the end you will have figured out more than you think, but you will still have questions - which hopefully will be answered either in conversations on the book or by reading Stella Maris - which is just a hair more straightforward it seems - but I have really just barely started that book.

You can't find a lot of his words in the dictionary because he makes them up, but they seem to fit somehow. The lack of quotation marks has never bothered me, but I know a lot of people complain about it.

Diane wrote: "You can't find a lot of his words in the dictionary because he makes them up, but they seem to fit somehow. The lack of quotation marks has never bothered me, but I know a lot of people complain ab..."

Saramago tended to do the same thing. McCarthy's tends to flow together well. Sometimes, you may ask yourself "Who's the one doing the talking?", but overall I don't know if it truly matters. Enjoying this one so far.

I don't mind no quotation marks, though this is the first time for me those have been absent along with other punctuation marks, just wondered why, if he finds those little marks all over the page distracting, he is not consistent. I find that distracting, and as Josh notes, at times I have to work harder in his conversations at "who's the one doing the talking?" I'm a bit annoyed as he is trying my patience, which I too no longer have in abundance.
Oh well, success, I made it through the first chapter and so far, I'm not in a state of confusion.

I just want our first date to go well 😅

Cathrine ☯️ wrote: "I don't mind no quotation marks, though this is the first time for me those have been absent along with other punctuation marks, just wondered why, if he finds those little marks all over the page ..."

Once you make it through that first chapter, as you said you have, you get used to it. I used to be a big fan of McCarthy, so I knew what to expect, even though to be honest, this one seems more straight-forward than some of his others.

Finished first chapter break of chapter 1…..no way you are to understand exactly what’s playing out in this first bit. My take away from this first sub-chapter….we meet Bobby’s sister. And Bobby is a main character according to the blurb.

Quite a few thoughts of what’s going on here but it’s all speculations. I’m pulled in.

Good to see references to East Tennessee from his earlier days there. Places I’m familiar with. There was some funny banter in the second half of chapter 1.

It remains to be seen, but I think I have that first chapter figured out, a bit anyway, maybe.
(view spoiler)[ The hanging woman who committed suicide is the diver's sister and she is suffering from delusions, schizophrenic no doubt, and as revealed at the end of the chapter, her brother was incestuously in love with her. Sadly, this disease runs in my family lines and I have experience with relatives who have suffered from it, including one friend, and one cousin who also committed suicide. But the conversation between her and these manifestations is just so bizarre. Is it supposed to be representational or meaningful to the reader? No idea. (hide spoiler)]

Cathrine, I think it's definitely plausible but it is McCarthy so not confident everything is as it seems. You know I just finished the newest JLB and the reader is torn between knowing what is reality, supernatural and mental illness. This one gives me a similar feel.

I'm intrigued with the passenger piece of the story too. I like Western's character. He's smart and I like that dry sense of humor.

When I was talking about CM's No Country for Old Men with my husband, he sent me this video of one person's take of the book. It definitely threw in a different perspective and it too was plausible. I like that his books take on different meanings for each reader. Again, I've only gotten through chapter 1, HAHA!

Yep, McCarthy seems to want to keep us off balance with his lack of punctuation and what-the-hell-is-going-on-here prose.
I think I mentioned this some time back, but my only other exposure to him was the film of NCFOM which on first viewing, I turned off after 10 minutes. Then I watched it a few years later (different mood I guess) and I couldn't tear my eyes away.

The book is fabulous and the movie does it justice. Tommy Lee Jones fit the role perfectly.

I'm googling a couple of things from this first chapter, there are some smart and deeper readers out there than me. But some of it makes reasonable sense and they are comparing it to some of his other works, all from just the 1st chapter!!!!

Laura wrote: "Good to see references to East Tennessee from his earlier days there. Places I’m familiar with. There was some funny banter in the second half of chapter 1."

Me too, good to see some areas of Knoxville that I recognize.

Those are the things I hope to see on this thread. I hope you will share when appropriate. Of course, I can't compare any of this one to those that came before.

I’m can’t retain all the similarities they mentioned bt books….one person mentioned this one opens similar to the Road, a favorite. But I can’t remember details that specific. It was impressive what all was contemplated from just chapter 1.

I’ve mentioned before that a coworkers dad actually assisted with some of the research for this book, specifically involving the city of Oak Ridge, TN.(think manhattan project)

I've got about 100 pages left. I'm still waiting for the pay-off and tie in with the more scientific elements of the novel. I will say that the narrative keeps reminding me of Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle.

The Goodreads platform frustrates me... I wanted to copy / paste the notes to my "Updates" on the novel, but I can't find them.

This is a great conversation. I'm hoping to get started tomorrow.

Good analysis Cathrine - keep reading. LOL!

I am loving reading the posts here since I have completed this book. Trying to get back to Stella Maris - but other books keep getting in the way.

Do you think the Kid represents parts of her brother Bobby? The flippers(he swims with flippers) and the scars on his head(maybe from the speedway incident)?

I don't know how I feel about this novel. I have completed it. I kept notes of my thoughts by chapter, so that I could participate in the conversation without spoiling anything.

So, chapter 1 thoughts as they occurred -

Is this a detective novel? Is Western going to solve a crime related to the deadly and mysterious plane crash?

Is The Kid a real person, or fiction of her imagination? What is her actual name, why does he call her so many different names?

If she is in a fantasy, is Western in one as well? Are the people he lunches with at the Napoleon House real people? These names sound like they could be fake: Long John, Bianca Pharaoh, Darling Dave, Brat, Seals, Willy V.

John's arrest is hysterical. Are he and Sheddan the same people?

Why is Western so desperate for details about Oiler's time in Vietnam?

Oiler recalls psyops playing audio of crying babies. (Kindle pg 39) Is this based on the real life events "Operation Wandering Soul"?