Reading 1001 discussion

Nearly half-way there! In this section, we have left Harlowe Place to Mrs Sinclair’s house or the place of Clarissa’s “captivity”. Well, until she disappears suddenly, as we are learning from Lovelace in Letter 228…

1. In this section, we get more acquainted with Lovelace’s best friend, John Belford. Based on the contents of his letters (143, 169, 172, 189, 192, 222), how would you characterise Mr Belford? Rake or fake?

2. Throughout this section, all the protagonists are trying as best as they can, given their respective resources, to keep some information secret and to obtain more information about the others. Lovelace, in this respect, is in a position of control, except that he is very wary of Anna Howe. Why would that be? Are his fears justified?

3. On several occasions, Anna Howe is provided advice to Clarissa with respect to what she should be doing with regards to Clarissa. At times, Anna is suggesting that Clarissa should marry Lovelace, while she later recommends that Clarissa avoids him. Is Anna Howe’s advice always consistent with the information she has or is she just anticipating what might happen? Do you think that her changing opinion is causing some confusion in Clarissa?

4. It is gradually becoming clear that not everything is kosher about Mrs Sinclair and her nieces. Why do you think Lovelace took pains to ensure that these ladies thought the marriage had been held between him and Clarissa? Who do you think that Mrs Sinclair and her nieces really are?

5. We are also introduced to the character of Captain Tomlinson aka Patrick McDonald. Lovelace, in his letters to Belford, informs us that the Captain acts as an intermediary with Clarissa’s uncle in order to effect some form of reconciliation with her family. How genuine do you think these actions are? Do you think that they would have a chance of succeeding, given the acrimony that existed between Clarissa and her family at the time when she “left” Harlowe Place?

1. John Belford is a reformed rake. He is constantly admonishing Lovelace for his designs on Clarissa (and his thoughts about raping Anna Howe and her mother!) He tries to moderate Lovelace's schemings and appeals to his better nature. He disapproves of Lovelace's actions but doesn't give up on his friend and continues to advise him.
2. Lovelace wants to isolate Clarissa and fears that Anna knows too much about his character so he intercepts Anna's letters to Clarissa and learns that she is planning to escape. But he has such a poor view of Clarissa's resolve that he doesn't believe she has the gumption to do so.

3. Anna is much less predictable than the steadfast Clarissa and so her advice is often contradictory. She is a good contrast to Clarissa, who is always eager to please everyone else. Anna loves a good argument with her mother! Her advice to Clarissa to marry Lovelace is given because she is worried about Clarissisa's reputation, but when Clarissa tells her what Lovelace has done she implores her to have an escape plan.
4. I suspect that Mrs Sinclair is not who she says she is and is running a "house of ill repute" with the neices being two of her employees. Lovelace has been intimate with both the girls. I can't figure out if they have ceased their normal activities because Lovelace is paying them to do so, or they somehow carry on as normal without Clarissa suspecting anything much.
5. Captain Tomlinson fools Clarissa into believing that there is a chance of reconciliation with her uncle. But that would be very unlikely, especially as we assume that he doesn't know her uncle at all. It is another Lovelace ruse to keep Clarissa under his control.

well it's been a while since I finished this one but here we go:

1) Belford is one of those 'good guys' who is not an abuser himself but is not steadfast or looking closely enough to identify and stop being friends with the worst guy ever,

2) Agreed with Pip, he knows Anna knows enough and may also be inclined to directly interfere otherwise.

3) I think Anna's advice is consistent with what she knows at the time and it shifts as she gains more information, especially about how messed up the situation Lovelace has put Clarissa in truly is.

4) Whelp I know how this turns out so won't say explicitly but will say I was not surprised.

5) Not sincere at all. And like Pip I had immediately suspected he was part of Lovelace's nonsense. I think this is one of the things that adds such a horror (or rather terror?) aspect to the book: how many people are willing to be confederates to a man abducting and abusing a woman either because they were paid or they believe he is justified.

1. In this section, we get more acquainted with Lovelace’s best friend, John Belford. Based on the contents of his letters (143, 169, 172, 189, 192, 222), how would you characterise Mr Belford? Rake or fake?

I agree with Pip that he is a reformed Rake, however, one assumes that he is a reformed rake when it comes to his best friend's motives and actions but we are not altogether sure that his own actions have been reformed. He appears to be sitting around waiting for his uncle to pass away so he can collect his inheritance although he does appear to care about him somewhat.

