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Lost Realms
Winter Group Read of Lost Realms by Thomas Williams
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Really interesting start to the book. Thomas Williams writes beautifully, very poetic at times. I look forward to him focusing on these smaller realms and finding out how they flurrished and disappeared. I wonder why, if the Roman roads and structures were so useful that they were just left to become ruins? I've also bought the Tolkien book, but doubt I will get the references. I can't imagine that if the country was split into so many little realms with their own kings that there wouldn't have been a lot of fighting between the various areas. I'd like to know more about Alfred, who sounds like he was the most successful of them all.
Regarding Alfred, we watched through the various seasons of the BBC series The Last Kingdom, itself based loosely on Bernard Cornwell's Saxon Stories series of books. Obviously it's fiction, and there are numerous places where historical liberties are taken in the interest of storytelling, but it gives a convincing picture of a land of shifting loyalties, rivalries and compromises.
Shell wrote: "Really interesting start to the book. Thomas Williams writes beautifully, very poetic at times. I look forward to him focusing on these smaller realms and finding out how they flurrished and disapp..."I think that, as with the US interstate highway system, post-Empire, the successor bits and pieces states in general realized just how much the cost of maintenance and upkeep was. In post-Roman Britain, with many small successor states, nobody had that type of money.
Thank you Richard, I have had my eye on the Bernard Cornwell books, but I didn't know there was a series to watch. What you said makes sense Socraticgadfly, it would have been someone's responsibility to pay for all the upkeep. I have just bought a book called The Road: A Story of Romans and Ways to the Past by Christopher Hadley from Audible. It sounds like he will have quite a lot of info on roads that disappeared.
Oddly enough I came across another mention of that book recently but haven't yet taken the plunge with it. Please do let me know if you think it's good!
I agree - great start in the Prologue and the beginning of the introduction. With some wonderful turns of phrase, he lets his passion for the subject shine through. In our recent discussion of 1177 B.C., my friend Ray commented on how maddening it must be to try to put a picture together of the period, but I think TW gives us a rather good insight into what makes a dark age attractive to the historian (and reader!):“I have always rather liked the mystery that the term ‘Dark Ages’ implies. Just as blank pages on the map tug on the imagination of the explorer, so the darker spaces of history hold an allure that speaks to the hidden facets of the human psyche… The struggle to understand the scattered and difficult sources, the possibility of genuine discovery in a world where nothing can be taken for granted, represent an endless quest where everything is on the table to be interpreted afresh and the deepest secrets still lie locked within the earth. This book is for those who understand that the glimmer of gold in torchlight can be worth a thousand sun-drenched spires; it is a book that tells the stories of the most obscure kingdoms to have risen in Britain in the post-Roman dawn”
Nice.
Something else that came up quite a lot in the other discussion was the nature and cause of a 'dark age'. Again in the Prologue (which is titled A Journey in the Dark, a reference to both Dark Ages and to Tolkien btw) TW tells us his stance on the matter:
It has become fashionable in recent decades to argue that the trauma of collapse of the Roman Empire has often been overstated, that for many people life changed little if at all, that the tales told of devastation, plague, poverty, and violence were exaggerations, that the archaeological evidence for widespread and rapid collapse has been misinterpreted. Historians have always seen the past through the prism of their own age, in the shadow of recent memory, and the last period of relative peace experienced in the West has been remarkable for its overall stability and prosperity."
Agree with this or not, at least you know where he stands.
The introduction begins with a few colourful pages of reference to J.R.R. Tolkien's Farmer Giles of Ham, which is ostensibly set in the same period covered by this book. TW then goes on to explain why these nine kingdoms were chosen, and not others. Left out of the book are Wessex, Mercia, Kent, East Anglia, Dyfed, Gwynedd, Northumbria, Alt Clut, Dal Riata, and even more that aren't mentioned (e.g. Gododdin). By the time we reach the end of the intro, the flowery text has been left behind, and we're into serviceably plain prose.
I note that, even though he gave us a capsule survey of British Dark Ages history, there wasn't a single mention of The Matter of Britain - that is, the question of Arthur and his historicity. My guess is that he's either going to consign Arthur to the realm of myth, or avoid him altogether. Avoiding it is probably wise, but the romantic in me dreads the inevitable frisson of disappointment.
I also loved the passage "the glimmer of gold in torchlight can be worth a thousand sun-drenched spires"Also, this little extract really got my imagination fired up.
"Out there amid heath and hedgerow the tombs of unknown kings lie forgotten beneath stands of ash and birch - the graves of heroes whose names once rang beside hall-fires, whose horns once echoed in the hills; swords rusted, gold torn by the plough, treasure scattered over fields. Bones are dislodged from resting places, gnawed by foxes, badgers, rats; tossed and broken by grey roots questing among the dead.
And still the lords of the lost realms slumber on.
Absolutely beautiful.
Although, I am glad that once we get onto the main section, the language becomes more straight forward.
Of course I'm glad that Rheged made the cut :) having a local enthusiasm for said realm. But I'm equally looking forward to his treatment of other kingdoms, especially those which I am not familiar with, I particularly liked his criteria of getting fair coverage and avoiding the places that usually are the focus of discussion.
Shell wrote: "I also loved the passage "the glimmer of gold in torchlight can be worth a thousand sun-drenched spires"Also, this little extract really got my imagination fired up.
"Out there amid heath and hedg..."
