The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of March 16th - March 22nd, we are reading Chapter One, p. 1 - 10
I: The Egyptian Woman of the book - Cleopatra: A Life by Stacy Schiff.

The first week's reading assignment is:

Week One - March 16th - March 22nd
Chapter One, p. 1 - 10
I: The Egyptian Woman

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on March 16th

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.

This weekly thread will be opened up on March 16th.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Jose.
Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Stacy Schiff

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed. Since we are discussing the same time period and the same people will be discussed in this book as in the Liberation Trilogy - please utilize those three glossary parts. They will be very helpful to you and will provide a wealth of knowledge.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...--

by Stacy Schiff

Directions on how to participate in book discussions and how to follow the t's and c's - look at directives given for the discussion Landslide - What Do I Do Next?

I will modify these directives as we go along but for now utilize the information here.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

Everyone, for the week of March 16th - March 22nd, 2015, we are reading Chapter One - I - The Egyptian Woman.

The first week’s reading assignment is:

Week One/b> - March 16th - March 22nd, 2015
Chapter One: I - The Egyptian Woman - pages 1 - 10

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter 1: ! - The Egyptian Woman

Cleopatra is probably the most famous women in history and lots of stories have been written about her. She was the last of the Ptolemaic dynasty, who had ruled in Egypt since the death of Alexander the Great. She was mistress to two famous Romans, Julius Caesar and Mark Antony, and bore children to both of them. There are no Egyptian accounts of her life, and the Roman ones, both contemporaneous and those written later, are not very flattering. She was both Greek and a woman, and the Romans looked down on both types. This book is an attempt to separate fact from fiction and flesh out the life of an extraordinary person.

Folks, we are kicking off the first week of the Cleopatra discussion - we welcome you to this discussion which will last for a few months. There is no rush and we are happy to have all of you with us. I look forward to reading your posts in the months ahead

The author says “It is not difficult to understand why Caesar became history, Cleopatra a legend.” I think part of this is because Caesar wrote his own story and we only know of Cleopatra mainly from the writings of Romans, who basically disapproved of her. Any thoughts?

As a Roman - Caesar was part of their heritage - whereas Cleopatra was not - a foreigner probably from their stand point. And certainly in terms of the station that women had at that time; for a woman like Cleopatra to see herself not only on equal footing but in ways superior must have really set them off.

Odd that many saw her as Egyptian and she wasn't.

Vicki wrote: "The author says “The author says “It is not difficult to understand why Caesar became history, Cleopatra a legend.” I think part of this is because Caesar wrote his own story and we only know of Cleopatra mainly from the writings of Romans, who basically disapproved of her. Any thoughts? "
I agree with your assessment of why Caesar is history and Cleopatra is legend. All we know of Cleopatra came from others. We have nothing from her own hand. Nor do we have much about her written by her own people.

I certainly understand that statement. I am sure that from the beginning, the authors of her story embellished and that has continued to spiral.

I like this quote about legends and kind of sums up the idea:

“That's how it is with legends. The greater they sound, the more must've got left out.”
― Tim Tharp, Knights of the Hill Country

BTW - I was interested to see any coins with Cleopatra's face on it. (Thanks for the pics in the glossary, Jose and Bentley) I also came across this site that shows some pictures of what Cleopatra may have looked like based on the coins. Not sure how accurate but I can see how they got there:

(Source: Reno Coin Club)

by Tim Tharp

Teri what an interesting post - make sure to also add that to the glossary. We do not want to lose that one. I am not sure the coin maker like her that much (sad smile). The sculpture was remarkably better.

Rosella you make some good points.

Folks, there are a lot of folks participating in the reading and discussion of Cleopatra. You might want to introduce yourself briefly and tell us what sparked your interest in this book and what has surprised you so far - your first thoughts.

I am Bentley - founder of the group and we wanted to spark some interest in our Ancient History offerings and thought that this book about a strong and powerful woman from the Ancient past might be just the book to get things going. I do not think that we will be disappointed in Schiff's presentation of this enigmatic and powerful leader that we have in Cleopatra. One thing that has surprised me and probably others is that Cleopatra was not Egyptian.

I am Teri and one of the assistant moderators here at The History Book Club. I have always had an interest in Egypt and archaeology. Along with that, I've been enamored with the Hollywood version of Cleopatra.

I am looking forward to reading this book, as I like the author's writing and how he is putting the scene in the proper context, reminding the reader that names and places have changed since Cleopatra's days.