2. Throughout this section, all the protagonists are trying as best as they can, given their respective resources, to keep some information secret and to obtain more information about the others. Lovelace, in this respect, is in a position of control, except that he is very wary of Anna Howe. Why would that be? Are his fears justified?

In that Clarissa often does not act until she has gotten a letter from Anna supporting her thinking, it does justify Lovelace's distrust of Anna. Also, Anna has a fiercely independent streak in addition to knowing too much about Lovelace's past, so Lovelace realizes that he can not manipulate Anna the way he can most woman. If he can not manipulate her, he makes the obvious choice to manipulate her letters.

3. On several occasions, Anna Howe is provided advice to Clarissa with respect to what she should be doing with regards to Clarissa. At times, Anna is suggesting that Clarissa should marry Lovelace, while she later recommends that Clarissa avoids him. Is Anna Howe’s advice always consistent with the information she has or is she just anticipating what might happen? Do you think that her changing opinion is causing some confusion in Clarissa?

Yes, Anna's letters are often a product of her frantic confused thinking about what Clarissa should do given the circumstances and also Anna sometimes gets new information that shifts her thinking. Anna knows that the only thing that will save Clarissa's reputation is to be married regardless of the fact that she would have to marry a Lovelace. However, when Anna considers the option of Clarissa saving her reputation but marrying a monster she will careen over to advising her to simply run. It will not save her reputation, but it may save her mind.

4. It is gradually becoming clear that not everything is kosher about Mrs Sinclair and her nieces. Why do you think Lovelace took pains to ensure that these ladies thought the marriage had been held between him and Clarissa? Who do you think that Mrs Sinclair and her nieces really are?

I think that Mrs Sinclair and her nieces provide a service to upper class men. It appears as if there is a fine line between an out and out bordello and "a bad house". Mrs. Sinclair needs to keep her reputation intact in order to attract her level of clientele but nevertheless, her house is not one in which Clarissa should be staying to preserve her reputation.

5. We are also introduced to the character of Captain Tomlinson aka Patrick McDonald. Lovelace, in his letters to Belford, informs us that the Captain acts as an intermediary with Clarissa’s uncle in order to effect some form of reconciliation with her family. How genuine do you think these actions are? Do you think that they would have a chance of succeeding, given the acrimony that existed between Clarissa and her family at the time when she “left” Harlowe Place?

I agree with Pip and Amanda, I believe that Lovelace is just up to another one of his intricate manipulations although the way the letters are written (to date) one can not 100% tell how exactly that works. Tomlinson appears to be quite the gentleman, why is he helping Lovelace. It just seems to get uglier and uglier.

1. Belford seems to be a good guy he is trying to protect Clarissa and discourage Lovelace's plans.

2. Anna is smart and can provide Clarissa information that would put Lovelace in a bad light and yes he is right to be worried.

3. I think Anna is working with what she knows. I think it could be confusing to Clarissa but Clarissa is pretty determined to do what she wants.

4. So that he would have witnesses to support his side of the story.

5. I cannot see a reconciliation being anywhere on the cards at the moment.

1. John Belford seems like an older and wiser fellow with many years of wild living behind him. He reminds me of a few of my friends, so I liked him so far. I am not sure how trustworty I would think him to be, but he at least knows a lot about how the real world works in trems of money, politics, and all the messier sides of life that many pampered, sheltered aristocrats can ignore or use money to avoid. He reminds me a bit of Lord Merlin, a similar aging rogue (from Love ina Cold Climate, by Nancy Mitford) who can help people because he knows from experience how best to help where immorality is involved.

2. Anna ia not directly under Lovelace's control, and she has Clarissa's ear the way no one else has. Anna already does not really like Lovelace, and the way Clarissa treats Lovelace is far from the gratitude and budding romantic love he was hoping for after his successful rescue of his fair maiden. He did also have some more nefarious motives and Anna seems like she sees through him, while Clarissa is just a bit clueless, entitled and snooty, albeit a very virtuous and pretty girl.

3. Anna's advice bounces around with her own moods and whims. She has her own unwelcome suitor, so when she is deaing with him, her attitude about Clarissa's situation is biased accordingly. I think she also like a high drama story, and wants to see the next chapter in her friend's drama now that the escape/kidnapping/?? is over as the story has devolved into Clarissa whinig about Lovelace without any new plot action.

