Think [the box] ing discussion

Faith - a definition in respect to religion - "belief that is not based on proof"

I think a fair example of the difference between 'belief' and 'faith', is:

"Mere belief on the basis of evidence is not faith. To have faith involves an act of will. For example, many people saw Blondin walk across the gorge below Niagara Falls on a tightrope, and believed (on the basis of the evidence of their own eyes) that he was capable of carrying a man on his back safely across. But only his manager Harry Colcord had enough faith to allow himself to be carried."

Is faith in God something that comes from an act of will, or is it something that comes as a "gift" from God Himself?

ie. unless God chooses one to have faith, one can't choose to have faith..?
---

The Bible has writings that say:

2 Tim. 2:24-26
"The Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."

or in a more modern translation again,
"God's servant must not be argumentative, but a gentle listener and a teacher who keeps cool, working firmly but patiently with those who refuse to obey. You never know how or when God might sober them up with a change of heart and a turning to the truth, enabling them to escape the Devil's trap, where they are caught and held captive, forced to run his errands."

This suggests that all mankind is being blocked from "knowledge of the truth", by the Devil and only when God frees them...can they even see or know the truth and thus have faith..

Hebrews 12:2 "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith"

Romans 10:17 "faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ"

Romans 12:3 "in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you"

Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"

It seems clear to me that faith is something that is given, not chosen. Additionally it is something that is given in uneven amounts to different people. Both those points open a whole can of worms.

The bible itself has a chapter in Hebrews 11 which talks about faith.
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see", or "The fundamental fact of existence is that this trust in God, this faith, is the firm foundation under everything that makes life worth living. It's our handle on what we can't see."

Faith, in this instance, seems to me to be the necessary decision or requirement for enabling an explanation for meaning of Life.

In other words could it be said that faith in God is actually a rational choice to create meaning in one's life..? Truth does not come into it whatsoever. In fact Truth is irrelevant in discussing faith, in itself.

Hi, Tim --


Interesting ideas. Me, I don't interpret the Bible as literally as you seem to. If God "gives" faith to you, then he gives you the ability to rationally choose to have faith (or not).

On an ironic note, think of how people begin to "choose" faith in increasing numbers as they reach the twilight of life (or as they get the unfortunate news that they have a terminal disease).

Does God suddenly grant them "innate" faith then? It becomes wordplay at that point.

Hiya Newengland :) Ill just respond to one point you raised, then let others feel free to comment before i wade in again.

Taking the bible literally - i think this is a somewhat common argument raised.. i think that people generally use this incorrectly - my view is that some parts of the bible, as in any book, are meant to be taken literally, while some are stories or parables which clearly are not meant to be taken literally.

Thus i only use what i see as clear literal examples when discussing with real seriousness what is said in the bible. So i think that when talking about the (sometimes very real) problems of taking the bible literally, one has to provide real reason as to why each passage should or should not be taken literally if it is ambiguous. I dont think the passages i used below are ambiguous, do you?

Picking and choosing if something is literal only when it suits oneself is a real spanner in the works of reasonable discussion of what is written in the bible impo. Im not saying you are ;) I just wanted to be clear on that point. Cheers

Fair enough. To clarify my point, then, I'll say that when I read your Biblical passages and see in Romans, for example, that God "gives" us faith, and in Ephesians, for another example, that faith is a "gift of God," I conclude that God "gives" all of us -- and not just a select few -- the gift of faith.

Whether or not we choose to unwrap and use this gift is another thing entirely (and depending upon your viewpoint, perhaps of no account to God Himself).

