Victorians! discussion

Sorry Everyone for being a day late on this. I should have penned this before we visited the grandkids for a week.

At night in the mine Curdie listens to a goblin family getting ready to move. They are being encroached by the miners.

Curdie follows them at a distance and comes upon a large assembly and a huge cavern composed of shining materials where their king presides. From what he gathers there seem to be plans underway to gain freedom from their underground exile.

Princess Irene gets a visit from her King-Papa. They share refreshments and he asks her what she would like to do. She desires to visit her grandmother Irene. The King is surprised at this but hides his astonishment, though it is clear he knows more. At the same time a white dove descends on Irene's head and then flies off through an open window. He inquires why Irene had been out past sunset some days ago. It appears she and Lootie were seen after all. He leaves six additional guards upon leaving.

Months pass and it is now autumn. In the company of the housekeeper she plays with some curiosities out of an old cabinet. She pricks her thumb coming in contact with a brooch. It is very painful and despite it being treated she gets no relief and can't sleep. She seeks out her grandmother who treats it and miraculously it heals overnight. She stays with her grandmother all night and then wakes up in her own bed.

Curdie is now exploring the caves almost every night. With the help of a ball of string he makes sure he doesn't get lost.

The goblins have animals called cobs. They are just as deformed as they are. At night they leave the caves. The king's guards at first do not trust what they see but soon one by one they are convinced they are real .

Irene had promised her grandmother to come again Friday night. She gets scared by a cob who had leaped through the open window and she runs outside and up the mountain. It takes her a long time to return and seek out her grandmother.

Kerstin wrote: "Sorry Everyone for being a day late on this. I should have penned this before we visited the grandkids for a week..."

What would your grandkids think of the word 'excogitated', Kerstin? I had to resort to a dictionary. I think the writing in Victorian children's literature is in a different league compared to today's standards.

Towards midnight he began to feel rather hungry; so he dropped his pickaxe, got out a lump of bread which in the morning he had laid in a damp hole in the rock, sat down on a heap of ore, and ate his supper.

The dampness would have stopped Curdie's bread from drying out. Lower/working class youngsters in Victorian times accumulated quite a bit of practical wisdom, even if they were still emotionally children. Even if they weren't sent out to work they were helping in the house or fields. I have three teenagers at home and the lack of common sense they sometimes show is astounding! But preferable than the Victorian way of learning, I suppose.

He was at the entrance of a magnificent cavern, of an oval shape, once probably a huge natural reservoir of water, now the great palace hall of the goblins.

The description of the cavern where the King addressed his people brought to mind the Oval Office in the White House.

I found out that the Oval Office predates this story:

In 1790, Washington built a large, two-story, semi-circular addition to the rear of the President's House in Philadelphia, creating a ceremonial space in which the public would meet the president.

I wonder if there was any intentional or subconscious correlation between the two.

Jane wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "Sorry Everyone for being a day late on this. I should have penned this before we visited the grandkids for a week..."

What would your grandkids think of the word 'excogitated', Ker..."

LOL! They are still too small for big words like this. Come to think of it, I don't think I'm big enough either :-)

I wish I knew more about the king, her father. More about the family history. I’m hoping that we get more backstory before the end.

I’ve been thinking about The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addison. It’s completely different, of course, but deals with the intrigues and politics surrounding a half-blood prince who inherits the throne. I highly recommend it! Addison invents a wonderful, rich world for both her elves and her goblins.

Renee wrote: "I wish I knew more about the king, her father. More about the family history. I’m hoping that we get more backstory before the end.

I’ve been thinking about The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addiso..."

Yes! so far we don't know much about King-Papa. He seems to be a largely absent, benevolent, and protective figure.

Renee wrote: "I’ve been thinking about The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addison. It’s completely different, of course, but deals with the intrigues and politics surrounding a half-blood prince who inherits the throne..."

That's a new one for me, Renee. This part of the book reminded me of another classic.

Curdie kept quite still. After a little while, hearing nothing but the sounds of their preparations for departure, mingled with an occasional word of direction, and anxious to know whether the removal of the stone had made an opening into the goblins’ house, he put in his hand to feel.

Although a little bit different, the passages with Curdie snooping around the goblin homes and passages gave me The Borrowers vibes. In The Borrowers Afield (the second book in the series) the Borrowers are driven out from their home under the kitchen floor, similar to the goblins being driven out of their cave.

I find it interesting that we now find out from the Goblin race that they were the first possessors of the regions they now inhabit. They are aware of their history as an indigenous people. Whereas above ground, we are told that at one time they lived above ground, and were very like other people. But for some reason or other, concerning which there were different legendary theories ... they had all disappeared from the face of the country.

Could it be that the history of the goblins is deliberately being obliterated? We are drawn into feeling more sympathetic towards the goblins.

We understand that the First Nation people, now referred to as goblins, are being pushed to their limit. The goblins explain that the people above ground look upon them as a degraded race and that their finer feelings are being mocked. They are now ready to take revenge ... once for all.