Loved the prose here as it immediately sent me back to the music from the Detectorists series on TV and the more recent Digging for Britain 2023 currently running here in the UK. That sort of modern folk really sets the stage. I have the music running through my head as I read.
Yes, the Detectorists opening song is lovely.I think it's safe to move the discussion along to the next section - ELMET.
I'll give a brief summary, and a few comments.
We open with a warning about how scanty are the facts about this Kingdom, but we begin with some of what is known, or conjectured, about it's heroes and kings. Four are mentioned here, along with evocative epithets:
Aliortus the wanderer, Madog the Warrior, Gwallog whose deeds shook the mountains, and Ceredig, who lost his throne.
The third of these seems the best well known. He was King Gwallog ap Leenog. Fought against the English for the Old North confederacy of Brythonic kingdoms, the Hen Ogledd. Gwallog one of the Three Pillars of Battle and one of The Three Bull-Protectors and one of the Three Battle-Rulers. A contemporary of Morcant, Rhydderch of Alt Clut, and Urien of Rheged.
In this chapter, be get our first mention of two things I was wondering about, having been skipped over the the introductory material: The Kingdom of Gododdin, and a brief mention of Gwallog as a companion of Arthur.
Ceredig is his son, and between them there's a bit of vague history which, via the kingdoms of Bernicia, Deira, and East Anglia, we get the narrative that makes up most of this chapter. It seems a good enough story for Shakespeare, anyway!
Elmet itself, possibly from Brythonic for The Many Reapers, or similar. Possibly a breakaway fragment of the Brigantean confederacy, which was gone by late 7th C.
Elmet is mentioned in the Tribal Hidage 7th or 8th C. as having only 600 hides, so quite small.
We're introduced to Bede, who writes some reliable history, but his analysis of causes and records of direct speech are dubious, we're told.
After telling is the 'standard' story of the fall of Elmet, TW points out some other ways (even more Shakespearean) the few facts might be interpreted. He then cautions us readers (and writers) about not taking the easy route, and in doing so he mentions an older and rather well known work:
“I raise these issues not to be a curmudgeon, but simply to convey some of the difficulties encountered when attempting to write the history of this period. It can sometimes be tempting to construct a version of the post-Roman past that, while it may give every impression of a well-researched and plausible narrative, is conveyed with a surety and conviction utterly unwarranted given the flimsy foundations on which it is built. John Morris’ The Age of Arthur (1973) is a famous example of where this road can lead… A work that shackled an abject failure of scholarly judgment to an almost Tolkienian ambition. P.52
I happen to have this book on my shelf, though I can't recall if I ever read it. I'm glad to know what to look for, now, if I do.
The chapter ends with some placename evidence that helps establish a boundary for Elmet in west Yorkshire - these being ‘in Elmet’ names along Ermine Street Roman Road, and names that point to British occupation (walh, brettas, cumbra, loidis and eccles elements).
A I noted a few interesting asides. Since Shell and SocraticGadfly brought up the subject of Roman Roads and their loss, but TW mentions in this chapter that these roads remained the main transport network up to 18th century, which was a definite surprise to me.
Lastly, though we spend the most time with Bede, he also mentions the Historia Brittonum and the Annales Cambriae, which I'm sure we'll hear of again. All these books (and Gildas) come up a lot in the many books that try to pin down a historic Arthur (of which I've read a few) but this is the first time I've seen someone say that the Historia Brittonum has more besides history, and also lists miracles, marvels, legends, and the doings of wizards and saints. Colour me curious!
I can usually judge how much I liked a history book by how many notes I took; looks like I liked this chapter a lot!
I'm about half way through this chapter myself having been somewhat distracted by receving a copy of Jonny Hodgson's Maskwitches of Forgotten Doggerland (an RPG) and thus going back to After the Ice for a bit of a reread. I also latched on to the four book series by Carlos Ruiz Zafon starting with The Shadow of the Wind set just after the Civil War in Spain. So many books so little time.But back to post Roman Britain. I'm very much enjoying the writing style of Mr. Williams and am looking forward to finishing the Elmet chapter and pushing deeper into the smaller kingdoms.
Really fascinating chapter on this small realm. I love the way this author writes, saying that "the pasts of many ages layered one on top of the other like a pancake stack".Gwallog sounded like a very frightening foe, involved in many battles. What a shame we only have vague glimpses of these characters. A good job we have the writings of Bede as reference. I'd like to know more about him and also about King Arthur as I have no idea how much we think was based on fact or was pure myth. If anyone can recommend a good book on him that isn't too hard to read I'd be glad of it.
As mentioned, very interesting to read how late the Roman roads were still in good use. I have heard of Ermine Street before. Poor Ceredig must have been terrified knowing that the army of Raedwald and Edwin were streaming along the road to do battle with him after their recent victory at the river. It fires the imagination.
I read the novel Gallows Pole by Benjamin Myers last year all about the coin-clippers of the area, mentioned in the foot notes of this chapter. I highly recommend it although it's a very sad read. A lucrative but dangerous occupation.
Nigel, I also enjoyed The Shadow of the Wind books.
Can't wait to read about the other realms.
All great stuff and most enjoyable, I'm very much looking forward to the rest of the book.I liked the use of Brythonic elements in placenames to indicate boundaries - generally speaking such elements are all we have of most of the (presumed) Brythonic dialects, including Cumbraek which (naturally) is my own greatest interest). There are folk who question to what extent any of these dialects could be classed as real variations of "general" Celtic, which we largely encounter today through Welsh. Personally I'm cool with the idea that such dialects existed as real distinct entities, but it's by no means certain.
