Never too Late to Read Classics discussion

The Red and the Black by Stendhal is a psychological novel published in 1830. This bildungsroman novel chronicles the attempts of a provincial young man to rise socially beyond his modest upbringing through a combination of talent, hard work, and hypocrisy.

The novel's full title Le Rouge et le Noir : Chronique du XIX siecle (The Red and the Black: A Chronicle of the 19th Century shows that, despite it being a psychological portrayal of a romantic protagonist, it is also an analytic, sociological satire of the French Social Order under the Bourbon Restoration.

One of the interpretations concerning the title The Red and The Black is that it was based on the two escape routes that are offered to the protagonist from his working-class poverty - that of the army (represented in Red, denoting the red uniform worn by Napoleon as General and First Consular) and the clergy (represented in Black). Another interpretation is that the title refers to the red and black roulette wheel indicating the risks taken by the protagonist. There is another theory that Red equates the Republican forces and Black equates the Church. None of these interpretations/theories, however, are conclusive proof of the author's intention in the choice of the title.

Marie-Henri Beyle (23 January 1783 - 23 March 1842), known by his pen name Stendhal, is a 19th century French author, best known for his works Le Rouge et le Noir (The Red and The Black, 1830) and La Chartreuse de Parme (The Charterhouse of Parma, 1839).

Stendhal is considered a foremost practitioner of realism. He was a clear-headed man with romantic passions. The fusion and the tension between these two sides are typical of Stendhal's novels which led to him being called a "Romantic Realist'. Stendhal is also highly regarded for his analytical and psychological portrayal of his characters.

He borrowed his pseudonym, Stendhal from the German city of Stendal, the birthplace of Johann Joachim Winckelmann, a famous art historian and archeologist of the time.

I read this last year. Very nice read.

That's encouraging, Gilbert. I'm looking forward to reading it.

I've read it three times!

Nice introduction, Piyangie. I plan to listen to the audiobook. I'm next on the list from the library, so I'll start when it comes in.

Rosemarie wrote: "I've read it three times!"

Wow, Rosemarie! That's high recommendation. :)

Kathy wrote: "Nice introduction, Piyangie. I plan to listen to the audiobook. I'm next on the list from the library, so I'll start when it comes in."

Thanks, Kathy. I was earlier planning to do the audio, but now decided on reading it on the kindle. This year is annoyingly a busy one, and I'm struggling with finding enough reading time. I'll be starting with one chapter a day at least.

I won't reread this one because I couldn't abide it the first time round. I read it 7 years ago and these were my thoughts https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I will definitely try to read this, it’s been on my list for a while now

Karin wrote: "I won't reread this one because I couldn't abide it the first time round. I read it 7 years ago and these were my thoughts https://www.goodreads.com/review/show..."

I'm sorry it didn't work for you, Karin.

PS wrote: "I will definitely try to read this, it’s been on my list for a while now"

Welcome, PS!

I will be joining the group but later this month. This as been on my TBR for a long time.

Welcome, Lorraine! I'll be starting a little late too. It's my first Stendhal, so looking forward to reading it.

Piyangie wrote: "Welcome, Lorraine! I'll be starting a little late too. It's my first Stendhal, so looking forward to reading it."

Same for me. First time. Looking forward exchanging with this group and you!

Aw, thanks. :) It's always nice to read with a group, so we get to see a book from so many different POVs.

Chapters 1-16
Julien, the main protagonist, is very ambitious and want to rise above his station as a carpenter's son. So far he seems to vacillate between what his heart is telling him and what his head thinks he should do. He even writes down plans for how to proceed in his relationships. His approach to (view spoiler)[Mme de Renal is almost funny - planning to take her hand, planning to act cold to her - then her reactions. (hide spoiler)]

I wrote an essay on Julien Sorel in my French lit class in third year university. I got a good grade on that one.

You probably had much to say about Julien. I'm excited to see how his ambitions work out.

"After the fall of Napoleon, every appearance of gallantry has been severely exiled from provincial etiquette. People are frightened of losing their jobs. All rascals look to the religious order for support, and hypocrisy has made firm progress even among the Liberal classes." Stendhal's Napolean worship is quite evident from this quotation from Chapter 7

Anyone reading (or read) this, can you please recommend me a good English translation? I'm reading the translation done by Horace B Samuel which is not to my liking. I fear I might not enjoy the book if I continue with it. I've only read the first 10 chapters so I can switch without much of an issue. TIA.

Piyangie wrote: "Anyone reading (or read) this, can you please recommend me a good English translation? I'm reading the translation done by Horace B Samuel which is not to my liking. I fear I might not enjoy the bo..."

I listened to the audio which used the translation of Lloyd C. Parks. I enjoyed his presentation.

Here's what Wikipedia says in regard to translations:
"Le Rouge et le Noir, Chronique du XIXe siècle (1830) was first translated into English ca. 1900; the best-known translation, The Red and the Black (1926) by C. K. Scott Moncrieff, has been, like his other translations, characterised as one of his "fine, spirited renderings, not entirely accurate on minor points of meaning . . . Scott Moncrieff's versions have not really been superseded."[11] The version by Robert M. Adams for the Norton Critical Editions series is also highly regarded; it "is more colloquial; his edition includes an informative section on backgrounds and sources, and excerpts from critical studies."[12] Other translators include Margaret R. B. Shaw (as Scarlet and Black for Penguin Classics, 1953), Lowell Blair (Bantam Books, 1959), Lloyd C. Parks (New York, 1970), Catherine Slater (Oxford World's Classics, first published 1991), and Roger Gard (Penguin Classics, 2002).

