The Mookse and the Gripes discussion

If I Survive You by Jonathan Escoffery (Fourth Estate)

It may be hard to discuss this one without a nuanced discussion of language, culture, and yes n*tionality. This book seems uniquely American in terms of its focus, approach, and style.

I read and listened to the first chapter months ago (both on Libby), and enjoyed it, but got distracted and didn't continue. The writing itself didn't seem like anything special, but I liked the story, of a mixed-race Jamaican boy struggling with his identity, and trying to figure out where he fits in.

I didn't expect to hear my hometown mentioned in the first story. so far an interesting look at racial constructs in America.

From main thread

Derek wrote: "The publisher originally described it as a book of interconnected stories."

It's called book of interconnected stories on the Booker website (which I think they take from the blurb) as well - although the judges' take calls it a novel.

David wrote: "I've always been puzzled by the view that "long-form fiction" would exclude a collection of stories, whether inter-connected or not. "Fiction" is the more malleable term."

Except there is another rule that specifically is designed to exclude collections which aren't connected:

1)e Every submitted work must be unified and substantial

The International Booker doesn't have that rule and also add to the blurb "long-form fiction or collection of short stories".

Ah yes, unified and substantial. So a run-of-the-mill collection of unrelated stories wouldn't qualify.

But it does sound like this is "unified."

Exactly - nothing to see here I think

I’m still counting it as fulfilling one of my predictions. But yes it seems completely fine. And a lot of novels are connected short stories, just they are normally called “chapters”!

I have read this book and the stories are definitely unified. It is not a collection of stand-alone short stories.

I read this last year for the National Book Award list. Don’t remember much about it, so I guess it didn’t make much of an impression. I’ll have to revisit/skim to see if anything comes back to me.

I must say I did not like this at all and almost DNF'd it. It definitely was marketed in the US at least as short stories, but they are very much inter-connected. It did not however read to me as a cohesive novel. Maybe that's splitting hairs. I very much hope that I like the other books on the list more than this.

Cindy, I think I've avoided this one since it was longlisted for the NBA last year. It's like there's a dark mark against those books. Is it coming of age / YA like the other books on last year's NBA?

Alwynne wrote: "[O]ne of the things that came up in Brandon Taylor's latest, a lot of students not interested in craft or in writing or reading in general but more in writing as a way of processing issues about their identity or their past trauma."

I think about what you said, Alwynne, in reference to Taylor's new book. The Escoffery seems to me like it's in this vein, a coming of age story where the main character is a stand in for the author and the primary aim of the book is an exercise in processing trauma and issues surrounding the author's identity.

I would love to see a satire of those novels, but I'm sure this one isn't satirical.

It is not YA in my opinion and it is not the type of satire you're referring to, Alwynne David.

It parodies the American tendency to define a person by a single term, especially regarding race. The main character's mixed ethnicities lead him to be variously labeled as Puerto Rican, Dominican, Cuban, and Black. He tries to fit in based on the label du jour. There are elements of both humor and sadness in the way this is all depicted.

David wrote: "Cindy, I think I've avoided this one since it was longlisted for the NBA last year. It's like there's a dark mark against those books. Is it coming of age / YA like the other books on last year's NBA?"

It isn't coming of age/YA David, or at least it did not feel that way to me. I just didn't find the writing particularly special and I found the interconnected stories mostly bleak and unsatisfying.

Joy D wrote: "It is not YA in my opinion and it is not the type of satire you're referring to, Alwynne. "

Okay now I'm baffled, haven't commented on this book or on this thread and love YA so don't regard it as automatically disparaging as a label. In fact I turn off notifications for M&G during Booker season and just dip in and out if I have a spare moment. I commented on the Bernstein because I've read and liked it and made some initial remarks on the Booker list but other than that I'm pretty much over this topic.

Alwynne - Joy was actually replying to two posts David but I think she thought she was replying to you as both David’s posts (ti which she responded) were in reply to you so started “Alwynne wrote …. “

Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "Alwynne - Joy was actually replying to two posts David but I think she thought she was replying to you as both David’s posts (ti which she responded) were in reply to you so started “Alwynne wrote ..."

How could David be replying to me when I haven't posted anything on this thread?

David quoted something you said on another thread in this thread

this comment

Then built on it to express his own view of his book

Which as it didn't have the standard Goodreads italics quote wasn't so obvious what you said and what David said (harder to spot "")

Hence the confusion!

All good though I hope - just read the post as "it is not the type of satire you're referring to, Alwynne David." Indeed if Joy edits it perhaps we delete all these posts :-)

I’m only three chapters into this one, but I’m really enjoying it so far. Unlike others who have commented, I do think the language here is special—not in a complex prose, highly literary sense, but in the sense that the author is playing around with different dialects and linking the language to different social groups. The protagonist in the first chapter tries on Jamaican patois and African American Vernacular English (AAVE) in an attempt to fit into two different racial/social groups. His attempts fail, and it’s quite heartbreaking really. The second chapter is written entirely in Jamaican patois (as well as 2nd person), and it’s fascinating. I might go so far as to say that language is the most interesting thing this book is doing, more than plot, characters, etc.

Alwynne, I get the sense that David pulled in a quote from you from another thread since it’s relevant to our discussion here. I think he just wanted to give you credit for your idea.