But, like you, I'd be interested in others' takes...

i think i'm of the gift opinion
those moments when god has whispered to me
believe, love, trust, don't worry, pray
i couldn't manufacture it
it happened over time, slowly
as a result of hearing others of faith express their faith
when i asked (in prayer) for help
it came
and not before
but i couldn't ask before
god put people in my path who said
look, listen, try this little piece of faith
and broken i tried
and the gift came first as grace
and i was able to see grace and look for her
and remembered that in the darkest moment there was always grace
and grace granted me peace in turmoil and i began to have faith in grace
and began to see that grace was the gift but faith was the path and other people told me where they had found the path
where they had found faith
and when i looked there god whispered to me again and now i listen
and try to walk the path
i did not make any but the most minimal of choices
the only choice left it seemed

here little chicky chick have some nice little faith grain, here chicky chick

i couldn't resist
thanks for your kind words donna
i love the fois gras goose comment haha
gods got a shortage of pate hahahahaha

*chuckles* I like your comments guys.

The thing is, if one believes it is a gift, i assume ye mean a gift to all by the way.. i guess i read the below passages as meaning that it is not offered to all, even though that would seem the "right" or "fair" option.

My brother in law is a minister, he firmly believes that it is not offered to all, but that God chooses who to give it to. (election and predestination)

I think having faith can be a beautiful thing. I think it can also be an ugly thing. At the end of the day, as Donna says, it is personal choice, but that personal choice often comes through ones interpretation of what is being chosen to be believed in.

I have no problem whatsoever in someone choosing to have faith. I would rather it was a truly informed choice. I would rather it wasn't in a faith that whether they liked it or not meant that anyone not of that faith was wrong. I still think they should be able to make that choice.

Good thoughts newengland.

Where i am stumped is when someone like me, who once did believe they had that faith, knowing all i know (a lot) about this particular faith, does not in fact have or choose that faith...

Terrific metaphor, Donna, even though I've never tasted foie (nor gras for that matter). Am I missing something?

organized religion has a way of turning something quite lovely into a pig in a sequined dress and with smeared lipstick

(donna's goose has got me i think)

i stay away from churches, religious fanatics and indoctrinaires ordinary and extraordinaire

my beau who is very old testamenty but not at all dogmatic
and is very emotional in the coldest most reserved manner imaginable
and charismatic in the new testament way
did something to me
he made me want to have a deeper faith
i already had some but he wore his on his sleeve
without jamming it down anyone's throat

falling in love with him i found faith
sounds rather too romance novel i know but we are both of an age and suffered enough loss that that's not the case

if you don't have a boy or a girl who makes your heart flutter and who has been through the labryinth you have to get what comes to you through strangers on the net

tim, god's whispering through us to you
have ye tried praying lad?
on your knees mano au dieu
ask for the willingness to see
the willingness to hear
then open king james and read a psalm or two
or better yet, hebrews or corinthians

perhaps there will be something new there
stay well clear of brother in law dear cause he is offensive to thine ear

ye can't use your head to hear god, open your heart

I prefer disorganized religion. It's more of a comfort -- just like my desk at school.

Good jobs, Donna and Maureen. Living life is an act of faith.

I am partial to the poetic KJV Bible, too. My favorite books are Ecclesiastes, James, and the Song of Solomon.

some music

for charles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG7jEE...

S'il vous plait, qui est Charles?

I have always liked Edith Piaf and in particular that song.

Thank you Maureen for another heartfelt post.
I just want to clarify from my last post in this thread - I once did have this faith. In huge quantities. I mean hardcore. I have since rejected it*.

I like the analogy of a gift needing unwrapped. In my case, i guess then i unwrapped it, displayed it on my sleeve and then...it was no longer there after a time.

What i was wondering was why, if (and i 100% did have) i had faith, why would i then no longer have it? That doesn't make sense. Unless perhaps it was a choice. Choices can be seen in a different light. Some choices begat other choices and others until one has convinced oneself of whatever one making a choice about. (this is a little tricky to explain concisely, pardon me that i am not right now, tis rather late)


* "it" - Now this is where it may get more interesting but it is late and i dont have the wherewithall to write about "it" now.

