Hugo & Nebula Awards: Best Novels discussion

Here is the spoiler free discussion for Ender’s Game

Thanks, Kate for starting it!

Thanks. Glad you popped up because . . . Problem, it will not let me post the "All the Birds in the Sky" threads. I should have been able to post three in a row without interference, but it kept giving me an unspecified error on this one.

And it wasn't capatcha or whatever it is called. It offered me no pictures of anything. Just 1 "error prohibited this topic from being saved: Please try again later." I did try later. Same message

You wanna try?

I'll create them tomorrow.

Anyone Reading this for the first time? I don't think I'm due for a re-read yet, but I love to discuss :).

Acorn, obviously never mind. It worked 12 hours later. :-)

Joe wrote: "Anyone Reading this for the first time?"

I've read the translation over a decade ago, this will be my first time with the original

This is one of my all-time favorites. I first read it in high school, but I've read it 2-3 times since then, along with many of the sequels. I haven't read the last three (publication order) in the series, but plan to get to them in the next year or so.

I took my daughter to see the movie a few years ago when it came out. She liked it, but I didn't think it was that great.

If you like audiobooks, I know there is a full cast recording on Audible that has an abridged version of the book, which also includes some revisions and updates by OSC. I thought it was just OK, but someone might enjoy it as a change of pace. I didn't think it was a good substitution for the original novel.

I actually don't like full cast recordings, maybe because I listen at 1.5x to 2x speed and special effects are stuff like whispering doesn't work well then

I’ve never wanted to read the book. It was published at a time when I wasn’t reading much sf, and reviews I’ve read more recently don’t make it sound appealing. I’ll be interested in what participants here have to say.

There is definitely a question of the author and whether a good fiction can be written by, putting it mildly, persons of questionable values.

For those, who don't know Card, a Mormon, has publicly declared his support of laws against homosexual activity and same-sex marriage. Card has stated there is no need to legalize same-sex marriage and that he opposes efforts to do so.

Card's views have had professional repercussions. In 2013, he was selected as a guest author for DC Comics' new Adventures of Superman comic book series, but controversy over his views on homosexuality led illustrator Chris Sprouse to leave the project. An online petition to drop the story received over 16,000 signatures, and DC Comics put Card's story on hold indefinitely.

Oleksandr wrote: "There is definitely a question of the author and whether a good fiction can be written by, putting it mildly, persons of questionable values.

For those, who don't know Card, a Mormon, has publicly..."

I didn’t mention that aspect of the matter, but yes, it’s also a factor for me. But the story itself sounds unappealing to me.

Stephen wrote: "But the story itself sounds unappealing to me"

It is one of my favorites. Just so you know.

Ive never read it before, still in my library’s waiting list but I do plan to try this month. It’s pretty short if I recall correctly.

Rebecca wrote: "Ive never read it before, still in my library’s waiting list but I do plan to try this month. It’s pretty short if I recall correctly."

It's an all-time great. My wife doesn't like sci-fi at all, but I got her to read this and she really liked it. I'm sure there are some who don't like it or who won't read it because it's Card though.

Oleksandr wrote: "There is definitely a question of the author and whether a good fiction can be written by, putting it mildly, persons of questionable values.

For those, who don't know Card, a Mormon, has publicly..."

I read the whole series before his comments or at least before I knew about them. I've read some of his other books & I don't find his views explicit in any of them. The closest I guess would be the Alvin Maker series, which is supposed to be a Joseph Smith allegory, but heavily wrapped in an alternate history/fantasy. It's easy enough to read without putting that heavy meaning on it though.

Another piece of SFF trivia - this novel was the first book published by Tor, which shows how path of history may diverge

Heinlein is still one of my favorite writers even though most women today say he is awful because women you know, his women characters (and I can see that, I just ignore it) . . . So OSC is not a problem for me. Particularly since I can get his stuff from the library. Then I am not paying into his coffers.

Interesting about Ender's Game being Tor's first published book. I wonder if that is what catapulted Tor to the top as a FSF publisher

Stephen wrote: "I’ve never wanted to read the book. ..."

It is really quite good. I thought I would hate it from descriptions. If someone calls this their favorite book, or obsessively reads all the stories in the series over and over, then I'm not likely to have much in common with them.

But it is a good book with some interesting action, surprises and interesting moral questions. The ones that come most to mind is (1) was it ok for the military to use Ender in the way they did? and (2) is Ender guilty for what they tricked him into doing?

Allan said "...I've read some of his other books & I don't find his views explicit in any of them...."

I agree. I doubt very much that my opinion and Card's opinion would agree. But I haven't felt his fiction to be pushing a point of view. Maybe it is and I'm just missing it. Besides I've only read 3 of his books, all involving Ender.