Hi, my name is Samanta. I am an admin in training here on HBC. I have loved all things Egyptian since I was a kid (especially mythology) so I was thrilled when I found this book in my public library (a rare occurence :D). Looking forward to reading and discussing with you all.

Thanks for joining in Rosella, Teri and Samanta. I've been interested in ancient Rome for quite a while, mostly in the late Republic/early Empire period. So many fascinating characters. Cicero in particular left so many writings and letters; what a shame we don't have any from early 44 BC when Cleopatra was in Rome.

Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Clever women, Euripides had warned hundreds of years earlier, were dangerous."

So we know Cleopatra was a woman ahead of her time, knowing and doing things that a woman should not do in those times. Schiff writes that she was well "versed in politics, diplomacy, and governance" and that she was "fluent in nine languages; silver-tongued and charismatic". If we look at all that, she seems and amazing woman. But we must not forget that politics in those times incluided intrigue and murders and Cleopatra was no stranger to that, having committed various types of...family-cide to stay on top.
The sources we have at our disposal today, all depict her as a vile woman who used her sexuality to gain what she wants and thus seducing poor men who couldn't help themselves (must have been brain-damaged or something) because no woman could be that smart. :D
So...if there are no existing accounts written by Cleopatra herself, we cannot see the other side of the story but there is also no real proof that what was written about her was not all truth. Are the unflattering accounts written because the Romans were affraid of her brain and power or was she, after all, a mixture of everything? Also, were those accounts written in order to besmirch Cleopatra's character so much that she would not be remembered? If so, tough luck! She survived them all and some more. Incredible woman, no matter what.

Hi, I am Karen and I am interested in all things History. I was a history major in college, but we did not have any courses offered In Ancient History, so I have some to catching up to do. I have had this book in my Kindle Library for quite a while, so I was glad to see this book for a group read.

What I also find amuzing and hypocritical are the accusations of immorality the Romans laid on her....the murders, the seductions, the lovers, the excesiveness...as if not-so-hidden murders and the ones in plain sight, political weddings that were over even before they began, excessive eating and orgies (Bacchanalia...anyone?) were not a common occurence in Rome?

We need to remember that it was in Octavian's best interests to portray Cleopatra as an evil seductress so that his war on Antony would appear to be war on a foreign queen and not really on another Roman. The Romans were justifiably weary of civil wars.

Hello all. I'm Donna. This book has been sitting on my shelf for awhile so I'm glad to have the opportunity to read and discuss it with others. Like Bentley, I had no idea Cleopatra was not Egyptian.

Hi everybody. My name is Theresa and I am interested in various subjects of history. I minored in Women and Gender Studies in college and find biographies on Female historical figures very interesting. I have also had this book for a couple of years and this is a good opportunity to read it!

Vicki wrote: "The author says “It is not difficult to understand why Caesar became history, Cleopatra a legend.” I think part of this is because Caesar wrote his own story and we only know of Cleopatra mainly fr..."

This quote stuck out for me as well. I just remember thinking isn't Caesar a legend as well. I was hoping to get more clarification on what makes an historical figure a legend.

Hello, everyone. My name is Francie and I am an Admin(T) here on HBC. I've always been fascinated by Cleopatra, such an intriguing woman in history. I've also had this book on my shelves for a while and look forward to all the discussions ahead.

Theresa wrote: "Vicki wrote: "The author says “It is not difficult to understand why Caesar became history, Cleopatra a legend.” I think part of this is because Caesar wrote his own story and we only know of Cleop..."

There is a lot written about Caesar so at the very least there are quite a few primary sources by the Romans and about the Romans - not so much for Cleopatra.

The word legend means and is defined as follows: - a non historical or unverifiable story handed down by tradition from earlier times and popularly accepted as historical.

So you can see that Caesar does not fit the definition because of so many primary sources whereas Cleopatra does.

I thought it was interesting that the author said Plutarch's biography of Mark Antony was mostly about Cleopatra. I haven't read it yet, but I should.

by Plutarch

Text available here.

The author said in the videos posted that there were very very few primary sources at all for Cleopatra - Plutarch was one of the few - unlike Caesar being Roman where there were many Roman primary sources which were verifiable.

And the Plutarch one seems to be a bit over the top. He makes Cleopatra out to be irresistible like one of the Sirens - it is a wonder it was not suggested to Antony to put wax in his ears to block out her irresistible voice (smile). It was not a primary source that I would feel is totally reliable. Even Plutarch seemed to enhance the legend status with his rendition.

It is not very long Vicki, I think you will see what the author meant. Thank you for adding the link for folks to judge for themselves. Let us know what you think of the Plutarch rendition - did you feel that it was almost Homer like?