Some aspects of Williams's writing remind me of Sellar and Yeatman's 1066 and All That which - if you can find a copy - is a hilarious romp through English history. In particular his footnote "The earliest king of Deira... Aelle... not to be confused with Aelle of Sussex".
Ermine Street is, today, essentially the track of several A roads (main roads but not motorways) - the early parts out of London are now the A10, other bits are followed by the A14, and it eventually links with the A1. Hence the nomenclature of Ermine Street as "The Old North Road" in contrast to the A1 as "The Great North Road". Oddly enough I crossed Ermine Street yesterday travelling on the A17 back from north Norfolk to Cumbria. Like you, Chris, I was surprised to read the idea that the roads themselves formed the main transport network up to the C18th - certainly the routes did, and still do to a great extent, but I thought much of the fabric of the roads had been robbed for other building projects. I have also read that many of the Roman roads simply followed earlier Iron or even Bronze Age trackways, principally because they followed logical routes between the settlements that existed.
Nigel let me know that he's finished Elmet and has nothing further to add, so I think we can safely move along to the next chapter: HWICCE.This chapter Opens with a bit of romantic description, then TW gets into the confusing array of polities that make up the area today, which perhaps only makes sense to a local.
We learn the possibly legendary story about how Saxons Caewlin and son Cuthwine of the Gewissae tribe march westward in 577 to defeat British kings Coinmail, Condidan, and Fairnmail of Gloucester, Cirencester, and Bath. The battle took place at Deorham near Bath.
Next we catch a view into late 5th C. Britain thanks to Gildas, to whom we are introduced. And it looks bleak: a post-systems-collapse world, to crib something from 1177 author Eric Cline.
TW then looks at the life and fall of Cirencester, narrating this bit impressionistically. And for comparison he also looks at Crickley Hill on the other side of the Cotswolds, a native hill fort. Generally this area seems to have risen and fallen, but remained free of evidence of Saxon habitation.
Once again we turn to placename evidence for the location of Hwicce (which perhaps derives from Brythonic Hy Gwych ‘the most excellent ones?’) and gives us various Wych- and Which- names - making me wonder exactly how Hwicce is pronounced. Does anyone know?
Then follows a lengthy diversion into Bede’s opinion of the Celtic priests, their tonsures, and calculations of Easter that don’t seem to have much to do with Hwicce, except that the Roman clergy held a meeting to set set the celts straight at Augustine’s Oak, seemingly on the borders of Hwicce. Though not uninteresting, perhaps this is a bit of filler to round out a kingdom about wich very little is known. Same with the more prose-like description of Cirencester.
Lastly, we look at the domination and likely end of Hwicce by Penda and the kingdom of Mercia, and the gradual colonization of this land, both politically and religiously, by the end of the 8th c.
Thoughts on this chapter? Has the momentum been sustained?
Also, as an aside, how is everyone doing with the book, pace-wise? I've read on the end of Lindsay, but then stopped for a while to let others catch up.
" making me wonder exactly how Hwicce is pronounced. Does anyone know?"...If it was specifically Cumbraek we were talking about then from sources I have read "hw varies according to dialect, from the soft wh sound of Scottish what to a combination of ch + w " where -ch- is pronounced as in Scottish "loch". So I can imagine it being worn down in English to a -w- sound.
However... English regional dialects themselves vary in their pronunciation of -wh- with some sounding more like plain -w- and some more like -h w-. At a guess, this depends a little on the degree to which Brythonic rather than Germanic influence prevailed in that region.
What about the 'icce' element? Would it be 'ick', 'ickeh' or 'itch'? I originally thought the second, but all the references to '-wich' placename elements now make me think it's the third. Perhaps this evolved over time.
Nothing to contribute on pronounciation I'm afraid but I do think that Chris' 'romantic description' is some of the best narrative writing in the book. I'm loving the words and their flow when reading and have been a little tempted to read those passages out loud for their effect.
Chris wrote: "What about the 'icce' element? Would it be 'ick', 'ickeh' or 'itch'? I originally thought the second, but all the references to '-wich' placename elements now make me think it's the third. Perhaps ..."Not 100% sure but here are some contributing thoughts (they all apply to Welsh and Cumbraek so presumably in the parent Brythonic):
1) c is always hard as in cat and never soft as in city
2) All consonants are to be pronounced unless they are part of specific combinations (eg ch, dh, th are single consonants) so my guess would be that cc would have both c's pronounced
3) All indicated vowels are pronounced
4) e is normally short (as in pen) but can be long (as in fey) especially when found at the end of a word
So.. my guess (and it is little more than that) is that Hwicce would be pronounced something like whik-keh - which doesn't really help with the name elements we started with, unless you assume that over the years, and during the incorporation into Anglo-Saxon and then English from the original Brythonic, the -keh part was lost and you just have a whik- element left.
Name origins aside, again I really enjoyed this chapter (and ditto the chapter on Lindsey which I am now part-way through). It is fascinating just how much Williams can infer from very scanty evidence by combining different strands (text, archaeology, names, more recent boundaries etc). I suppose a critic might say that he is spinning straw into gold, but if so it is very fine gold :)
Lindsey was another fun read. The man has a beautiful vocabulary and put's it to good use. I can see why his earlier Viking book was such a hit. The section on Essex which I've read has me thinking of the speculation the writer of Detectorists came up with for the reliquary that forms part of the story there.