Despite this, the goblin King is unwilling to proceed to extremities, and well aware that such measures sooner or later result in violent reactions. Despite their mischievousness, they seem to be presented here as non violent and unwilling to start a war. Is this a noble decision on the King's part or an unwillingness to sacrifice his people unnecessarily?

Jane wrote: "Could it be that the history of the goblins is deliberately being obliterated? We are drawn into feeling more sympathetic towards the goblins."

MacDonald is pointing toward the displacement of a people by decree. It is the king abusing his powers that they are driven underground. They could have migrated out, but chose not to.
Why?

The previous king is the catalyst, and it is safe to say he did not treat the goblins justly. So what is the proper role of a king?

Jane wrote: "Despite this, the goblin King is unwilling to proceed to extremities, and well aware that such measures sooner or later result in violent reactions. Despite their mischievousness, they seem to be presented here as non violent and unwilling to start a war. Is this a noble decision on the King's part or an unwillingness to sacrifice his people unnecessarily?"

How do you deal with, let alone solve, an injustice that happened long ago, still impacts the people, but the folks involved, most importantly the perpetrator, are no longer around? There are so many unresolved issues, many of which are unresolvable. What does it take from the parties involved to pass that hurdle?

I’m reminded of the relationship between hobbits and Gollum; between dwarves and goblins; between elves and orcs. A reminder see that anyone can be twisted from their true purpose or right life whether by mistreatment or poor choices or lack of options.

Kerstin wrote: "There are so many unresolved issues, many of which are unresolvable..."

I live in a divided country, with a long, complicated history. There are times when resolution seems an impossibility. I share Curdie's enthusiasm for finding out the goblin leader's peace plan!

Renee wrote: "A reminder that anyone can be twisted from their true purpose or right life whether by mistreatment or poor choices or lack of options..."

Yes. The 'twisting' can be mental and emotional for the oppressed and perceived (often with the aid of propaganda) as a physical phenomenon in the oppressors. This can suit their narrative. It's easier to maintain an oppression among those seen as different or less than human. I would say, in art, devolved features are used to represent both of these cases.

'Your knowledge is not universal quite yet,' said the father. 'You were only fifty last month.'

This is the first piece of information we get about the goblin lifespan. This raises more questions. Were the goblins always long-lived, or is it an evolutionary response to their changed living environment (and if so, why?). What is the meaning of 'universal knowledge' and the significance of it within this story?

Two things intrigue me after this second section of chapters.

Firstly, the Princess seems to be cherished by both her King Papa and her ‘great great grandmother,’ yet the King refuses to admit any knowledge of the great great grandmother’s existence. Which of these characters should the Princess trust? Can she trust both of them, only one, or neither?

The second issue for me is the author's description of the goblins and their livestock. I attempted to draw one of the goblins with a double size head, small body and soft feet with no toes. Also they have faces unlike any seen before by the soldiers. The main differences in the livestock seem to be their varying lengths of legs and necks.

None of these particular characteristics seem to be specific adaptations for life underground, except maybe the goblins’ exceptionally hard heads which would protect them from frequent knocks on low ceilings.

Even within the goblin community there seems to be a faction led by the King that wants a negotiated peace and another faction that want’s a violent war. The word ‘revenge’ has been spoken by the goblin family, so I am wondering where George MacDonald will go with that.

Trev wrote: "Which of these characters should the Princess trust? Can she trust both of them, only one, or neither?..."

More symbolism with the colour white. More of the snow- white pigeons which are connected with the great-great-grandmother, and now the great beautiful creature that is the King's white horse.

If we are to assume the colour white is symbolic of purity = good, we can rest a little easier regarding Irene's welfare. Or, as Trev has implied, can this be a deliberate misdirection?

Trev wrote: "The main differences in the livestock seem to be their varying lengths of legs and necks. None of these particular characteristics seem to be specific adaptations for life underground, except maybe the goblins’ exceptionally hard heads which would protect them from frequent knocks on low ceilings..."

No one understands animals who does not see that every one of them, even amongst the fishes, it may be with a dimness and vagueness infinitely remote, yet shadows the human: in the case of these the human resemblance had greatly increased.

So we see a reverse phenomenon here. Where the goblins became more beast like, the faces of the animals they took with them from above had grown in grotesque resemblance to the human. I can't quite grasp the symbolism here. I also wondered if there was an evolutionary element at play.

Renee wrote: "I’m reminded of the relationship between hobbits and Gollum; between dwarves and goblins; between elves and orcs. A reminder see that anyone can be twisted from their true purpose or right life whe..."

Yes!

We have two very distinct geographic settings, the top of the mountain where Irene lives and the underground caves and mining tunnels. This means that symbolically we are in very different settings as well.

Mountain top:
The mountain top is where the intersection between the earthly and the divine takes place. Think of Mount Olympus where the Greek gods live. Or in the Bible Moses climbs Mount Sinai and interacts with God directly. Jesus's Transfiguration takes place on a mountain top. In iconography most mountains have a very distinct triangular shape highlighting this fact. It is also a place of being surrounded by light, there aren't many shadows to confuse the eye or where things could be hidden. Everything is exposed. Spiritually it is a place of enlightenment and knowledge.