I have Xenocide taking up too much space on my shelf, so maybe I'll take this opportunity to read it now. (It is part 3 of the Ender story.)

Kateblue wrote: "Acorn, obviously never mind. It worked 12 hours later. :-)"

This website was inaccessible to me all day on June 27. I wasn't the only one. Lots of reports on "downdetector". But since I've not seen anyone else mention it, apparently it didn't affect everyone.

Ed wrote: "It is really quite good. I thought I would hate it from descriptions. If someone calls this their favorite book, or obsessively reads all t..."

I read the four books of the Ender series and the following Shadow Saga, which focuses on Bean and other characters from the first series. That's about 12 books, give or take. OSC followed that with a series on the Formic Wars, which precede Ender. I have those on my shelf but have not read them yet. Again, in these books, I haven't seen his views pushed. However, I've read that in some of his stand-alone novels, "Songmaster" in particular, there are expressions of his stand against homosexuality. I'll stick to the Ender/Bean/Formic series, no need to go any further.

ok party people I'm starting it. never read before but pumped to read with others

Ed wrote: "...it is a good book with some interesting action, surprises and interesting moral questions...."

I agree, and what I find most interesting is that Card wrote this book just so he could write (and sell) the sequel Speaker for the Dead. He took a short story "Battle School" and expanded it into Ender's Game so he could set the stage for the story he really wanted to tell. Yet many readers (most, I think, based on comments I've read) seem to prefer Ender's Game to Speaker for the Dead.

As for Xenocide, I liked it OK but it is really the first part of a two-part story. Children of the Mind finishes the story and unfortunately that book is a real slog.

After Card wrapped up the original Ender series he published the so-called Shadow series (following Bean from Ender's Game, as well as the other kids from Battle School and Ender's siblings Peter and Valentine) is OK - the first book Ender's Shadow re-tells Ender's Game from Bean's perspective and is probably my second-favorite book in the series. The other Shadow books are just OK.

The final three Ender books written are called the "Shadows in Flight" series, starting with Ender in Exile which tells the story of Ender's time between Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead. These Shadows in Flight books are supposed to bridge the gap between the four original books and the Shadows series. I haven't read them, but plan to. There is also a one-off book Children of the Fleet which may or may not be the start of a side-series with new characters at "Fleet School," which is what Battle School becomes after the Formic Wars have ended. I haven't read that one either.

But Card has started to open up his universe for others to play in. Aaron Johnson wrote two trilogies about the Formic Wars - the final volume of the second trilogy is not yet published. I wouldn't be surprised to see someone else take over the "Fleet School" books, especially since OCS is in his 70s now.

Sorry, that's a lot of Ender info. I really enjoyed the first book in high school and have read it more than once over the years, but most of the related books just don't hold up well in comparison.

I meant to say earlier that, like many series, the quality seems to decline, as the main themes and actions get repetitive. That said, Speaker for the Dead was outstanding, but a real left turn from Ender. It was really, really good, but not what I expected at all after the first book.

Allan wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "Ive never read it before, still in my library’s waiting list but I do plan to try this month. It’s pretty short if I recall correctly."

It's an all-time great. My wife doesn't like..."

Same! my wife grew up with older parents in a small town that thought sci fi was silly... I gave her this book to read and now she reads Sci-fi pretty regularly.

I've started the book, I know the big final reveal, but I largely forget the story. The writing is solid, the mix of old ideas from the 70s SF like overpopulation with facts of the day (Warsaw pack) turned my nostalgia :)

I was on a long flight after a work trip and put this on and got 80% through in one sitting! It’s been very good. There is a bit of the Vorkosigan “everything goes my way” storytelling going on but Ender suffers so much for it that’s it’s more believable here.

Anyone else find the ages of the kids to be the real science fiction here, that’s the bit that get me to roll my eyes, no way they are that young and acting like that.

Rebecca wrote: "Anyone else find the ages of the kids to be the real science fiction here, that’s the bit that get me to roll my eyes, no way they are that young and acting like that..."

First time I read it, that was a big eye-roll, but it's done in so many other books, you just have to suspend belief and think of them more as teenagers. These are supposed to be the elite kids, but then you have all the semi-normal dominance behavior and all that.

Rebecca wrote: "Anyone else find the ages of the kids to be the real science fiction here, that’s the bit that get me to roll my eyes, no way they are that young and acting like that..."

True, even if it can be hand-waved as they are products of eugenics, bread geniuses...

The film version used slightly older kids, but they still seem too young for me.

I have started reading Xenocide. The typesetting in this book is an absolute crime against humanity! The spacing between words is sometimes only a tiny tiny bit larger than the spacing between letters in a word. Soitlookslikethis.

(I'm doing the 1992 Tor paperback.)