Shell, how are you progressing?
I'm not sure if Shell is still with us, but since Richard and Nigel are well into Lindsay, now, and I've finished, I thought I'd post my notes on this chapter:The chapter beings with Monks and Marshes and some evocative writing on lonely people in a wet and lonely place.
Lincoln was a respectable Roman town with a large basilica, but fell gradually to ruin at the end of the 4th century. The surrounding lands seemed to be mostly pagan, judging by burial practices.
Page 108 footnote from on meaningless runes.
Bede rears his head again, again, and is looked at more critically in this chapter.
Then we return to the Historia Brittonum and it’s famous list of Arthur’s battles, many of which would seem to have taken place in Lindsay. Was Arthur a man of Lindsay?
The Gododdin also is mentioned here, and with more poetic license, seems to suggest Lindsay as a place of battles.
Hanging bowls and other grave goods suggest a Celtic continuity in this region after the fall of Rome.
List of ancestors of a king Aldfrid is mentioned, one named Woden. Seems that several kingdoms had kings descended from gods, including Deira, Bernicia, Mercia, East Anglia, Kent, and Wessex. This king list was compiled in late 8th c, long after Lindsay was no longer a kingdom, and perhaps represents a late attempt a nation building by a later king (a process which never died, as we will see at the very end of the book!)
We see increasing Anglicization, but also increasing Christianity.
Caenby Barrow and the dancing man motif on helmet are dealt with in some detail.
And finally, as with previous chapters, we look at Ing and Inga personal and placename elements with an eye to defining boundaries.
Toward the end of Lindsay, control was flipping back and forth between Northumbria and Mercia. Burials at Bardney Abbey are mentioned.
I've been enjoying this book immensely - nice recommendation, Nigel
Thanks Chris. I too have been enjoying the read. A lot of my enjoyment is down to the very in period use of very poetic language as well as the interesting historical snippets. In reading this I find that I am very much re-evaluating Bede as more of a nasty self-agrandising old curmudgeon than a reliable or even semi-reliable source. His bias against those who preserved Christianity during the early part of the post-Roman period is palpable and constant pushing of his brand of Christianity makes for a poor reputation as a chronicler.
I drive through parts of Lincolnshire about once a month en route to my daughter's house in Norfolk - normally the southern part from Newark (in Nottinghamshire) across the fens to Kings Lynn (in Norfolk) but occasionally when road works require via Lincoln itself. It's the area that Felix described as "consisting now of marshes, now of bogs, sometimes of black waters overhung by fog" and Williams comments "a waterlogged wilderness that once dominated eastern England".Something that always strikes me is how impoverished the area feels compared to Notts or Norfolk - there's definitely a change with the county boundaries, seen in terms of the road and its adjacent buildings, the small towns, and even the price of petrol! I've often wondered why this should be, and his chapter got me thinking all over again.
Is it simply the fact of the fen area that once covered so much of Lincs? But it has mostly been drained years ago, and the soil is, I think, quite fertile. Other similar places - Cambridgeshire, parts of Norfolk, Holland and so on - have thrived. Or, having read this chapter, does it go back to the period when Mercia, Northumbria and East Anglia all squabbled over it, taking turns to claim it but (clearly) with none of them being very bothered about losing it again, as though nobody really cared who it belonged to?
Certainly the idea that this area was at one stage a little pocket kingdom with its own identity totally makes sense.
Also I forgot to say with that comment how the idea that Arthur was a Lincolnshire man is something I hadn't come across before! The usual divergence of opinion is a basically southern view largely se in what became Wessex (and arguably a nice bit of propaganda for said region) or else a northern one set around Hadrian's Wall and such like.It's certainly true that you can find places called "Arthur's XYZ" pretty much anywhere in the country - I can see out of the window a hill called Stone Arthur - but previously I hadn't seen a serious suggestion that he was based around the fens.
Finished the final section covering eastern parts of Scotland. This was both very interesting in it's discussion of the Picts and yet so vague due to lack of much evidence. Still it was a decent end to a marvellous book. It was both stirring in it's use of language - the intro pieces for the chapters, and thought provoking in the choice of the kingdoms being discussed. I might follow up with either his Vikings or his London book to see how he treats thos historical events.
Posting my notes on Dumnonia:Named after the Dumnonii, who lived in Cornwall and Devon
Capital at Isca Dumnoniorum (the water of the Dumnonii). Later anglicized as Exe Ceaster (Roman town on the river) and shortened to Exeter.
(Isca is a romanization of Brythonic word for river, but TW doesn’t give that original word, I think it is perhaps wysg or uisc, also the root of the word whisky.)
Not much in the way of Roman ruin in Cornwall, suggesting local independence, but TW hints that Dumnonia clung to Mediterranean culture ways longer than other places.
Geoffrey of Monmouth gives us Arthurian legend, told ‘with horny relish’ and ‘The Matter of Britain’ is born. It is here, in Cornwall, at Tintagel Castle, that Uther Pendragon sought out Ygraine with the help of Merlin, and Arthur was conceived.
Tintagel is revealed in some quite evocative writing at first, and then in terms of archaeological findings.
Connections are drawn between Tintagel and king Constantine, and Constantinople and king Justinian. Justinian restored a shrine to the Ia in Constantinople.