Finally, I completely agree with the others that this is a novel. I’d describe it as an episodic novel more than linked stories at this point, though I’m only a third of the way in, so perhaps the cohesion drops off a bit in the second half.

I edited the post above to add italics. Sorry for the confusion. Alwynne, I think what you said about Taylor over on the speculation thread was so insightful, not just about Taylor but also about a trend I see in US fiction. It's not a trend I'm particularly keen about, but there does seem to be a market for it.

Got to say, in relation to this digression, not sure Brandon Taylor has a leg to stand on when it comes to criticising writers who use fiction to process personal trauma! I don't know him, obviously, just strikes me from reading bits and pieces of his work.

Sorry for the confusion, Alwynne. I did not know that was a comment from another thread. I edited my comment above to address David.

Gwendolyn wrote: "The second chapter is written entirely in Jamaican patois (as well as 2nd person), and it’s fascinating. I might go so far as to say that language is the most interesting thing this book is doing, more than plot, characters, etc.."

I agree!

Gwendolyn wrote: "Finally, I completely agree with the others that this is a novel. I’d describe it as an episodic novel more than linked stories at this point, though I’m only a third of the way in, so perhaps the cohesion drops off a bit in the second half..."

Replying to my own post above…I’ve now finished this one, and the cohesion does fall apart a bit in the second half. It becomes more clear that these are linked short stories. For example, some of the later chapters/stories introduce characters in a way that would typically be done only the first time they appear in a novel, making the chapters seem more standalone. Also, there’s a chapter/story that relates to a side character. While compelling in its own right, it has almost nothing to do with the main narrative/characters. Still, the stories are linked enough to be clearly eligible for the Booker, in my opinion.

Also, I really liked this one overall. I still need to write up my review, but I’ll be giving this one 4 stars (5 stars is rare for me).

I think I had very similar views to you.

Joy D wrote: "Sorry for the confusion, Alwynne. I did not know that was a comment from another thread. I edited my comment above to address David."

No worries Joy, and glad this worked for you.

The first book I read in the long list and I really liked it. Trelawny is the common thread in this book and did not feel disjointed to me at all. (The cousin story is the odd one out but I also think one of the best)

Agree in my review I say

The most standalone story (and therefore the one perhaps closest to ruining the collection’s eligibility) is also one of the most accomplished “Splashdown”

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Eric Karl Anderson posted a very interesting video about this book on his channel last night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAnyY...

I found the range of comments (and points of view about the book) very interesting as well.

I am about halfway through and really enjoying the book so far. The story set in Jamaica was somewhat reminiscent of early V S Naipaul, I thought - in that it just talks about everyday life..I think the interconnected story format is much like the format Elizabeth Strout has used and she has been nominated a few times

Although Strout has only been longlisted/shortlisted on the Booker for two of her straight novels - My Name is Lucy Barton and Oh, William.

The connected short story collections - Anything is Possible and Olive Again - which she published between those novel nominations were not listed.

So I think she is more a counter example.

I did not love this novel, although I found it to be accomplished in places and certainly well written. The episodic nature of the chapters just did not carry through for me into a cohesive structure. Also, I did not feel much movement in the character development---they seemed to be forever stuck in the same space in each chapter, endlessly making the same kinds of choices. I will add that I listened to this one and loved the audiobook narrator's accents--it made the father's chapter sing.

I have pretty mixed feelings about this one. Fair to sate that I'm not a short story fan and these are definitely short stories. They are linked with the exception of Splashdown. This is the best story by far for me of a mixed quality bunch but, the connection to the main characters and their storyline is so tenuous that I feel this really sits outside the main narrative.
The first half is probably better than the second and I found myself bogged down in the story Independent Living which seems to take a long time to go nowhere fast. The following story If He suspected.. I just found too far fetched for my liking.
The thing also is you could quite easily skip one of the stories and lose nothing of any consequence.
Hope this is as far as this one goes.

Sound like your views were like mine - but at least we can say we have survived it.

Ouch!

I found this excellent. Top of my list so far (albeit with nine still to go!).

David wrote: "The Escoffery seems to me like it's in this vein, a coming of age story where the main character is a stand in for the author and the primary aim of the book is an exercise in processing trauma and issues surrounding the author's identity"

The opening story seemed exactly this and I was groaning about it, but although identity remains a theme it also branches out considerably to deal sharply with the intersection of race and class I thought, and more personally in the dysfunction of a family struggling in that context, which I’m thinking is not a correspondence to the author’s own family.

Agreed, Lee. Those were my initial impressions. I wasn’t entirely a fan of this, but now that I’ve read it I didn’t dislike it as much as I was expecting.

I keep forgetting this was even on the list.

Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I keep forgetting this was even on the list."

Same. Or perhaps wishing some other book was in its place. I appreciate that others are loving it but it just did not work for me.

I read this one last year when it was on the NBA longlist and did not rate it very high. It is definitely linked stories and the links are strong but, for me, not cohesive enough for it to be considered a novel. The identity theme was strong. The young man seemed to try to identify himself by how those around him characterized him. He never developed his own identity -- a lost soul.

Some way off my shortlist

https://www.instagram.com/p/CxLVlS5I9...