Ed wrote: "... I have Xenocide taking up too much space on my shelf, so maybe I'll take this opportunity to read it now. (It is part 3 of the Ender story.) ..."

OK. So, I finished that one. It was a slog, though. He sets up some interesting societies and ethical dilemmas. And then it is just talk, talk, talk. Then suddenly Jane quickly invents an unbelievably amazing bit of technology that can simultaneously solve several big problems, and which also has truly miraculous side-effects. And yet, with all the hard problems solved, this is only part 1 of a 2-part story. I will not be continuing.

Ed wrote: "... I haven't felt his fiction to be pushing a point of view. Maybe it is and I'm just missing it. ..."

I was keeping this in mind while reading Xenocide and now I do think he is pushing a point of view of sorts. In this future universe, each planet is populated by a single homogeneous culture. The main ones we see here are a Brazillian Catholic world, and a Chinese world. (In book 4 there is also a Japanese world and a Samoan world.) Each of the societies is very well-ordered and everyone seems content with the system they are in and their place in that system and and doesn't want any big changes. Like on the Catholic world, all the humans are Catholic, except for a few, and even those few who don't believe behave as if they do anyway to fit-in.

Also there is a lot of focus on families and raising children. And sacrifice for the good of the community.

Also there is a lot of disdain for "Congress". Not USA Congress, but still it feels like he is hinting that Congress is far away and out-of-touch and intentionally suppressing the colonies.

I can't see any place in Ender's universe for someone who wants to think differently from the herd or who doesn't want to marry and have children.

Both Ender and his sister have written books and those books had a big impact on their society and continue to do so over 1000s of years. So Card seems to have a belief in the power of stories to change people's thoughts. I can't believe he isn't trying something of the sort in his own writing.

Still: "Ender's Game" itself is a worthwhile read. "Speaker for the Dead" as well. But I'm sorry I went on to book 3.

I personally only liked Ender's Game. I've read the first three years ago. But I liked the first couple or three of the shadow series--can't remember how many I read

I was disappointed when all the great characters from Ender's Game disappeared way back when. But Ender's Shadow and subsequent fixed that. I may read them again.

I feel like Card fell into the trap of extending a series so far that it gets somewhat repetitive & thus less interesting. Raymond Feist comes to mind - the original Magician series (Magician (2 volumes), Silverthorn, A Darkness At Sethanon) was fantastic, but after several subsequent series, the concept was worn out.

(I highly recommend the Magician series, for anyone interested)

Ed wrote: "Still: "Ender's Game" itself is a worthwhile read. "Speaker for the Dead" as well. But I'm sorry I went on to book 3."

I agree with this 100%. I loved Ender's Game as a teenager and read it probably five times. Then when I was a bit older I read Speaker for the Dead, and loved it even more (although I think I read it only two times).

Then I made the mistake of continuing with the series. Xenocide was bad enough that it was years before I touched anything Card had written again.

(In case you're curious, it was Ender's Shadow, which I found pretty tedious).

Antti wrote: "...Then I made the mistake of continuing with the series. Xenocide was bad enough that it was years before I touched anything Card had written again...."

I agree for the most part. I read Xenocide twice, because I didn't realize he was going to write a fourth book (Children of the Mind, which is a direct sequel to Xenocide because OSC by that time had completely lost the idea of "brevity") and the second time I actually enjoyed it slightly more than the first time. But Children of the Mind was awful.

As for the Shadow series, I liked Ender's Shadow probably as much as I liked Speaker for the Dead, but I didn't think much of the rest of the Shadow series.

The First Meetings and War of Gifts books are mere trifles and worth reading only for completists.

I have the final three books sitting on my shelf (Ender in Exile, etc) and I will probably read them eventually, but I keep finding reasons not to.

In summary, I enjoyed Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead, and Ender's Shadow, but I wouldn't recommend any of the other ones.

Yes, that fits with my experience. Jumping the shark, dragging a series on too long.

Allan wrote: "Yes, that fits with my experience. Jumping the shark, dragging a series on too long."

A general note. I guess the series continues if there is a demand, but most long series readers (Vorkosigan excluded and it isn't that long) aren't members of our group at least.

I haven't read Xenocide or Children of the Mind recently, but I've read them several times and remember them well. I liked them a lot, so I guess I'm in the minority. The one-world-one-culture criticisms are certainly valid, but didn't impact my enjoyment.

I also liked OSC and Aaron Johnston's more recent collaboration of Ender's prequels, starting with Earth Unaware

I also liked OSC's early work, but to say the truth, I've never read any of his recent stuff, firstly because I had to access and later because I've read about him and he isn't that great to glance over his statements... at the same time, I saw that he had a fantasy based in the Carpathians