Play Book Tag discussion

This is the Buddy Read for the Forty Rules of Love. I am about to write my review, and am so glad there will be others to discuss this book with. I do feel this is the kind of book that will be richer with discussion.

The Forty Rules of Love by Elif Shafak; 4 stars

This book was really beautiful in a way, but also thought provoking. There is no traditional love story here, because the love story isn’t really about romantic love, but about the expansion of love. It’s about the deepest and most divine love, religious love, spiritual love, the essence of love. The love between romantic partners, parents and children. Between mentor and acolyte, between intellectual partners and friends. The love of humanity, community, God, and of self as one of the deepest. The Forty Rules of Love might have been named the Forty Expressions of Love. Or the Forty Levels of Love.

This is the kind of book that needs a book group and a discussion. I know for my Goodreads friends, they would be already googling, or already in the know about all kinds of things. The life and teachings of Rumi, whether or not there was indeed a Shams, the legend of the whirling dervish, perhaps something of Turkish Culture, Sufism, Islam, or the Qu’ran. It’s the kind of book that raises more questions than answers them, which I believe is the essence of Rumi, whom I have never read. Until now of course. The book is riddled with excerpts from Rumi’s poetry and the Forty Rules of Love. The philosophical underpinnings are unescapable, and then highlighted through the experiences of the characters, the lovers. Of whom there are multiple narrators. The town drunk, the town harlot, a beggar, a gambler, a warrior, a student, the wife….. The modern day Inner Adventurer. This is meant to show us how love works through all of these various actors and experiencers. And how the precepts work on and through them. The concepts and the questions raised were really interesting. And now I want to have those conversations. The book itself was not enough to satisfy without a deepening, which of course was the point of the book.

I love how this author, and this is my third book of hers, raises thoughtful questions about religion, love, sin, god, affairs, contrast with culture, and it always comes back to the self, and how one narrates the deepest ineffable expression of pure love. And now I am left with the questions. Waiting for a companion to appear to deepen them with me and with whom to fall into this world. Destiny will arrive.

Lovely review, Amy! I'll be picking up the book from the library this weekend. I'm finishing up the book I'm reading now and will start it soon.

I plan to read it soon too.

I've begun reading the book. So far, I'm on p. 42. I've become acquainted with the modern day family and am now reading about Shams, the wandering dervish. As I'm unfamiliar with the word "dervish" (although I've heard the phrase, "whirling dervish" many times), I checked Wikipedia. There's a good description and photos of dervishes.

Here's the link, if you want to see. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dervish

Nancy, have you started the book yet?

Yes I started it yesterday, but it will take me awhile. I’m not operating at full speed right now. So far, I’m not crazy about the modern day characters, but the 13th century story is interesting. I had no idea what whirling dervish meant back then. I was picturing my youngest as a child -always running, climbing, jumping and yes, whirling. Thanks for that link Holly!

While a lot of the names and terms (such as Sufism, Rumi, Sama) are unfamiliar to me, some of the basic ideas feel very comfortable so far.

NancyJ wrote: "Yes I started it yesterday, but it will take me awhile. I’m not operating at full speed right now. So far, I’m not crazy about the modern day characters, but the 13th century story is interesting. ..."

Nancy, I hope you're feeling okay, as you mention not operating at full speed.

I'm now on p. 104. I'm not crazy about the modern day characters either and find them to be rather simply drawn. I'm more taken with the 13th century tale too, which is unusual for me. If there are two story-lines in a book, my norm is to be interested more in what's happening currently.

Unlike some other books I've read, this one seems rather straightforward and easier to read. I'm liking how the author incorporates the perspectives of minor characters, ie. the Novice.

Holly R W wrote: "NancyJ wrote: "Yes I started it yesterday, but it will take me awhile. I’m not operating at full speed right now. So far, I’m not crazy about the modern day characters, but the 13th century story i..."

It’s a little confusing to know which character is speaking (thinking), as the audio narrator doesn’t differentiate them. Butbibcan usually figure it out. I like the novice too.

Back here again to post a link to Wikipedia's article about Rumi.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi

I had heard of Rumi before and read some of his poetry, but certainly don't know much about him. So far, the book is featuring Shams, rather than Rumi (although Shams is now in Konya at the point I've reached in the book).

I hadn't known that Shams is a historical person. That's how little I know. He's discussed in the Wikipedia article.

I'm now on page 137.

(view spoiler)[I'm finding it interesting re: the gifts that Shams is giving to the people he meets and what he says to them ( Desert Rose the harlot, Hasan the beggar, and Suleiman the drunk). These were gifts to him from the Dervish in Baghdad. (hide spoiler)]

Holly R W wrote: "Back here again to post a link to Wikipedia's article about Rumi.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi

I had heard of Rumi before and read some of his poetry, but certainly don't know much abou..."