Men Scryfa and other ancient stone monuments are described. Some are inscribed: "Rialobranus, son of Cunovalus" and "Cirusinius here lies Cunomori Filius". The later once thought to relate to Tristan, still thought to relate to Conomor, who via the Historia Francorum, may be the person behind the legend of Bluebeard.
He paints Dumnonia as a sea kingdom with more ties to Ireland, Wales, and Brittany than to England. Later, much the same will be said of another southwest kingdom, Galloway, with ties to Ireland, Man, the Hebrides, and Cumbria.
Dumnonia fades from view in the 7th century with gradual incorporation of Devon into Wessex, placename evidence marks the River Tamar as the boundary. Cornwall remained independent to its last king, Dungarth, who died in 875 amid Viking intrigue. After that, Alfred of Wessex ruled Cornwall. But it has always been a place apart.
Another great chapter with some real nuggets in it. I thought in particular his section talking about how we here in Western Europe have bought solidly into the idea that 476 and the fall of Rome meant the end of all things was spot on. Although I knew that the Byzantine Empire had lasted a whole lot longer, I had no idea that it was resurgent in the 6th century, still less that it had recaptured Italy and Rome.Cornwall nowadays is another marginal region of the British Isles, as are most of the little transient kingdoms we are reading about in this book (we're going to get to Rheged before too long). Many of those regions are now regarded as basically poor and on the fringes, though nice to go and see on holiday. Conversely we all have a rather cynical view of Parliament and its London and South-East centric bias, and simply assume that folk in central government won't know or care about what goes on in Cornwall, Cumbria, Northumberland, and so on.
It all makes me contemplate how wealth and power tends to pool into certain places and then stop there, like a kind of gravity well. Wessex and Mercia are still the seat of decision-making and profit in the UK. Northumbria might have stayed like that if it wasn't for the actions of William the Conqueror (obviously later than the period of Forgotten Realms) who systematically destroyed the infrastructure and most of the population in retaliation for what he saw as hostile actions.
Regarding the Mediterranean influence, olive oil, luxury and all, I was aware of connections back in the Bronze Age for tin trading between Phoenicia and Cornwall (including the Scilly Isles) - I hadn't realised that this carried on so much later.
It is absolutely true about the change from Cornwall into Devon - it really is like going into a new realm, and the whole business about Wessex's focus on Devon makes perfect sense.
I did like the picture painted of this "western lands" consortium, linking Brittany with Cornwall and Ireland, and presumably all the way up that remaining collection of Brittonic outposts.
My notes on Essex:A colourful intro lays bare both the author's geek cred (Trigan Empire is mentioned!) and his position on nuclear energy!
St Peter-ad-murum, a 7th century church just around the corner from Bradwell B nuclear plant, is an early Saxon church. Saxons came from the area between the Weser and Elbe rivers in Germany.
After opening with a bit of romantic description, the author reveals the confusing array of polities that make up the area today, which perhaps only makes sense to a local. An old vow reveals the names of three of their gods: Thunor, Woden, and Seaxnot. The first two are Thor and Odin. The last is kettle known, but the East Saxons traced their lineage to him.
St Alban is described as Britain’s oldest martyr.
Essex remained a places of mixed Saxon and British culture after the fall of Rome. Prittlewell tomb.
Augustine’s Mission 597 is given some space.
Saeberht is the earliest king of East Saxons about whom something is known. Son of Sledd and Ricula, sister of King Aethelbert of Kent. He was a Christian, like his wife and brother in law. He died in 616, same year as Aethelbert. Saeberht’s three sons booted Bishop Mellitus back to Kent and renounced Christianity. But they were soon killed in battle by the Gewissae (west Saxons), which Bede took as divine justice. Christianity would return in 653 thanks to Oswy of Northumbria, and a priest named Cedd of Lindisfarne, novice under the famed Aidan of Iona. This time it's a Christianity of Scottish origin.
Cedd founded a number or churches, one being that of St Peter-ad-murum, which was mentioned in the intro.
Cedd became bishop of London and remained in that position long past the king he converted and Northumbrian influence.
Then plague hit, the king died, the new kings rejected Christianity, but again it was reintroduced (and this time in a flavour Bede approved) by the Mercian king, Wulfhere. King Saebbi was the first king buried in London, in St Paul’s church (and later to be joined by Aethelred the Unready.
London: Roman London was in decline through the 4th C, losing the basilica, amphitheatre, and Mithraeum, while the nature of the city changed. A late Roman diocese was created here, but by the 5thC it was a ghost town.
Noted that this is the first chapter in the book that doesn’t discuss placename evidence in an effort to set the boundaries.
Another good chapter which set me thinking in several directions. First, once again Essex (the modern county) contains a number of seriously impoverished areas so this is another example of how this early history has left a shadow down through the years.Also, how this is (I think) the first example in the book of a petty kingdom which wasn't a British enclave boxed in by Saxons, but rather a Saxon kingdom that didn't fare well in comparison to its siblings. I wondered if this was related to its religious vacillation between Christianity (or both major types) and the traditional religion of the European ancestors. The kingdoms that did well (esp Wessex) were ones which basically picked a religious affiliation and stuck to it come what may, which maybe was a better survival strategy than switching sides every generation?