The 2006 translation by Burton Raffel for the Modern Library edition generally earned positive reviews, with Salon.com saying, "[Burton Raffel's] exciting new translation of The Red and the Black blasts Stendhal into the twenty-first century." Michael Johnson, writing in The New York Times, said, "Now 'The Red and the Black' is getting a new lease on life with an updated English-language version by the renowned translator Burton Raffel. His version has all but replaced the decorous text produced in the 1920s by the Scottish-born writer-translator C.K. Scott-Moncrieff".[13]"

Thanks, Kathy, for the information. It's quite useful.

I have read the first 20 chapters and like the book so far. I find this is easy to read but that it is difficult for me to get attached to any of the characters. I am also under the impression (view spoiler)[ that Stendhal is not a fan of women. Not anything special but a feeling. Maybe I am missing something? Will see. (hide spoiler)]

I feel exactly the same, Lorraine. I thought that might be due to the translation. But then again, I assume that you are reading in French, and if so, it's Stendhal's writing which distant me from the novel and not the translation.

Piyangie wrote: "I feel exactly the same, Lorraine. I thought that might be due to the translation. But then again, I assume that you are reading in French, and if so, it's Stendhal's writing which distant me from ..."

Yes, I am reading it in French. I agree with you that Stendhal' writing style may keep us distant from the characters. I am also trying to put some words arount Julien character. I have problems defining him...

The female characters in La Chartreuse de Parme/The Charterhouse of Parma are more fully developed and play a larger role. The main character, Felice del Dongo, is not like Julien either.
It's my favourite Stendhal book.

Rosemarie wrote: "The female characters in La Chartreuse de Parme/The Charterhouse of Parma are more fully developed and play a larger role. The main character, Felice del Dongo, is not l..."

Thank you Rosemarie. It puts things in perspective as Stendhal writing style.

Lorraine wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "I feel exactly the same, Lorraine. I thought that might be due to the translation. But then again, I assume that you are reading in French, and if so, it's Stendhal's writing which..."

In that case, there is no point in switching the translation. I'll stick to the same. It looks as if The Charterhouse of Parma is the better of the two. Stendhal's frivolous treatment of women in this is annoying.

Rosemarie wrote: "I wrote an essay on Julien Sorel in my French lit class in third year university. I got a good grade on that one."

Rosemarie, can you share a bit of your essay on Julien Sorel? I am trying to better understand this character...

It has been a long time, but the gist is that he wants to improve his standing above his modest beginnings. He's also very young and good-looking, which makes him appeal to women. I'm not sure if he's aware of that, since he is so young.
Does this help? The children's mother(I've forgotten her name) is married to a man much older than she is. It was probably a marriage of convenience, and Julien probably sees it that way.
Most women had very little control over their lives in those times, especially married women.

I am at chapter 18, second book. Do not read till you have finish that chapter. (view spoiler)[ Cannot stop myself looking at the ceiling... *sigh* *sigh*
'And you no longer love me, and I adore you! Julien told her (Mathilde) one day…’
Just a little further…
‘His deeply candid, and totally stupid, remark changed everything in an instant. Certain of being loved, Mathilde utterly despised him.’
I am getting too old for this kind of story…😊 or there is no more romantic in me 😊 Here I am hoping there is not another twenty chapters of this kind of stuff! (hide spoiler)]

I finish the book today. Except for the 'strong emotions' of some characters, that are probably associated with this style or period of writing, I did enjoy most of it. Enough to read the book recommended by Rosemarie, La Chartreuse de Parme. I found the last chapters where quite interesting. And some sentences were funny. Like (view spoiler)[ ‘’Count Altamira told me that Danton, the night before he was to die, said in a rough voice: ‘How odd: the verb ‘’to guillotine’’ can’t be conjugated in all the tenses. You can say ‘’I will be guillotined, you will be guillotined,’’ but you can’t say ‘’I have been guillotined.’’ ‘ (hide spoiler)]

Lorraine, I like the spoiler.

I'm glad you enjoyed the book.

Glad you enjoyed the book, Lorraine. I'm still in the last chapters of book 1. The story is picking up, although I'm still confused as to Julien's character.

I'm also near the end of book one and finding Julien both intriguing and annoying at the same time.

Shoshana wrote: "I'm also near the end of book one and finding Julien both intriguing and annoying at the same time."

Good description of Julien.

Shoshana wrote: "I'm also near the end of book one and finding Julien both intriguing and annoying at the same time."

Quite agree with you. I've started reading Part 2. This time I'm taking some audio assistance. Just needed to speed up things. :)

Finally finished. I feel relieved! I liked the premises of the story, but the story wasn't too interesting. It was altogether melodramatic!

Especially towards the end!

Exactly, Rosemarie!