Welcome Laura, Francie, Teresa, Donna, Samanta, Karen and everyone else who has posted - we are delighted you are joining the discussion.

So far, my knowledge of Cleopatra is limited to Shakespeare and the mini-series "Rome". I'm looking forward to this read.

Welcome Chris. While I enjoyed HBO's Rome, I don't think it was very historically accurate re Cleopatra. Particularly the part about Caesar not fathering Caesarion.

Really a great first chapter. I too did not realize that Cleopatra was Greek Macedonian and not Egyptian. And it is interesting to note the truth that often strong women leaders are portrayed as the temptress.

Also now I've got to re-read Shakespeare to get his views on her also.

William Shakespeare

Samanta wrote: "What I also find amuzing and hypocritical are the accusations of immorality the Romans laid on her....the murders, the seductions, the lovers, the excesiveness...as if not-so-hidden murders and the..."

Hi everyone, I'm Jim. Samanta makes a good point. The Romans, like us, were human after all. They admired strait-laced, honest, hardworking, patriotic heroes of their legendary past even though they themselves often failed to measure up to such lofty standards. They probably projected onto Cleopatra many of their darker sexual and power hungry fantasies. However Romans felt a genuine fear that what they identified as the emotionalism and self-indulgence of the East would eventually undermine traditional Roman values. I think they were psychologically confused and hypocritical--but no more so than we are today.

Hi all, I'm Kacy. I've majored in History with a Gender Studies minor. I've always been interested by stories of powerful women in history but, aside from Plato, Aristotle, Euripides, and some Biblical History, my knowledge of the ancient world is quite lacking. I was so excited about this book, I read ahead. Oops!

I highlighted this in Chapter 1:

"We do not know if Cleopatra loved either Antony or Caesar, but we do know that she got each to do her bidding. From the Roman point of view she 'enslaved' them both. Already it was a zero-sum game: a woman's authority spelled a man's deception."

Already, it's clear that Cleopatra was clever with a strong grasp of human psychology--finding what made these men tick and using it to her advantage.

I look forward to reading more, but am putting the book aside for a bit. I want to maintain a fresh perspective as each section comes up for discussion.

Welcome Jim and Kacy. It's so hard to know the truth about the relationships Cleopatra had with Caesar and Antony. Ancient sources seem to attribute Cleopatra with amazing seductive powers. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds in this book.

Hi I'm Helga and I love history. I was glad to see this book about Cleopatra included as an HBC selection. And like other readers was surprised that she was not Egyptian. This is a really great way to spark interest in Ancient History especially someone as legendary as Cleopatra. The pics of Cleopatra that Teri posted were a great addition to actually visualize her. Thank you for posting them. It will be interesting to read about her life and all the people that surrounded her life, especially Caesar and Marc Antony.

Greetings Helga, glad you joined us. Many, if not most, people think of Cleopatra as Egyptian rather than Macedonian Greek. It's not really surprising, considering that she was queen of Egypt.

One of the really interesting things about her was her command of languages. In addition to Egyptian, Latin and Greek, she spoke the languages of "Ethiopians, Troglodytes, Hebrews, Arabians, Syrians, Medes and Parthians," according to Plutarch. I had no idea that Troglodytes were a real people, but they lived in the desert along the African side of the Red Sea coast.

Plutarch

Bentley wrote: "Theresa wrote: "Vicki wrote: "The author says “It is not difficult to understand why Caesar became history, Cleopatra a legend.” I think part of this is because Caesar wrote his own story and we on..."

thanks Bentley. I didn't think of that. In that context legend makes sense.

You are welcome Theresa - glad to help

I'm Cary and I have only recently been participating in these group readings/discussions. I have had a huge interest in both Rome and Greece, and when this book discussion came up I could not resist. I am looking to gain a better understanding of who Cleopatra really was as she is to me one of the most mysterious of figures from that time.

Hi everyone, I am Cathy. I mostly read fiction, love historical fiction, and joined the HBC to bring a balance of non-fiction to my life. I was excited to see this selection because I was very interested in this book when it first came out, but some negative reviews on goodreads dissuaded me from reading it then. I am so glad to have picked it up with you now and am enjoying the author's very descriptive and vivid writing style. The first chapter really set the stage to make me excited to get into the details of Cleopatra's life.

Welcome, Cary and Cathy. I hope you enjoy the book and the discussion.