Also how Essex - by which I mean here the original kingdom extending into Surrey, London, and parts of what we now call the Home Counties) has essentially no defensible boundaries once you start getting pushed back a little. There is a chalk ridge (The Chilterns) which makes a natural boundary in a line roughly north-east to south-west roughly from Luton to Reading, but if you ever lose control of that then there's nothing to stop your adversaries going straight into London. And south of the Thames there's basically nothing to stop someone in Winchester pushing via Andover and Basingstoke into the middle of Surrey. So the original choice of homeland by the East Saxons was, arguably, quite a poor one and one which was doomed to failure.
I love your 'boots on the ground' takes on these places!Anyway, on to Rheged? At last, a region I'm familiar with!
TW describes this as the the most enigmatic of the lost realms - its borders are hard to define and perhaps it didn’t even exist! But now it's thought to have comprised Dumfries and Galloway (+ Carrick? Though this isn't mentioned in the text, it was historically associated with Galloway) and Cumbria.
Williams treats us to a lengthy description of the landscape over which Hadrian’s Wall stretches, including life in the forts during and after Roman times. This discussion strays pretty far east outside of the supposed bounds of Rheged, but then I guess we don't know what those are.
Next we learn about Saints Patrick (from the area of Carlisle) and Cuthbert ( who visited Carlisle). Then we travel across the Solway to Galloway, a land of peninsulas and incised by rivers, more evidence for early Christianity at Whithorn and Kirkmadrine. The perhaps royal strongholds of Trusty's Hill and Mote of Mark are both mentioned.
The Burning Man film (starring Christopher Lee) is brought up.
Urien of Rheged is revealed through the Historia Brittonum, Welsh Triads, Thomas Malory, The Book of Taliesin, and John Boorman. The poems seem to refer to his Christian might, rather than to his charity.
The poems also help to place Rheged. It is bounded by Alclud (Dumbarton/Strathclyde), Manau (Stirling/Clackmannan), Gododdin (Edinburgh/Lothian), Powys (see next chapter), and two less well defined places, Mathry (maybe Pembrookshire?) and Goddeu (a woodland?). These are the places that are not Rheged. Rheged, therefore, lies somewhere in between.
Urien had control over certain places which we could also use to define Rheged. These are Catraeth (likely ‘battle-shore' rather than Catterick), Llynfennydd (river Lyvennet in Cumbria / Carlisle), Erechwydd (‘at the clear water’?), and Aeron (Ayr, rather than Airedale).
There are also some battles mentioned, which might suggest boundaries. But many names are vague. Alclud Fort and Clutuein both point once again to Strathclyde, Brenwyn may refer to Redesdale, and Gwen Ystrad maybe to Winster Valley, Cumbria.
Oddly to me, the one placename that actually seems to reference Rheged, Dunragit, is for some reason relegated to a footnote, perhaps because TW is eager to centre Rheged in Cumbria, rather than Galloway, despite the earlier focus on Trusty’s Hill and the Mote of Mark as royal centres.
My own take on this kingdom is that it was a rather nautical kingdom, with the Solway at it's heart and dwellings mostly located on the littoral and up the valleys. This would jive with what I've read of the medieval Lordship of Galloway, settled by then by Gall Gaidheil (Stranger Gaels) of Norse/Celtic descent and running the kingdom (like the associated ones of Mann and Sommerled's Isles) by longship.
Also oddly to me, TW includes no discussion on the etymology of the name Rheged, perhaps because it's so speculative. Wikipedia suggests some loose ideas of it being based on 'Great Wood' or 'Before the Wood' which would make sense for a nautical kingdom. Other sources suggest it come from Brigantes (Brigant -> Breged -> Rheged).
See this link for a very different take on Rheged than the one presented in this book:
https://englishmonarchs.co.uk/celts_9...
It's an interesting chapter, partly because it's dealing with a time period in Rheged much earlier than I had previously read about. So I'd linked it with King Dunmail (for whom Dunmail Raise is named) but he - if he existed - was 10th century, and possibly the same person as the historical Dyfnwal ab Owain, King of Strathclyde.According to another web page (https://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/cel...) Rheged split into northern and southern portions c.535, and the two parts survived for about another hundred years. The various rulers have colourful nicknames - Gwrast Lledlwm "The Ragged", Cynfarch Oer "The Dismal" and so on. IN that page's view, Rheged did not include any part of lowland Scotland but extended south through Lancashire to the Welsh border. I suppose this highlights the complete uncertainty of anything resembling a border!
I'm not sure about the implication that Hadrian's Wall might have been some kind of border - it kind of runs at right angles to the Dumfries and Galloway / Cumbria region so it's not clear to me how it could be defended. Sure there are the milecastles but these are pretty small. Also this end of the Wall is not nearly so impressive a structure as the middle and eastern ends, and increasingly becomes a turf structure rather than actual stone walling. But perhaps what is being identified is the theme of it being a militarised zone?
St Patrick has in fact some associations with Ullswater, along with Saints Ninian and Martin, al linked (perhaps tenuously) with the Old Church in Martindale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Mart...) which also has a most magnificent yew tree in the graveyard. Some folk reckon that Ninian was not originally a Christian saint, but rather a Christianised overlay of Niniane, a preChristian figure who appears in the Arthurian material as trainee and betrayer of Merlin.
I have to confess that I really enjoyed the prospect that Rheged, whilst almost certainly somewhere up here, remains elusive as regards exact details!
The most recent scuttlebutt on Ninian that I’ve seen is that he was, in reality, St Finian of Moviile, who established churches in Galloway, and whose name was later misinterpreted.