mon amie
mon amour
mon arch nemisis
and twin

i'm provoking him as he provokes me

i've got to get spell check and i haven't a clue if my french is correct so i may have just called charles my swine
he is the difficult faith filled despairing man i have been in love with this past year

now, tim, as to choice
yes there is an element i admit, i think of choice
but you seem to be seeking the clarification in order to prove there is no god, nothing to base faith on

it can't be proven or disproven in my opinion until the end, resurection or no resurection

the mysterious moments in my life seem to allude to something more
and trust me there have been very few big god filled moments and troubles have been great
poverty
despair
violence and threat of violence
betrayal
neglect
abandonment
severe injury to loved ones
early death of two brothers
mental illness of a family member
estrangement
duplicity
drug abuse
alcoholism

all the 20th century blues writ large and seeking solace in poetry and art, loving beyond reason and getting my teeth kicked in for it

it's too depressing to think it's all random
and when i beleive something rejoices involuntarily
and it's not as simple as personal salvation
i don't want to say i've transcended the personal
but i've transcended the personal and denied it, and integrated it and 12 stepped it, and taken it to a movie and struck a deal with it

i don't see why you can't have your faith and lose it too and then have it again and lose it again and have it ad infinitum like the proverbial he loves me he loves me not daisy
isn't that basically the point of Kings and Chronicles?

just make sure you come up snake eyes when/if jesus descends from the heavens

(snake eyes is a good thing right?)

From my point of view, this is mostly semantics. Yes, of course, Faith comes from God, but you have to accept it. I truly believe that everyone receives the gift of Faith, but many reject it for various reasons. However, what about the people that live in places where they could hear of Christ? (I'm speaking from my Faith, btw.) What about them? Would God throw them forever into a lake of fire? *shrugs* I don't particularly see it as any of my business. It's their life, and their choice. Perhaps the God that I worshipped could be worshipped by a different name in some other part of the world, by people who know only that name. I wouldn't have a clue, and I don't really have an orientation on it, truth be told. I really think that's God's choice, and that if he had told us that, it would only lead to misinterpretation. I have faith and trust in my God, (and do not claim that at my age, I've never had any reason to doubt him yet, trust me, I've had reasons.) and believe that he truly does what is best for us. Based on my day-to-day life, I just try to live with as much compassion and charity as I can...I suppose that everything I've said comes more from my own centimentality than anything else, but hey...it's just...the way I work, I guess. I hope I didn't offend anyone, but if I did...sorry, I'm a bit outspoken when it comes to what I think.

By analogy, intelligence comes from God as much as faith but,...you have to choose to use it. Thus you can analyze and research and use logic and realize that the Bible is not an oracle or a "holy book" but like other books or compendiums of writings..written by men , no more or less inspired than many authors, poets or whatever. One can actually then, recognize the story of Gilgamesh or other stories, compare and contrast myths and stories of the first humans or the gods/god in many cultures and see that they are all no more accurate a depiction of nature and the universe ....

Well I was reading Romans this morning and decided to ask a question; i.e is faith given or a chosen... Wow, I did notice one persons remark about following God and wearing his faith on his sleeve and kinda walking away from God, I guess he meant living in the world. I to have done this,life piled up on me and I got so busy, and wrapped up in the passing of my brother and other things like a broken marriage that I stopped talking to God.
1. The question for me is did I then stop believing in Him, No, I was the one who walked away for what ever reason.
2. Did I at that point loose my Faith? No, I still believe in Jesus I just didn't want to live the way he wanted me to, I was mad at him, ( dare I say. )
3. Was my faith evident to others, No.
In my summation, most people do not understand faith and choose to cast it aside, reject it, because they feel a fool believing in something that can't be seen. The world we live in today demands proof, where Faith says just believe, if you are seeking God will increase your faith. My faith never left me it was always there, I just didn't want to listen.

Tim
I know you wrote this awhile ago, but the last part of your statement, That its just a way for us to create meaning in our life?
It just surprised me that you would end it with that question, especially as you quoted so many great passage from the bible. I believe Faith is a gift given to those of us who God knows will go and increase the gospel of Jesus Christ. Just like the parable of the servants who were given money, some used it wisely others not so much. God knows who to bless with faith, who will use it wisely.
I believe we should all pray for increased faith, but there are few who will pick up the cross and walk with it. Without faith how far will you belief take you without belief you can not have faith.