Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion

If anyone would like to lead the August discussion for NIGHTCRAWLING, please let me know. You can respond here or dm me directly. Thanks!

I'm in for participating but not leading!

It’s August and time for our discussion of Leila Mottley’s Nightcrawling. Has anyone read this? Planning on reading it or currently reading it. I read it several months ago and looking forward to discussing it.

Oh my! I missed a day. Today is the 2nd. In retirement days and dates are all confusing. Sorry about that.

As for the reading schedule. I don’t have my copy of the book available at the moment so I can’t tell if the book is broken up into Parts or not. Someone can let me know if it is or not. If we want to break it up into chapters then how about the following:

Chap 1-4 today through Aug 5th
Chap 5-12 through Aug 13th

Entire book open August 14th

Hi this is my first read of Nightcrawling. The edition I’m reading only has chapters.

Queen wrote: "Hi this is my first read of Nightcrawling. The edition I’m reading only has chapters."

Thanks so much, Queen. I’m still looking for my copy.

I got the book today and at the same time took a long Metro ride. I got a lot of reading done on the subway. On the way in town I'm like ..ugh..this is gonna be a slug..on the way home, particularly after Ki and Trevor's basketball game, I'm all in!
But really...Ki gets drunk...Is essentially raped..and then so easily decides to join "the life"? Kinda throws shade at the millions of other women faced with rent increases and small prospects who have found another way.
I have a printed version with no chapter demarcations...but only 60 pages in so I dont think I've written a spoiler.

William wrote: "I got the book today and at the same time took a long Metro ride. I got a lot of reading done on the subway. On the way in town I'm like ..ugh..this is gonna be a slug..on the way home, particularl..."

You are so right, William! Plus, it does throw shade big time. This is written terribly simplistic for such complex issues. I was not impressed with this book.

Barb wrote: "William wrote: "I got the book today and at the same time took a long Metro ride. I got a lot of reading done on the subway. On the way in town I'm like ..ugh..this is gonna be a slug..on the way h..."

Hmm ok..but as I alluded to about the basketball scene.. the novel seems to have found it's footing and is poised for take off. (I mean, an Oprah club pick can't be wrong, right?) I'm hoping you're wrong about it being simplistic and the characters reactions to stresses and deprivations are more nuanced going forward. We shall see..

William wrote: "Barb wrote: "William wrote: "I got the book today and at the same time took a long Metro ride. I got a lot of reading done on the subway. On the way in town I'm like ..ugh..this is gonna be a slug...."

William, you wrote, "But really...Ki gets drunk...Is essentially raped..and then so easily decides to join "the life"? Kinda throws shade at the millions of other women faced with rent increases and small prospects who have found another way."

So that's what I was responding to. These comments had nothing to do with the basketball game. Yes, when I saw that this book was an Oprah Book Club choice, I was excited to read it. While it is a decent book, I still feel the the subject matter should have had a bit more depth to it, given the complexities. However, it did bring up some different emotions in me, which I will talk about later.

Some of the way the author has the main character discuss poverty in the early chapters comes off as disingenuous. Like what the author thinks being in poverty should feel/look like without any actual experience with poverty or persons experiencing poverty. I don't think it's malicious but it's condescending.

Another thing is, as a reader, you have to suspend some (a lot of) disbelief (which is likely related to my earlier observation that the way the author handles poverty is condescending):

1. Obama is president, so it's after 2008 and the main character has a cell phone and at her age, the internet is something that has always existed for her. Are there no fast food restaurants around her neighborhood? Are they not hiring? No waitress positions open? There was nowhere else she could turn for help? Are the laws in Oakland different? How is she working at a liquor store at 17? Is she being paid under the table?

2. What FRIEND GIVES a 17 year old MULTIPLE mixed drinks in a STRIP CLUB and lets her walk out into the street alone?

3. Kiara is very stupid. And not like 17 year old stupid. And it is very hard to believe that a YOUNG WOMAN who has grown up in poverty and basically had to fend for herself has very little survival skills/street smarts to lean on in a time of need. She starts prostitution and doesn't even set a price for herself!