Sounds as likely as any other explanation I have seen :)
My notes on Powys:The current boundaries of Powys don’t match the original kingdom, it seems. TW offers an explanation as to why.
The Pillar of Eliseg is then discussed, and the history it relates, albeit of the of the 8th & 9th century, much later that what’s been discussed for the other kingdoms. It was erected by a 9th century ruler named Cyngen to honour his grandfather, but also seemingly and effort to establish his credentials as rightful ruler. It mentions illustrious and perhaps legendary figures of the past, including Vortigern, Germanus, and Magnus Maximus, as ancestors.
Another, earlier ruling family of three kings is mentioned, these being Brochfael, Cynan, and Selyf, themselves descendants of the legendary Cadell of the Gleaming Hilt. This family was active in the late 6th and early 7th century and were embroiled in the conflicts that followed the Synod of Chester.
Between these two families, the Mercians may have held sway, most notable under Offa in the late 8th c. After Offa, Cyngen and his crew reclaimed the area for the British and erected the Pillar of Eliseg. Cyngen’s rule didn’t last long, though; Cyngen and Powys fell to the Mercians in 822.
Speaking of Offa, TW writes: ”The so-called Mercian Supremacy was really an exercise in early medieval gangsterism, and the Mercian king was an Offa you couldn’t refuse.”
Oh Dear!
There’s some interesting placename discussion in this chapter, comparing Viroconium, Uricon, Wrekin, and Wroxceter - all different spellings of basically the same word - something that never occurred to me before.
I have to confess that I found this chapter less gripping than most of the others, probably because the story that he was presenting seemed to be strung rather too thinly over rather too few data points! The stuff about Mercian - Powysian relationships was a good read in itself, and likewise the stuff about why the current borders of Powys bear little relationship to the historic kingdom (if I was a Welsh nationalist I would probably have words to say about the way the county boundaries have been somewhat mangled).
Otherwise, I don't have a lot to say on this one
A hark-back to the Hwicce chapter - I had cause to look up some details about King Alfred's daughter Aethelflaed, who was married to Aethelred of Mercia (in the streamed series The Last Kingdom he is presented as a rather nasty individual, but I don't know how much of that is speculation and storytelling). But apparently Aethelred was from the Hwicce people, and he (and Aethelflaed) maintained this connection by building up Gloucester as a major defensive and trade centre. All this of course much later than the Hwicce we read about - Aethelred 911 so well after the Vikings had arrived on these shores. But an interesting connection for all that, and not one that I wold have recognised before reading this book :)
Yes, I also found the earlier chapters a little more engaging, but I think he gets it back by the end. :-)Since you mention Aethelflaed, I have this book on my wishlist:
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/sho...
Moving on, now, to my notes on
SUSSEX
TW tells that the Saxon Shore of Sussex and Kent was the ground zero for the saxonization of Britain. Originally the name may have been a reference to the Saxon shore forts, a Roman barrier against invasion? Or was it an administrative area for settlers?
Bishop Wilfred of Northumbria's visit to the Saxon Shore in 666 paints it as a xenophobic area.
Some early kings and their rough reigns:
477 - Aelle & sons Cymen, Wlencing, and Cissa mentioned. They fought decisive battle at Pevensey castle in 491.
449 - Hengest and Horsa and Aesc landed in Kent.
495 - Cedric and Cynric in Wessex,
501 Port, Bieda, and Meagla in 501
514 Stuf and Wihtgar
Gildas and Bede seem to support the conquest scenario from Saxon chronicles, but the archaeology points to mixed society. Frankish grave goods have been found, but isotope studies on bodies suggest most of those buried at Eastbourne were from Britain, not from the continent.
Perhaps this comes down to propaganda on the part of Alfred and others. The Saxon origin stories are especially suspect. The names Wihtgar and Port were likely made up and based on older place names, rather than inspiring new ones.
An interesting source is mentioned: the Indiculus Superstitionum et Paganiarum - little index of thirty superstitious and pagan practices that originated with Charlemagne’s missionaries late 8th C., and places like Thundersbarrow and Apple Down
Wilfred returns in 680 with the goal of conversion, which ended up being quite easy. He stayed until 686, when an exile from the Weald named Caedwalla came to him as a student (in one account) or conqueror (in another). He took over the place for a time.
But around 825, Sussex was absorbed into Wessex, and I guess that's about what we know of the Kingdom of Sussex.
I found this one interesting because of local connections. I grew up mostly in Surrey, and Sussex is the next county across, and The Weald formed a major part of our geography lessons (though was never mentioned in history). So my early view of this was that it was a geologically interesting area which was quite easy to map and also easy to get across. The idea that under 2000 years ago it would have been largely impenetrable was new!That said, some years ago we walked part of the North Downs way (which goes in an arc from Farnham in Surrey round to Dover and its White Cliffs) and on a wet day the interface between the chalk ridge and the layer of clay just below it is slippery and extremely hard going. The South Downs (from Winchester broadly along the south coast to Eastbourne) is a much easier walk. So I can believe that when it was still covered in dense woodland it would seem wild and inaccessible.
My other big takeaway from this chapter was the general unreliability of Alfred's Chronicle - I mean, I had assumed that it was selective in its choice of facts, but I hadn't quite twigged that it was self-serving to the point of deception!