The Cave:
The cave is a place of darkenss and confusion, but also of deception. The absence of light disorients. But it is not one-sided. When one isn't used to the light, it is the light that disorients. Think of Plato's parable of "The Cave". The people in the cave don't believe the one who had ventured outside and saw light. Spiritually the darkness is a place of ignorance, but also deception and malice. Though this is not the full picture, for sometimes things need to be hidden before they can come to full fruition, such as a seed planted in the earth waiting to germinate when the right conditions occur. Or an idea or invention that needs to be developed first before they are shared with others.

So with the symbolism of darkness one needs to discern which attributes apply, same goes with the symbolism of light. Above I've only explored the mountain top, but light can be illuminating on the one hand, but on the other it also can destroy by overexposure.

Kerstin wrote: "We have two very distinct geographic settings, the top of the mountain where Irene lives and the underground caves and mining tunnels. This means that symbolically we are in very different settings as well."

I'd been focusing on different aspects of the story, Kerstin. I did notice a spiritual theme which brought to mind the works of Lewis Carroll.

There is the grandmother at the top of the castle that nobody sees or believes in, then we have the light that guides Irene home after getting lost.

But how was she to find her way back? What could that light be? Could it be –? No, it couldn’t. But what if it should be – yes – it must be – her great-great-grandmother’s lamp, which guided her pigeons home through the darkest night! She jumped up: she had but to keep that light in view and she must find the house.

George MacDonald, I see what you did there!

Kerstin wrote: "When one isn't used to the light, it is the light that disorients."

I found the following remark the father goblin made to his son, when they were evacuating their home, interesting (and possibly pertinent to my previous comment). Without any further context and lacking a resolution to the story, it can be quite open to interpretation.

What a distinction it is to provide our own light, instead of being dependent on a thing hung up in the air – a most disagreeable contrivance – intended no doubt to blind us when we venture out under its baleful influence!

The definition of baleful is threatening harm; menacing.

A large oval bed stood in the middle, with a coverlid of rose colour, and velvet curtains all round it of a lovely pale blue.

I wasn't aware that 'coverlid' is an alternative (earlier) spelling of 'coverlet'. A coverlid is a type of decorative, woven bedcover, usually made from a combination of linen, cotton and wool. They were popular in the 19th century.


19th Century Coverlid, Smithsonian Museum

Jane wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "We have two very distinct geographic settings, the top of the mountain where Irene lives and the underground caves and mining tunnels. This means that symbolically we are in very di..."

Yes, the story is not just spiritual, it has Christian themes throughout.

Jane wrote: "A large oval bed stood in the middle, with a coverlid of rose colour, and velvet curtains all round it of a lovely pale blue.

I wasn't aware that 'coverlid' is an alternative (earlier) spelling of..."

Oh I love you shared the picture, Jane! I love textiles, especially in their historic context. I'll have to dig out and share a podcast I listened to some time back on Victorian stitching.

Now for a technical question: How do you post pictures in a comment?

Kerstin wrote: "Yes, the story is not just spiritual, it has Christian themes throughout."

Indeed. I didn't want to be the first one to explicitly bring the topic up, usually group rules frown upon it. I don't suppose it can be avoided when it's a recurring motif in the group read!

Kerstin wrote: "I love you shared the picture, Jane! I love textiles, especially in their historic context."

How wonderful you have this interest, Kerstin! I was taken with the 19th century coverlid images I found and thought I'd share one with the group (being topical to the Victorian theme). I have to admit to having no especial knowledge of textiles myself, my appreciation is merely visual. I'm glad you enjoyed the photo!

Jane wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "Yes, the story is not just spiritual, it has Christian themes throughout."

Indeed. I didn't want to be the first one to explicitly bring the topic up, usually group rules frown upo..."

Given the George MacDonald was a minister, it makes sense that there are many spiritual overtones in his writing. As such, it makes sense for that to be part of the discussion. Everyone just needs to be respectful. Which is something we have always been able to count on from the members of this group. And why we’ve had so many lovely years of interaction.

Renee wrote: "Given the George MacDonald was a minister, it makes sense that there are many spiritual overtones in his writing. As such, it makes sense for that to be part of the discussion."

Although I've been on GR almost 11 years, I'm new to group participation. This was my first experience discussing a novel in a group setting. I have been unsure of group etiquette and timorous in deciding what I include in my contributions. Absolutely, it would be difficult to avoid discussion of religious aspects and symbolism in some works. Sadly, I've refrained from discussing certain facets of this story due to the above mentioned wariness.

Jane, no worries! We want you to be relaxed and enjoy the discussion. I am so glad you participated! And yes, it takes a little bit to get comfortable in a forum like this. As to your point, the way I look at it there is a difference between discussing contents and proselytizing. Nineteenth century literature in general is full of Christian context and Biblical references. It is hard to avoid! Our next read is George Eliot, and her books are usually choke full of Biblical references, and I must admit I am not always astute enough to recognize them all.