4. That a boy who willingly gave up his young adulthood to care for his sister is now all of a sudden throwing up his hands and leaving her to the wolves.

I don't know where to begin on her relationship with her mother...

Barb wrote: "William wrote: "Barb wrote: "William wrote: "I got the book today and at the same time took a long Metro ride. I got a lot of reading done on the subway. On the way in town I'm like ..ugh..this is ..."

I'm just hoping that I have a different opinion about the book when I finish than you. You've said you were not impressed. Too soon for me to make that call. And the Oprah comment...tongue planted firmly in my cheek,,,

ENTIRE BOOK OPEN FOR DISCUSSION

“Commanding debut” “powerful poetry and courageous, unsparing vision” “an electrifying debut” “Nightcrawling bursts at the seams and swallows you whole” “writing erupts and flows like lava” and on and on and on…

These comments were made about Nightcrawling and its author by some authors who I love and respect. So, with that type of praise I was prepared to be wowed by this book. Unfortunately, I found it a bit underwhelming. I know others have enjoyed it but this one was a no for me. I didn’t connect with any of these characters in any way and found myself just reading it quick to finish it. If certain scenes were changed and it was marketed as a YA book maybe I could’ve gotten into it more. I don’t know. Just not for me.

This book is on many LGBTQ lists as a favorite. Unless the author identifies with any of these alphabets I think that’s a stretch. Seems like any book that has a gay scene or character is identified as a gay book. It’s like the “in” thing to do.

Overall I was left with a positive impression of the book. And will read her next effort. It was a bit uneven though. I suspect that has more to do with the protagonist then the writing. Not many books are written through the eyes of a seventeen year old sex worker. She seems at times both extremely naive and preternaturally mature. And she was given to extended bouts of reflection and pondering. When I was a teen not much more than the classic sex drugs and rock and roll passed my thoughts. But, like most teenagers no matter how loud I screamed at her not to make that wrong choice she went ahead and did it anyway. Mostly the book is about the slim chances and choices available to teens living in poverty and the how easily those in authority, police, social workers, government, exploit those teens. If your a Black nonbinary teen sex worker multiply that exploitation by ten.

I’ve discontinued reading this at the never-ending cop scene(s).

The author touched a lot of hard topics, and I agree with the commentary given, where it was expressed that they were more so superficial in their delivery. It lacked the emotional appeal that I would connect to and prefer to see.

I do want to agree with a couple of others in here when mentioning that this book may have been okay for YA. Where the police are concerned, I read this is part of the true aspects of this story. I will say that it doesn't surprised me any, having been raised among city & county officers. It seems there's as many bad as good. I just wish there had been the emotional depth that was needed for me.

William wrote: "I got the book today and at the same time took a long Metro ride. I got a lot of reading done on the subway. On the way in town I'm like ..ugh..this is gonna be a slug..on the way home, particularl..."

I could not disagree more. Kiara, for one, is not a "woman." In fact, that's a foundational theme in the book--childhood vs. adulthood (especially how Black girls and boys are treated like adults with their decisions). Comparing Kiara to other "women" is so, so far off. Have you finished the book by now? The theme of decisions we make in life, and how that plays into childhood vs. adulthood, is foundational, but maybe isn't clear until the end of the book.

Tamika wrote: "Some of the way the author has the main character discuss poverty in the early chapters comes off as disingenuous. Like what the author thinks being in poverty should feel/look like without any act..."