4. They are clearly confederates with Lovelace in some involved plot, part of his idea of testing the virtues of his fiance, ruining her family, etc. They were a but clumsy in their roles, at first, and if Clarissa was smarter or more streetwise and alert to her surroundings they might have messed up the whole game.

5. Clarissa's family has no interest in patching things up with her. If they get her back under their power they could have her committed as insane, or marry her off privately and illegally, keeping her prisoner as they threatened to do until her husband had sybdued her sufficiently. To my modern sense she seems so sadly brainwashed in they way she refuses to wash her hands of her evil family completely and find herself a lawyer and a safe non-family situation in London.

1. In this section, we get more acquainted with Lovelace’s best friend, John Belford. Based on the contents of his letters (143, 169, 172, 189, 192, 222), how would you characterise Mr Belford? Rake or fake?

He seems like he might not be a real rake in the sense of the word. I simply do not understand Lovelace wanting to ruin Clarissa.

2. Throughout this section, all the protagonists are trying as best as they can, given their respective resources, to keep some information secret and to obtain more information about the others. Lovelace, in this respect, is in a position of control, except that he is very wary of Anna Howe. Why would that be? Are his fears justified?
Anne Howe is a very independent thinker and not easily taken in by characters like Lovelace and of course the friendship between Clarissa and Anna would upset Lovelace.

3. On several occasions, Anna Howe is provided advice to Clarissa with respect to what she should be doing with regards to Clarissa. At times, Anna is suggesting that Clarissa should marry Lovelace, while she later recommends that Clarissa avoids him. Is Anna Howe’s advice always consistent with the information she has or is she just anticipating what might happen? Do you think that her changing opinion is causing some confusion in Clarissa?

I think that Anna is using two different responses; one response (marry him) is because of the compromised situation that Clarissa has ended up in without being able to get away, but if she can get away, then she should avoid marrying him.

4. It is gradually becoming clear that not everything is kosher about Mrs Sinclair and her nieces. Why do you think Lovelace took pains to ensure that these ladies thought the marriage had been held between him and Clarissa? Who do you think that Mrs Sinclair and her nieces really are?
I think they are people who live a life more on the bawdy side of things as they are compatriots of Lovelace. And perhaps he wanted them to spread rumors about the marriage so that word would get back to Clarissa's family. I really detest Lovelace. He is so manipulative and false.

5. We are also introduced to the character of Captain Tomlinson aka Patrick McDonald. Lovelace, in his letters to Belford, informs us that the Captain acts as an intermediary with Clarissa’s uncle in order to effect some form of reconciliation with her family. How genuine do you think these actions are? Do you think that they would have a chance of succeeding, given the acrimony that existed between Clarissa and her family at the time when she “left” Harlowe Place?

I'm not sure that there can be a reconciliation as long as the brother continues to stir up things but one could only hope that the family would start having a conscience and want to have Clarissa return to the family.

I am now done with letter 24 volume 5 and still can hardly tolerate this book. Lovelace’s behaviors are horrible and his callous treatment and buckets of lies are maddening. Clarissa and her vapers drive me crazy also. Though I do suppose it is very hard for a female to break free in this time period of history. What really is upsetting is that every one seems to want to believe Lovelace and suspect Clarissa as being at fault. How very, very aggravating.

Plus, her family assumes she is lying about everything without even looking into the issues AND everyone, even her best friend Miss Howe, thinks the solution to the problem is to have her marry her abuser and rapist. And the really big problem is I still have over 300 pages to read!

Gail wrote: "Plus, her family assumes she is lying about everything without even looking into the issues AND everyone, even her best friend Miss Howe, thinks the solution to the problem is to have her marry her..."

Oh yes, that is all true so now I have even more reason to fume.

Reading this book made me revisit some of the Shakespeare plays where some of the characters play tricks on other characters in order to gain a spouse. In those plays the story is usually cast as funny or at least entertaining, and 'boy gets girl' endings seem like happy endings. But in this novel, that trope seems to be being recast as a much more sinister scenario, and the characters in this novel that are similar to the clever rogues of Shakespear no longer seem like good guys at all.

Jamie wrote: "Reading this book made me revisit some of the Shakespeare plays where some of the characters play tricks on other characters in order to gain a spouse. In those plays the story is usually cast as f..."

I think in the case of a play, the flow of the story is faster so you can roll with the tricks. Clarissa goes on and on.