Also interesting that this was another Saxon kingdom which failed, rather than a British one which was assimilated / annihilated. Like Essex, it is hard to find defensible borders (other than the woodland, presumably) so I suppose once Mercia and Wessex took a serious interest then its days were numbered.
That Aethelflaed and Aethelred book looks appealing at some stage,
Though not as numbered as Norsex, which seems never to have existed at all, :-DOn to the last chapter?
FORTRIU
This chapter opens with an examination of the Picts and their place in myth and pop culture (and particularly the sword and sorcery stories of Robert E. Howard?), and how wrong much of this has been. Then we move into examining some (perhaps equally shaky) aspects of Pictish culture, such as matrilineality and a non-indo-European language. Then we look at what Pictish symbol stones might reveal.
The section on writings introduces us to an origin story via the Pictish King List, which is clearly not historical.
Then a look at the kingdom of Fortriu itself, and its people, in texts, beginning with the Verturiones. Mention is made of the neighboring (and just as lost!) kingdom of Ce near Inverurie. Though the names of no kings of Ce have survived, the names of some stories have: The Ravaging of Mount Ce (modern Bennachie - Ben a Ce) and The Ravaging of the Plain of Ce by Galo son of Febal. Sadly the stories themselves are lost, perhaps waiting for an aspiring historical fiction writer to fill in the blanks?
Further west, Rhynie was another area, though we know very little about it except for its impressive archaeological remains and evidence of long distance trade. It was abandoned in the late 6th c. at the same time as a number of other Pictish settlements, perhaps absorbed by Fortriu, too (e.g. near Stonehaven).
Burghead also had a huge fort, destroyed by fire only in the 9th c., and notable for its carvings of bulls. The possible meanings behind Pictish stones are mentioned, as well as the gradual incorporation of Christian symbology into Pictish stones. The story of the Picts conversion comes from Adomnan’s Life of Columba, the only real source of info. Little can be surmised of Pagan North British beliefs, except maybe there were multiple gods.
Monasteries and other Christian sites from the mid 6th c. are mentioned next.
Portmahomack was a monastery and survived to about 800, a place of industry and devotion.
Rosemarkie another location, home of Bishop Curetan. Kinnedar as well.
Fortriu grew, and came into contact with neighbors - Alt Clud at Dumbarton, and Northumbria, which resulted in dynastic alliances. Eventually, Fortriu became ‘Pictland’, and that was in turn subsumed by the western Gaelic kingdom of Alba.
The New Edinburgh History of Scotland covers some of this in the first volume: From Caledonia to Pictland
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6...
The history of Pictland itself is covered very well in the next volume - From Pictland to Alba, by Alex Woolf:
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/sho...
Again a nice chapter helping me to fill in a part of Scottish history which was almost entirely unknown to me. The contrast between the "naked barbarian" rhetoric and the rather cultured reality, complete with Mediterranean imports, was particularly acute.Out of interest and spurred on m=by your authoring suggestion, I had a quick look for HF books on the Picts and found comparatively few (some folk classify Arthur Ransom's "The Picts and the Martyrs" under this heading which is surely wrong). For some reason Neil Gaiman's "The Graveyard Book" also makes the cut which surprised me.
Other than that, and excluding non-fiction, most authors seem to tackle it for a young adult audience, including the handy title "Blade of Fortriu". Might the most historically accurate turn out to be Asterix and the Picts" (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...)?
By strange chance I came across this article yesterday which tackles the issue of Pictish originshttps://www.livescience.com/archaeolo...
In brief, the study refutes the idea (going back to the Venerable Bede, at least) that the Picts migrated to Scotland from the Aegean or elsewhere in Eastern Europe, but rather were of local origin, with the DNA still persisting to modern times in Scotland and northern England
Relating more to the overall book, I came across a trilogy the other day called The Northumbrian Thrones (book 1 is at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Edwin-High-B...) set in the early 7th century, and lots of the familiar names from Lost Realms turn up in it (Hwicce, Elmet and others). I downloaded the sample section but it's good enough that I will splurge on at least the first in the trilogy and see where it takes me.
There's a GoodReads list that covers Pict and Caledonian historical fiction, but I'm not familiar with the books (except the Robert E Howard books, which can be written off as being historical, really).https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/1...
Anyway, thanks for sticking with me to the end! I really enjoyed the book and the discussion.
I'll be up for another one of these in the fall, so look for a new thread in September or October (if someone else doesn't start one before then).
Talking of the end of the book, I found his section at the end "A Note on Terminology", dealing in particular with the use of the term "Anglo-Saxon" to be both fascinating and somewhat dispiriting, dealing as it does with the several ways in which the terminology has become something of a battleground of diverse usage.
And yes, I'd be happy to join in with another slow read of this nature later in the year :)
Ah, yes - good point on the Terminology, and good on him to include the topic. I didn’t appreciate it was so fraught, but it makes sense.
Unless anyone has any objection (and now is the time to voice it) we'll discuss the book chapter by chapter, beginning with the prologue/introduction. Anyone can initiate a new chapter discussion, but I'd ask that you let everyone who has agreed to join the read a chance to comment on the previous chapter first. This will help keep anyone from falling behind.
Also, anyone who has previously read the book or otherwise feels they have something to contribute is welcome to do so. However, I do ask you you try to stay on topic; we only have one thread to discuss the entire book, so lengthy side topics are best done in their own threads.
Lost Realms: Histories of Britain from the Romans to the Vikings