Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

The Power and the Glory by Graham Greene is our July 2023 New School Classic Group Read.

This is the Spoiler Thread

I may join later this month.

I've got a reservation out on this book, hopefully it will arrive in time.

I'm most of the way through it and should finish later this week. I will try to post some thoughts over the weekend.

I read this one ages ago and admit, until the ending, I found the book to be boring. Then the ending happened and I just started laughing and the book took on an entirely different light. I wonder if I will have that response again and if anyone else here will agree or think I missed the point. (I do tend to read things wrong.) I can’t wait to see what everyone thinks about it!

I started it last month, but my internet broke for 5 days (I was reading it as an e-loan) so I will now finish it soon!

Darren wrote: "I started it last month, but my internet broke for 5 days (I was reading it as an e-loan) so I will now finish it soon!"

Well that was a bummer for you.

A couple of questions to get us started on this discussion.

Why has this Mexican state outlawed the practice of Catholicism? What is its argument against the religion?

From Wikipedia:

"Greene visited Mexico from January to May 1938 to research and write a nonfiction account of the persecution of the Catholic Church in Mexico, that he had been planning since 1936. The persecution of the Catholic Church was especially severe in the province of Tabasco, under anti-clerical governor Tomás Garrido Canabal.His campaign succeeded in closing all the churches in the state. It forced the priests to marry and give up their soutanes.Greene called it the "fiercest persecution of religion anywhere since the reign of Elizabeth.""

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pow...

I'm hoping to get to this by the end of the month.

Katy wrote: "Why has this Mexican state outlawed the practice of Catholicism? What is its argument against the religion?"

I just finished. I posted a review in the reviews thread, but I will expand my thoughts here, although I think I'll wait until a few more people have finished.

Greene based this book on his experiences visiting the Mexican state of Tabasco in 1938 (which he further documented in The Lawless Roads). The government was upset at the Church for demanding money from the poor who were often starving, and giving them nothing in return. That's a fairly bleak judgment, although it wouldn't be the first (or last) time the Catholic Church was criticized for being self-serving.

I'm from Poland and I've bought used copy of this book for $2.50. It's quite old and even contains stamp from what I assume is bookstore that sold it. I find it pretty interesting that this book made it's way from Australia across the world to Poland.


I think that is the guy who owned this bookstore:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_R...

The stamp matches this description from wiki:
"After his death Tyrrell's Bookshop was managed by his son John and his grandson William ("Bill"). In 1971 it moved to 328 Pacific Highway, Crows Nest"

I quite like the fact that this book traveled that far.

That makes the book even better reading.

Tried hard to get into this one but to no avail. I found it really boring. I had high hopes beforehand because everyone speaks so strongly of it, but it became a chore to read after a while.

I started listening to the audio book today. The narrator has a voice that is reminiscent of Richard Burton, although perhaps a bit deeper in tone. (Audible/Blackstone Audio).

I finished Book 1 and started on 2. Already I have to agree with back cover, this is a masterpiece.

In addition to developing the characters the first book has an overall theme of decay. And all the characters are in despair. The two priests consider their despair itself a sin. The one who has been captured and forced to marry experiences a type of daily crucifixion. The priest not yet caught struggles with alcoholism and is not sure what the right thing to do is. The priests who were previously shot seem to be better off, but would it be a sin to give up?

Greene’s character development of the young girls and boy shows his talent. Coral Fellows fills in for her incompetent parents. Luis rebels against his mother’s piety. Brigitta at 7 is going on 21 and not in a good way.

The red shirts were close and the priest was saying mass when I put the book down. I am in the middle of one of those sublime moments in great literature. The priest has been hit with noticing a change in people towards him and learning it is they who will pay a price if he remains free. Meeting Brigitta. (Those who read this far hopefully know what I mean). And suddenly he is experiencing something new. Humility, these poor suffer by choice and not forced as it is for him. But he is beginning to experience moments, feelings like beauty . . . Back to the book! Those red shirts are closing in! I don’t know why he goes on saying mass!

I have finished and don't want to say anything that will spoil but agree with Marti and would add the book only gets better. I am not well read in Greene and hadn't read this before. I see I have a lot of catching up to do. Terry, Marti and everyone, I look forward to your thoughts when finished.

I'm really enjoying this book. The writing is great, and it masterfully conveys the atmosphere, the heat, the stench, and the overall sense of dreadfulness.

"Dreadfulness" is the perfect description of the tone of this book. It also has a sort of 'descent into hell' type feeling as the priest encounters new horrors while he's on the run.

This quote really struck me, "Hope is an instinct only the reasoning human mind can kill. An animal never knows despair." I thought the descriptions of beetles and dogs struggling at the same time as the people was an interesting way for Greene to kind of showcase how humanity creates its own violent struggles as a mirror to what goes on in nature.

Sorry to say, I am out on this one, at least for now. I found it too difficult to get interested at this time.