I disagree with your comment about Kiara being "stupid." Let's take a step back, and look at this book in the same literary class as Jude the Obscure, and House of Mirth. You could say the main protagonist in those books was stupid. Or, you could see that the main theme of the book is how a person with good intentions can get grinded by a system. The main character has limited information to understand their world, and if anything has an overidealized view of others and themselves, and makes decisions trying to follow an internal moral compass, only to find themselves completely ruined--because the system is just too big. An entire justice system designed to protect cops who traffic women, is just too big. Kiara makes decisions based on her wanting to help others. She is a child, so no, her decisions are not wise. And at the grand jury, they tell her that she was the stupid, immoral one (not the cops who brutalized her at every turn). That's entirely the point. She makes unwise decisions, but she wants to do good, and she is a child.

I think several of us forget to put Kiara's age in perspective. She is a child trying to navigate a system that is not only complicated, but messy too. This 'system' is not meant to be helpful to poor POC by any standard & there is no justice in it for them. While she makes poor decisions, I found that I need to remember that most young ones her age would when feeling trapped with no way out.

I'm seeing several comments about this being a YA book (or "just" a YA book). What are people thinking? Are y'all thinking, Twilight? Harry Potter? or are y'all thinking, The Hate U Give? Rolling Thunder Hear My Cry? I don't quite understand what folks mean by saying this book should be marketed as "just" a YA book. I happen to think this book is a literary achievement. There are symbols upon symbols going on. This is the kind of book that rewards you for thinking deeply about its imagery and word choices and character types/decisions. I will have to read it again at a later point.

blereader wrote: "I'm seeing several comments about this being a YA book (or "just" a YA book). What are people thinking? Are y'all thinking, Twilight? Harry Potter? or are y'all thinking, The Hate U Give? Rolling T..."

I think it's perfectly fine for people to voice their opinions without expecting what feels like insults. I personally felt the book was a 'simple' read, meaning that the writing depth would have suited the YA arena.

This is one example of a brilliant scene in her book: Just before Kiara sees the grand jury, 9-year old Trevor sneaks off and gets beaten to a concussion by a group of older kids. He's badly bruised, but what about the kids? They most likely will never see any consequences for what they did. In fact, even though Kiara is furious at the kids, she has the wisdom to say that it's expected--under the right circumstances, a group of older, more powerful kids will gang up on a smaller child.
How perfect is that, for an analogy of her vs. the police officers? (Except, of course, as her attorney tells her, these men are not children, they are full-grown adults.) Plus, it's a foreshadowing, that Kiara will lose, and that the officers will not get indicted.
It's beyond sickening that the trafficking/police officers conspiracy is based on true events, both where the author lives, and there are examples in other parts of the USA. I see this book as a work of literature that intellectually comments on topics that are highly timely.

blereader wrote: "This is one example of a brilliant scene in her book: Just before Kiara sees the grand jury, 9-year old Trevor sneaks off and gets beaten to a concussion by a group of older kids. He's badly bruise..."

You wrote:
"It's beyond sickening that the trafficking/police officers conspiracy is based on true events, both where the author lives, and there are examples in other parts of the USA. I see this book as a work of literature that intellectually comments on topics that are highly timely.

I strongly agree with you. Having been born & raised in Portland, Oregon, now living a few miles outside of it, there have been horrid acts by police & sheriffs against POC here. Age doesn't seem to matter. It's beyond sickening.

Barb wrote: "blereader wrote: "

Yep, a big sex trafficking ring/cop conspiracy was found in my state of Virginia, and guess what? Not much has come of out that. If anything, I want more books to shine a light on this problem. Every time I see a "Have you seen me?" billboard about sex trafficking, I can't help but assume that the cops already know exactly who and where the sex trafficking victims are.

William wrote: "Overall I was left with a positive impression of the book. And will read her next effort. It was a bit uneven though. I suspect that has more to do with the protagonist then the writing. Not many b..."

