All About Books discussion

Leslie and I happen to be reading the same book in March. Anyone else is free to join us. We'll comment on our thoughts about the book here.

It might seem weird, but this book has been making me think of Avatar. Of course this book was written years before in the 1970s,.

Another thing that strikes me from chapter 1: the level of casual sexism is shocking. But I think back to the 1990s when some of my coworkers used to hang girlie swimsuit calendars in their offices. It felt bizarre to me even then, but it was considered "normal" among engineers at the time. I imagine in 1975, the bar was even lower. Nowadays, my company would never tolerate such a thing.

Interesting! At the moment I'm a bit "full up" with readings I have already scheduled; but I'll keep it in mind!

LauraT wrote: "Interesting! At the moment I'm a bit "full up" with readings I have already scheduled; but I'll keep it in mind!"

:)

Getting close to the end of chapter 2 now:

The extraterrestrials' way of experiencing dreams and the dream world is interesting. I really like the way Le Guin often comes up with a whole uniform sort-of anthropological understanding of her fictional cultures!

Greg wrote: "It might seem weird, but this book has been making me think of Avatar. Of course this book was written years before in the 1970s,..."

Yes, I had that idea too! I think it is the forest that makes that connection...

Sorry to be MIA - the switch to DST followed by the arrival of a new cell phone & then a snowstorm are my excuses :)

Greg - Le Guin's world-building is one of the reasons I rate her so high. She manages to make a completely consistent anthropological culture that still can make commentary on our own culture.

That said, I am finding the dream world a bit problematic. Maybe as I read further it will become clearer to me...

No pressure at all Leslie! Hope everything is getting better with the cell phone and the snowstorm. The weather has been bonkers lately! It's been raining in California for what seems like nonstop for weeks and weeks. A good thing in curing our statewide drought (the reservoirs are now all full and in some cases overflowing) but I am starting to miss the sunshine a bit. :)

As we get further, I'm curious as to what you're finding problematic in the dream world?

I can think of several possibilities, such as the most practical problem that sometimes it isn't too clear what is happening there. The visions or whatever you call them are a bit disjointed and vague, and the terminology the "Crechie" culture uses differs from ours. I'm still trying to figure out what they mean by "god" - it seems to be a certain sort of dreamer?

Even with all of that, I'm still kind of fascinated by it. But I've always been interested in dreams and visions of all sorts, rational or not.

Completely agree with you when you say "She manages to make a completely consistent anthropological culture that still can make commentary on our own culture"! I think her book The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia does a better job at conceiving the nuances (both good and bad) of some of our own world's political experiments much better than any non-fiction can do. By detaching things from the details of our world, she can much better get at the heart of things and not get blinded by partisan feelings.

I just finished chapter 2 and will be listening to chapter 3 on my way in to work this morning.

Ended up getting through this really quick! I finished yesterday, and I loved the ending. I'll wait until you finish before I comment on it - don't want to ruin anything with spoilers.

I think that the vagueness is the source of my main difficulty with the dreaming. I am having trouble imagining what it is and what it means to the 'creechies'...

I have been pondering about your question of the use of the term 'god' for Selver. For many of the gods they mention (who are unlike Selver), they seem to be archetypes. When I am finished, we can discuss this issue in more detail!

Colonel Davidson keeps reminding me of Ron DeSantis! That sense of entitlement due to being a man... Not that I want to digress into politics here or I will be ranting and offending people :(

Leslie wrote: "Colonel Davidson keeps reminding me of Ron DeSantis! That sense of entitlement due to being a man... Not that I want to digress into politics here or I will be ranting and offending people :("

Oh my goodness, I completely know what you mean! That character really embodies all of the traits I find most disgusting, though like you, I think such people absolutely exist. He is a person in a position of power who has always been listened to - attractive and feeling hugely entitled, completely oblivious to what might be going on with anyone else and totally incapable of any real empathy. Anything bad that he causes he always thinks is someone else's fault. He scapegoats anyone different, and despite the fact that he has all the power, he continually feels victimzed by the slightest challenge from anyone. And yes, his casual sexism is so appalling. If he walked in the room I would leave if at all possible. Despite his supposedly high IQ, his lack of empathy makes his behavior incredibly stupid. He doesn't understand anything going on around him properly. A crazily infuriating and yet believable man-monster whose type I have encountered in real life here and there (and desperately avoided).

Greg wrote: "... despite the fact that he has all the power, he continually feels victimzed by the slightest challenge from anyone. ..."

That whiny note is so characteristic and SO annoying!

Leslie wrote: "Greg wrote: "... despite the fact that he has all the power, he continually feels victimzed by the slightest challenge from anyone. ..."

That whiny note is so characteristic and SO annoying!"

Absolutely!

I have finished now. I liked the ending (especially the way Selfer doesn't come out and tell the Galactics that Davidson is still alive and living on a deserted island!).

By coincidence, I came across my review of Death and the King's Horseman by Noble Laureate Wole Soyinka about colonization of Africa. It made me think how similar these two colonial efforts were - a bitter but accurate example of the fact that human nature doesn't really change. If Earth hadn't joined the Hainish federation, the people who think like Davidson would probably have decided that getting the wood was more important than some alien species & they would most likely have been a majority. Though intellectually I have known this facet of humanity for a long time, emotionally I am surprised and disappointed by it almost every time I come across it.

Leslie wrote: "I have finished now. I liked the ending (especially the way Selfer doesn't come out and tell the Galactics that Davidson is still alive and living on a deserted island!).

By coincidence, I came ac..."

Indeed Leslie!

I like the idea that the concept of murder has changed them and that there's no way to unlearn it, but even more, I liked the quiet decency in the profound conversations at the end with Selver and Lepennon as well as the revelation of the huge impact that Lyubov ultimately had with his reports and his seemingly ineffectual stand earlier.

The quiet humaneness in the face of misunderstandings and catalclysmic events remined me a little of the ending of Ender’s Game. There are some losses that cannot be fully recovered, in this case in the crossing of the idea of murder from dream time that cannot be taken back. But still within this partial brokenness, there is the possibility of humane action. And I loved the sort-of reconciliation Selver has with Lubyov's "ghost" in dream time - it made me cry actually.

And by the way, I really loved that play Death and the King's Horseman!!

Greg wrote: "I like the idea that the concept of murder has changed them and that there's no way to unlearn it, ..."

I came to the conclusion that a person who introduces a new act (such as murder) or idea is one that they called a god. What you said about not being able to unlearn it fits in with what they said about Selver not being able to return (I forget the exact phraseology). Clearly he can still be a dreamer but he cannot return the world to the way it was & in a sense it was Lubyov's plea to him to return that haunts Selver so much.

Leslie wrote: "Greg wrote: "I like the idea that the concept of murder has changed them and that there's no way to unlearn it, ..."

I came to the conclusion that a person who introduces a new act (such as murder..."

Yes, that's the conclusion I came to be by the end too. The meaning of "god" and several other terms confused me part-way through, but eventually it got a bit clearer and most things were eventually explained for the most part.