That's really interesting. I get a little annoyed at Shams for doing what he tells others not to do, but it's a very human thing to do after all. Now that I know that he's real, I guess I appreciate that after all.

So far I only heard a little of his poetry. It might have been the first time Shams heard it too. I hope there will be more.

NancyJ wrote: "Holly R W wrote: "Back here again to post a link to Wikipedia's article about Rumi.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi

I had heard of Rumi before and read some of his poetry, but certainly do..."

Nancy, I'm finding that both Rumi and Shams are hard to take at times, due to their assumption of spiritual correctness. They can be rather didactic and superior-seeming.

I like what Rumi's wife Kerra says on p. 175. (view spoiler)["Because I am the wife of a famous scholar,people expect me to think highly of scholars, but the truth is, I don't. Scholars know a lot, that's for sure, but is too much knowledge any good when it comes to matters of faith?... If you ask me, ordinary Christians and ordinary Muslims have more in common with each other than with their own scholars." (hide spoiler)]

Also, Rumi was definitely a man of his time. (view spoiler)[He did not allow his wife Kerra to have anyting to do with his books. He told her not to even come into the room where they were kept. :( (hide spoiler)]

I am no longer connected to the pages and the quotes. But one thing to wonder is, why did Rumi stay known to the world, and Shams not? Also, what do we make of Sham's suggestions and the changes he asks of Rumi to consider or make? How do we feel about his expectations and their impact?

Amy wrote: "I am no longer connected to the pages and the quotes. But one thing to wonder is, why did Rumi stay known to the world, and Shams not? Also, what do we make of Sham's suggestions and the changes he..."

Amy, I can't fully answer your questions yet, as I still have the last third of the book to read. I'll be pondering them. For starters, I think that Shams expected Rumi to make some questionable changes.

Here is my review:


The author, Elif Shafak, wrote a novel illuminating Sufi beliefs and practices, with a focus upon two 13th century Sufi Muslim practitioners: Rumi and Shams. The Forty Rules of Love were principles that they discussed and tried to follow. Rumi was a famous spiritual scholar and poet, living in Konya, Turkey. Shams was a wandering dervish, whom many believed was a heretic. He agitated people who were complacent and narrow-minded, and preferred the company of the downtrodden. Rumi and Shams saw each other as spiritual companions.

In the modern day timeline of the novel, Ella is a 40 year old wife and mother, married to a man she has little emotional connection with. She becomes inspired by an author whose book she is reading - Aziz. His book tells the story of Rumi and Shams. Through letters to each other, Ella and Aziz create their own relationship, which takes them by surprise.

By far, the earlier timeline story of Rumi and Shams was more compelling for me. Adding to the enjoyment, were minor characters who narrated their own encounters with the men. These included: Rumi's wife and sons, as well as the beggar, prostitute and drunk whom Shams befriended.

Where the novel floundered a bit, was how didactic some of the passages were (concerning religious practices and dictums). I also thought that the Ella and her family members were too broadly sketched. Some of the writing concerning these characters seemed heavy-handed.

The strength of the novels was its portrayal of 13th century Sufi belief, making it accessible to modern day readers.

3.5 stars

Holly I agree with all of your comments, I enjoyed reading about the time period, and the dynamics between the two men, and I enjoyed many of the smaller stories. I agree that the discussions of the religion and the Rules were pedantic. It was really hard to take at certain points, It felt cultish at times, using language to create intense feelings. Shams denied being intellectual, while using the mind to discuss the heart. The 40 rules didn’t necessarily relate to actual behaviors.

Shams could be as judgmental and cruel as anyone else in the story, especially toward his wife. He loved Rumi (and his vision of what Rumi could become), but he (and his body) could not love a woman. I listened to the audio so I might have misunderstood what he was saying about his body.

I agree that the modern story wasn’t as interesting, except as it paralleled the older story. Ella (like Rumi) was seduced by the writings about love, and she gave up her husband and family for a person she compared to Shams. Then he was gone, leaving her with nothing (except maybe a future of writing or talking to people about Sufism).

I enjoyed many of the smaller stories, I found the women’s comments much more insightful. The wife, the harlot and the student, The harlot was almost killed - not for being a harlot, but for trying to repent by going to the call for prayer meeting. After being a victim of rape and forced prostitution, she wasn’t allowed to be anything else.

Sham’s manipulation of Rumi (and Rumi’s acceptance of the influence) was both fascinating and outrageous. He knowingly destroyed Rumi’s reputation with his students and his loving relationships with his family, so that he had almost nothing left. Then he left him too, and broke his heart. He professed to be preaching love, but he left the town with a net loss of love.