I saw the same thing, she's a mix of naivety and wisdom. Which, is a pretty good way to represent a 17/18 year-old. But, how realistic is Kiara, as a 17-18 year old? I think that's up for debate (even setting aside that the author herself wrote the book in her teens).
To me personally, the least realistic thing about her, is that her moral compass is pure throughout (the burnt pancake that stays a perfect circle, you might say). She's not twisted psychologically by her circumstances (e.g. Bluest Eye). She's not even cynical nor bitter at the end (e.g. The Invisible Man). But, she's not supposed to be a "realistic" character, strictly speaking. She still represents an idea, like how you describe her as a representation of the slim chances and choices that exist for teens in poverty.

blereader wrote: "Barb wrote: "blereader wrote: "

Yep, a big sex trafficking ring/cop conspiracy was found in my state of Virginia, and guess what? Not much has come of out that. If anything, I want more books to s..."

Yes. I really hate the 'brotherly' blue line that creates issues when it comes to good cops knowingly not reporting the bad & the outcry for justice from society remains unheard/ignored.

I wish y'all were commenting back when it was still fresh in my mind six books ago...I didn't think it was YA at all. Just because the protagonist was in her teens? The subject matter was provocative and explosive. If anything it was more intellectually stimulating than most of current contemporary fiction. I was really disappointed in the lack of discussion in this forum last month.

Overall, I gave this book 4 stars. While I had some issues with it, there are real social issues & injustices in the Kiara's story. Being young & poor easily opens the doors of victimization. Add that to being a POC & the danger seems to multiply.

William wrote: "I wish y'all were commenting back when it was still fresh in my mind six books ago...I didn't think it was YA at all. Just because the protagonist was in her teens? The subject matter was provocati..."

100% agree. This is not for the YA shelf, at all. Six books ago? Dang, I can't go from one heavy book to another; after Nightcrawling I'm reading an easy book, just for a mind reset.

One discussion topic I would love to delve into, if somehow this thread was rekindled, is Kiara's mother. The one major criticism I have of this book, is that it's unclear how the mother is supposed to be framed. Is she someone well-meaning, with a redemption arc at the end? The fact that her highway-scream seemed to be a watershed moment for Kiara, suggests that there was a moment of understanding and redemption. The whole scene was pretty formulaic, even, like a trope I'd expect in a B-level movie. But, if the highway-scream scene is a feel-good moment of mutual understanding, it feels completely off. Just before that scene, the mother bizarrely suggests that what she did, to herself and to her family, is the equivalent of Kiara being a street walker. Is this the author saying that there's any equivalence to what the mother does and what Kiara does, or is this the author signaling that there's something mentally wrong about the mother?

In that same conversation, the mother showed that she was unable to sympathize with Kiara, outside of the frame of herself being a victim. Does that mean that the mother has narcissistic personality disorder? I don't think the book is clear on this. Also also, did the mother intentionally put the baby in the pool? The mother says otherwise, that it was an accident, but does the author signal anywhere that her character is not trustworthy? The book doesn't really play much with the theme of lies and deception--not in any way where Kiara is struggling and confused with what people say to her--so I don't think so. I really thought the book would reveal that mother did intentionally put the baby in the pool, which is realistic for a woman in post-partum depression with a history of mental illness (or at least, keep it open-ended whether or not the baby's death was intentional). I think mental illness in the family would fit well with the other themes in the book, and elevate the struggles of Kiara to a much higher level, but it's not clear to me that the author is signaling that the mother is mentally ill. If she's not mentally ill or suffering from a personality disorder, then her interactions with Kiara don't quite make sense and the joined scream would be a very unsatisfying ending to a very shallow redemption arc.

blereader wrote: "William wrote: "I wish y'all were commenting back when it was still fresh in my mind six books ago...I didn't think it was YA at all. Just because the protagonist was in her teens? The subject matt..."

OMG You bring up great points! I think mental illness is an absolute answer regarding Kiara's mother. Perhaps postpartum psychosis? While psychotic, new mothers have been known to believe they are saving their babies by doing the unthinkable. Your comments make me want to re-read this book again because I feel I may have 'skimmed' some of it more than read it. Of course, at 70 years old, there could be other reasons I didn't see the depth of some of this book. I look forward to your discussion points on future books!