Terry, there are times when our reading needs differ. You may pick this up down the road and be surprised that you experience it differently.

Earlier this year I read Dostoyevsky’s Crime and Punishment which is referenced in the back cover of my book, “The Power and the Glory is a moralist thriller that traces a line of influence back to Dostoyevsky and forward to Cormac McCarthy.” (Penguin’s Classic). Funny how this fell into place but Blood Meridian is on my short list to read as a challenge that I wasn’t really looking forward to.

Anyway I finished Book 2. I will discuss a couple things that stuck out for me.

The mestizo is actually troubled personally by the priest’s failure to trust him. The priest’s behavior bothered me at first. I thought the priest wasn’t giving the mestizo a fair chance. I don’t recall the priest ever being unkind, just didn’t go so far as including mestizo as trusted acquaintance or friend. But eventually I started to understand the mestizo expected to enjoy the friendship of the priest until the time came to betray him. Maybe because he saw them as both outcasts. Maybe he wanted to lie to himself while being friendly. Maybe it was a thrill to be trusted and know all along in the end . . . Some say the mestizo was the priest’s Judas. But, I don’t think so. The mestizo was probably not accepted anywhere. And Judas was part of Christ’s inner circle. The mestizo received a type of badly needed acceptance when he had a role to play with the guards. But back to priest and me as a reader, Greene masterfully brings in God’s image. The priest and the reader begin to see the mestizo differently.

In addition, the priest is not able to sincerely say an Act of Contrition or repent properly. He looks at the picture of himself on wall, when his sins were venial (less serious) and now they are mortal. But now he has empathy for fellow human beings that was lacking before. This is shown in his worry that another man in his same unrepentant mortal condition might be executed.

The priest prepares himself to die in the morning and also to live. Maybe God still has more for him to do. That is his hope. But not as much on his account, which he should know how to deal with his spiritual needs but seemingly doesn’t, but he genuinely cares about any man that God would still use him to help.

I could say more about pious woman. But I think this is long enough! Looking forward to reading what everyone has to say about this book and also finishing it soon.

Marti wrote: "...Some say the mestizo was the priest’s Judas. But, I don’t think so...."

When you're finished, let us know if you still think the mestizo wasn't Judas. The book does put the Whiskey Priest in a situation similar to the final days of Christ in the Bible.

By the way, the Whiskey Priest was based somewhat on Father Miguel Pro. Not only did the Mexican government execute Pro, but they took photos of the execution and circulated them through the population.

More about Father Pro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Pro

The term "mestizo" means "half-caste" (both terns are used frequently in this book) which roughly translates to "half-breed" or as we might say in these more enlightened days, "mixed race." Half-caste also has a connotation of meaning "impure" and I wonder specifically how Greene meant it to be interpreted in this story.

By the way, Greene wrote The Power and the Glory after he traveled through Mexico and visited Tabasco and Chiapas which are the areas described in this novel and the sites of some of the worst persecution of Catholic priests. He further described his trip in the non-fiction book The Lawless Roads which I am currently reading.

RJ wrote “When you're finished, let us know if you still think the mestizo wasn't Judas.”

I still cannot compare the mestizo to Judas. Finished Part 3 only. He is a traitor of course. But his extreme neediness doesn’t raise him to the level of a Judas for me.

There are similar themes experienced between Dostoyevsky’s protagonist in Crime and Punishment and Greene’s priest and lieutenant. All three wrestle with the consequences of their failures. And the consequences overwhelm and change everything. Intellectually the protagonist in Crime and Punishment considers a crime and when opportunity comes, goes through with the act. The intellectual reasoning that he used prior justified the crime and his expectations were more good would come out if it for more people than would be hurt. The lieutenant cares . . . Overconfident that good will come along for the younger generation if he can only eliminate what he hated in his youth. The priest, unaware of his vanity, is weakened and seduced.

In The Power and the Glory the setting is despair of society broken down by a totalitarian regime. Greene does not neglect the youth in his masterpiece. A mob of children taunt Padre Jose; and when the lieutenant chases them off they remain close by. I think he realizes his dream for them is all but lost. And the priest cannot deny his great love for his daughter, who is also not thriving and he is unable to do her any good.

The mestizo is infantile IMO. He craves, needs, wants acceptance from anywhere and anyone. His problem is he has no idea how to be accepted. Relationships present an opportunity for him that he will abuse. I don’t think he knows any better.

This is contrasted with the priest and lieutenant who are able, adult men however flawed. And the priest was probably the first person who gave the mestizo tough love. It would have been easy to play along. The priest treated the mestizo as he really was, but did not abuse him. He thought the ransom could possibly do the mestizo some good and hoped in the end his ransom would benefit some poor soul.

I ran out of time and couldn't get to this one but I'll come back and read the thread when I get to it, hopefully later this year.