Amy wrote: "I am no longer connected to the pages and the quotes. But one thing to wonder is, why did Rumi stay known to the world, and Shams not? Also, what do we make of Sham's suggestions and the changes he..."

I suppose it was Rumi’s beautiful poetry that made him famous. Sham was a heretic - rude to power, negative, aggressive (and sometimes hypocritical).

Shams had a vision of what Rumi could become. He didn’t think Rumi could become a poet until he closed off all other avenues to a comfortable life, So he systematically closed all those doors, Rumi seemed to know and accept what Sham was doing. He didn’t want to drink, but he went to the bar with Sham knowing that it was unacceptable to his Muslim community. He never drank, but it didn’t matter.

it reminded me of the relationship between Jesus and Judas, as portrayed in The Book of Longings. Judas believed that he was doing what God and Jesus wanted- to make him a martyr and bring about a massive change,

Yes, Nancy is speaking to a lot of the things I had questions about. Like shams professed to be the ultimate in divine love, but he divided Rumi from the people who loved him. Scorched his reputation. I loved that he tried to bring in love with the common man and with the self, but they were times he was just outrageous. I did feel that he caused divisions with the wife and children, and then there was a lot of selfishness in that relationship. And who is he to decide if Rumi should be a poet or a teacher? I also thought the visions that proclaimed that they were for one another, and each of them, knowing that shams would die, played a role in some thing. That definitely upped the ante. But it also says something about posting death over life. There was a piece of Obsession in there that reminded me of the two men in When Nietzche Wept. I felt very protective of Rumi. While Rumi loved Shams, I was far less entranced.

It's interesting that the novel was about Sufi Muslim belief, two very specific men (Rumi and Shams) and the thirteenth century, yet I could see how universal its themes really are.

The two religious leaders, Rumi and Shams, were very human, with their share of human failings and blind spots. Certainly, as both of you have pointed out, Rumi was the kinder man, who was part of a caring family. He unfortunately, allowed himself to be influenced by Shams, whose ideas were destructive. I see parallels between them and other influential, powerful people (clergy, politicians, etc.) They each had a charisma that attracted a following.

Per the whirling dervish dance, I flashed in my mind to the joyous dance of Hasidic Jewish men as well as the passionate Greek dancing I have seen. There is a religious exuberance to the dance.

I also thought about the dangers of inciting mob violence, vigilantism and its parallels to what we're seeing in today's world. Sham's enemies murdered him. Vigilantes terrorized fellow townspeople and acted as morality police.

Regarding Ella and Aziz: While I could see that they developed feelings for each other through their letters, it strained credibility for me. Wouldn't Ella have wrestled with herself more than she did or have retained some of her characteristic caution? I understand that she needed to separate from her husband, but what about her children?

These are just some of my thoughts.

I’m so glad this was a buddy read- thank you both so much! I wouldn’t have gotten nearly as much out of it without you. I might not have even finished it. (I’ve been starting books without finishing them all month. Just like last summer when I was sick.) I should try a short adventure book next.

I thought also that Ella’s falling in love was a little rushed and fabricated and unrealistic. I felt she was falling in love with possibility. And the fullness of life and self. But Aziz? This was about the expansions and dimensions of love. But it’s dangers too. Not clear what was real and productive - even if it was love. That’s true in both timelines.

Amy wrote: "I thought also that Ella’s falling in love was a little rushed and fabricated and unrealistic. I felt she was falling in love with possibility. And the fullness of life and self. But Aziz? This was..."

@ Amy, I agree. And, I wasn't happy that the author wrote the twist of Aziz being terminally ill. That felt contrived as well.

NancyJ wrote: "I’m so glad this was a buddy read- thank you both so much! I wouldn’t have gotten nearly as much out of it without you. I might not have even finished it. (I’ve been starting books without finishin..."

@Nancy, our discussion here has been interesting - I've enjoyed it too. I hope you can find a book you can settle into.

Holly R W wrote: "Amy wrote: "I thought also that Ella’s falling in love was a little rushed and fabricated and unrealistic. I felt she was falling in love with possibility. And the fullness of life and self. But Az..."

I thought it felt contrived too, but it helped to align it with the other story.

I think this is so funny. My friends just came home from a trip to Greece and Turkey. While in Turkey, they attended a dance performance of the whirling dervishes. My friend is a great photographer. Last evening when I visited her and her husband, she showed me a picture album of all of their travels, including scenes from the dance.

She was kind enough to bring home a small gift for me. It is an embroidered Turkish bookmark. Just perfect!

Now, she is interested in reading, "The Forty Rules of Love".