I can't help but wonder what ancient sources might have been destroyed when the Library of Alexandria was repeatedly burned in part or whole, not only by Caesar in 48 BC but also by Aurelian around 270 AD, the Christians in 391 and the Muslims around 642.

Hi! Christy checking in! I normally favor military history, 1812-1920 but I've seen this book before and thought it would be interesting, so I've jumped on!

Short chapter this week, I like his writing style so far.

Hi all. I'm Heather. I loved reading and writing about history. Special favorites include American and Ancient Egyptian history, so I was thrilled when this book came up for discussion.

From the perspective of a researcher, I don't envy the author's task here. It's hard enough to find the information you need in archives, but the library in Alexandria was lost.

I also found it interesting that unlike the Egyptians who sometimes tried to downplay or erase the memory of their female rulers (Queen Hatchepsut in the New Kingdom comes to mind) the Romans went out of their way to emphasize Cleopatra's influence as (Greek) Queen of Egypt on Roman leaders.

Hi I am Michael and I read many different types of books but mostly non-fiction and of those mostly biography and military history. I have been using the discussions on HBC to push me into topics I would not normally read as well as to have opportunity to discuss various aspects of the books. I am here mainly because I have not read about Cleopatra before. Looking forward to seeing what you all have to say about the book.

My favorite quote so far is found on page 4: "Men who came into contact with her seem to have lost their heads, or at least to have rethought their agendas."

Thanks for joining in, Christy, Heather and Michael. I should have introduced myself earlier. I'm very interested in Roman history, especially the period around the fall of the Republic. I was the moderator for most of the discussions for the Masters of Rome series; all of the books in the series are top-notch historical fiction.

It's interesting that Schiff starts her book describing the difficulties of untangling the truth about Cleopatra's life, given the sources. Many times such thoughts are left for the author's afterword. I think it's quite helpful knowing this at the beginning.

Masters of Rome series
by Colleen McCullough

Hi everyone! I recently joined the HBC, which has inspired me to read more & broaden my reading horizons. I tend to read mostly fiction, including historical, but will read almost anything if the author writes well. I have read only one other book about Cleopatra-The Memoirs of Cleopatra by Margaret George, which is Hist-Fic. I enjoyed it-how can one not be fascinated by the mother of all divas? Her luxurious, decadent lifestyle along with her relationship with two very prominent Roman men, is a lot more interesting than reading modern day tabloids. So far, I'm under the impression that this book will give more accurate details on Cleopatra's life - "I have not attempted to fill in the blanks, though on occasion I have corralled the possibilities." (p. 8)
by

Welcome, Rosa, hope you enjoy the conversation here. I'm guessing Cleopatra is the historical character who has the most fiction written about her.

Hi, I'm Melissa. I have read a few things about Cleopatra, most of it historical fiction. It's always nice to put some facts behind the story. I'm really enjoying the book so far. Favourite quote in chapter 1 (page 7 in my Kobo) is: "And in the absence of facts, myth rushes in, the kudzu of history." Trying to separate myth from fact, especially with ancient history, is a fascinating task. And the history of Cleopatra seems like a case study of the whole "the victors write the history" idea, which just adds more vines to be untangled. Really looking forward to the rest of the book.

Glad you joined in, Melissa. So true about victors writing the history.

Hi! My name is Whitney. I majored in history when I was at University. I took several courses in Ancient History, primarily Greece, but one in Egyptian Archaeology. I find it a fascinating period to study. I read this book a couple years ago and was very impressed with it. I have been wanting to reread it, so I was very happy to see it as a selection for this group. I am looking forward to reading everyone's posts.

I think what stands out to me is how quickly Schiff lets the reader know that a lot of what people think they know about Cleopatra is not true, or at least from biased sources. It makes me want to continue reading to discover what her real story is.

Welcome to the discussion, Whitney. I too think it's quite useful that Schiff starts the book detailing the difficulties of pinning down just what's true about Cleopatra's history.

Whitney,

I am another former history major. I have really enjoyed this group since I retired 3 years ago.

I read Cleopatra: A Lifea couple of years ago and have started a reread with this group. I think Stacy Schiff is a wonderful biographer. I also enjoyed her biography of Vera Nabokov,Vera.

by Stacy Schiff

Ann,

I am enjoying the book discussions and suggestions from this group. I haven't read any of Schiff's other books yet, but as I like her writing would be interested in reading other books by her. Thank you for the suggestion, I will check it out. I heard she has a new one coming out this year about the Salem Witch Trials, and would be very interested in that. I need to find out more about it.

The Salem Witch Trails - wow - fascinating subject!