Kristel wrote: "Jamie wrote: "Reading this book made me revisit some of the Shakespeare plays where some of the characters play tricks on other characters in order to gain a spouse. In those plays the story is usu..."

She definitely does. And her obsession with maintaining her purity and honor starts to seem either pathological, or maybe a way to gain power or leverage over her situation in a way sje thinks will gain her sympathy. As a modern reader I found her harder and harder to relate to sympathetically by this point in the novel.

Jamie wrote: "Kristel wrote: "Jamie wrote: "Reading this book made me revisit some of the Shakespeare plays where some of the characters play tricks on other characters in order to gain a spouse. In those plays ..."

Purity and honor were more important to women during this time period but I also think that the author being male is part of the problem with Clarissa's character.

I also remind myself that in this day and age the serial book was the soap opera or mini series of today. This definitely has a soap opera feel.

1. In this section, we get more acquainted with Lovelace’s best friend, John Belford. Based on the contents of his letters (143, 169, 172, 189, 192, 222), how would you characterise Mr Belford? Rake or fake?

He is a fake rake! Clarissa’s description suggests that he is younger than the others and that makes me think he has been trying to impress Lovelace and maybe pretending to be more depraved than he actually is. Every man who meets Clarissa (the ladies of Mrs. Sinclair’s house don’t react to her the same way) immediately respects her and wants nothing to do with her corruption. Belford, I believe, tried to discourage Lovelace even before he met her.

2. Throughout this section, all the protagonists are trying as best as they can, given their respective resources, to keep some information secret and to obtain more information about the others. Lovelace, in this respect, is in a position of control, except that he is very wary of Anna Howe. Why would that be? Are his fears justified?

Yes his fears are justified! I don’t know who Anna’s informants are, but she finds out EVERYTHING, so he’s right to be wary of her. He correctly surmises that Anna is a little less naïve than Clarissa and therefore catches on to him earlier than Clarissa would herself.

3. On several occasions, Anna Howe is provided advice to Clarissa with respect to what she should be doing with regards to Clarissa. At times, Anna is suggesting that Clarissa should marry Lovelace, while she later recommends that Clarissa avoids him. Is Anna Howe’s advice always consistent with the information she has or is she just anticipating what might happen? Do you think that her changing opinion is causing some confusion in Clarissa?

I think Anna is giving the best advice based on the information she has at any point. She also realizes that, once Clarissa has run off with Lovelace, the only thing she can do to save her reputation is to marry him. Anna also knows there is no prospect of a reconciliation with the Harlowe family, whereas Clarissa continues to hope for that. At one point Anna says, “Wicked as the man is, I’m afraid he must be your lord and master.” As she discovers more about him, she changes her tune and realizes that Clarissa must escape if she wants any hope of happiness. I don’t think Clarissa bases much of her decisions on what Anna tells her. If so, she would have insisted upon her rights to her grandfather’s estate and left her stupid family. Or, after being kidnapped by Lovelace, she would have insisted on an immediate marriage. Both of these were advised by Anna.

4. It is gradually becoming clear that not everything is kosher about Mrs Sinclair and her nieces. Why do you think Lovelace took pains to ensure that these ladies thought the marriage had been held between him and Clarissa? Who do you think that Mrs Sinclair and her nieces really are?

I’m not really sure why he wants them, in particular, to believe they are married. It’s not about scruples or ethics (see below). He does want witnesses who will attest to the fact that Clarissa acknowledged that they were married – e.g., the ladies, his fellow rakes. I suspect that Mrs. Sinclair and her nieces are running a house of ill repute (and that was confirmed a few letters ago by Anna).

5. We are also introduced to the character of Captain Tomlinson aka Patrick McDonald. Lovelace, in his letters to Belford, informs us that the Captain acts as an intermediary with Clarissa’s uncle in order to effect some form of reconciliation with her family. How genuine do you think these actions are? Do you think that they would have a chance of succeeding, given the acrimony that existed between Clarissa and her family at the time when she “left” Harlowe Place?

I don’t believe there is any attempt at reconciliation – it is an elaborate ploy of Lovelace to get Clarissa to marry him or at least pretend that they are married. Clarissa would do anything to reconcile but, based on their letters and actions, the family wants nothing to do with her and would not extend an olive branch (unless she were openly married and a wealthy and important lady. Then, maybe, her brother and sister would try to reconcile.