Georgette Heyer Fans discussion

The thread for those who've read the whole book - open spoilers can be expected for Bath Tangle but please use spoiler tags where necessary when mentioning other books.

I do like Fanny, Hector, Mrs. Floore, and Mr. Goring - some wonderful secondary characters in this book.

Ivo and Serena are such a passionate, temperamental, strong-willed pair, I think they’d be exhausting to spend a great deal of time around!

This isn’t an all-time favorite, but I do like it. I kind of felt the whole annoying ward clashing with Ivo, then heading to Bath was annoying and went on too long, I speed up the audiobook to get through that bit! I don’t have a lot of patience with melodramatic wannabe poets or drippy young misses like Emily! I get it, they’re young and thoughtless, but I enjoyed Serena giving Gerard what-for at the inn after she and Mr. Goring caught up with the “young lovers”.

oh, boy, Susan, I agree the scene where Serena treats Gerard like a thoughtless child was really good.

Luckily for him: can you imagine if the silly couple hadn't been caught?!

Jackie wrote: "oh, boy, Susan, I agree the scene where Serena treats Gerard like a thoughtless child was really good.

Luckily for him: can you imagine if the silly couple hadn't been caught?!"

I was thinking about that as I was reading it - I think Serena is probably right, no one would marry them, but if they hadn’t been stopped, there wouldn’t have been any choice but to marry. Although I thought Mr. Goring would probably step forward and offer for Emily- Mrs. Laleham would freak out, but everyone else would probably be pleased! Well, Gerard might play the drama, crushed poet card, but secretly be relieved! I actually couldn’t remember what happened, and thought that might indeed be the resolution, but my memory played me false (no surprise there!).

I do think Mr. Goring is definitely interested, but knows Mrs L would be difficult, so will bide his time (seems like a sensible, good sort). He’ll have grandmama on his side, and let’s face it, that is what counts here!

As for Gerard, I know a similarly melodramatic, moody, self centered young man, and they are trying to deal with! I hope he matures in time, doesn’t become a Lord Byron!

I feel really sorry for poor little Emily in this book - I'm so glad she's rescued by her grandmother in the end, (and has a worthy suitor in sight to boot!) but she has a truly horrible time of it in the meantime.
Dominated by her awful mother, then exploited by Rotherham purely as a vehicle for getting back at Serena and terrorised by him when he changes his mind, forced into an elopement with another man she cares nothing for just to escape him ... poor girl, she really isn't up to dealing with any of this nightmare.
In a way, her plight rather overshadows the fun of the rest of the book for me - I don't doubt that this kind of thing really happened, indeed still does happen in communities where arranged marriages are expected, and it's hard to take it lightheartedly.

Jenny wrote: "I feel really sorry for poor little Emily in this book - I'm so glad she's rescued by her grandmother in the end, (and has a worthy suitor in sight to boot!) but she has a truly horrible time of it..."

I was thinking the same about Emily, definitely ruins some of the “fun” when you think about her plight! I was just glad her rich (if common) grandmother was involved and protected her! I feel bad that there are more children still in the Laleham home, though- I hope Lady L doesn’t treat them the same as Emily (I guess it depends if they’re attractive enough to “take” on the Marriage Mart).

I really like Serena and I feel so bad for her. Realistically, she had to have known she wouldn't inherit and her money would be placed in the care of trustees but it's a shock to have it happen when she wasn't prepared. Her relationship with Ivo is complicated and I would probably feel and act just like Serena in her position.

He was cruel to little Emily but he did it on purpose and her grandmother had her back.

Serena's stepmother is a bit of a ninny and that secondary plot is not a appealing as Serena and Ivo's sparks flying.

QNPoohBear wrote: "I really like Serena and I feel so bad for her. Realistically, she had to have known she wouldn't inherit and her money would be placed in the care of trustees but it's a shock to have it happen wh..."

I was happy for Fanny, though, to be able to look forward to life with a man she loved and was attracted to - and not old enough to be her father! She was also clearly out of her depth serving as hostess at his social events - Serena and her late father belonged to a more sophisticated, politically savvy set! I think she can be herself with her soon to be second husband. I think they will be very well matched and happy together.

QNPoohBear wrote: "He was cruel to little Emily but he did it on purpose..."

You think that makes it better?!

Serena's stepmother is a bit of a ninny and that secondary plot is not a appealing as Serena and Ivo's sparks flying

I think that's the point - Fanny and Hector are foils to Serena and Ivo, showing up their relationship by contrast. It's something that GH does a lot, isn't it?

I don't think Fanny is a ninny, just gentle and quiet. Not as sharp as Serena, of course, and it makes the four members of the "Tangle" as miss-matched as possible.

Emily is a ninny, maybe, or "insipid" which is a word I learned reading Heyer. Ivo is definitely mean to her and maybe the harshest hero, luckily Serena loves him as nobody else should have to live with him.

Jackie wrote: "I don't think Fanny is a ninny, just gentle and quiet. ..."
And out of her depth in the Carlow world, as indeed, many a young Heyer heroine would have been - can you imagine Arabella, or Kitty (from Cotillion) or Phoebe (Sylvester) let alone Hero (Friday's Child) entertaining Cabinet Ministers?
She's young and unsophisticated and doesn't have Serena's self-confidence - and perhaps has felt herself a bit overshadowed by Serena; she's a rather humdrum personality, but not a ninny in the way that Emily is.

Jenny wrote: "Jackie wrote: "I don't think Fanny is a ninny, just gentle and quiet. ..."
And out of her depth in the Carlow world, as indeed, many a young Heyer heroine would have been - can you imagine Arabell..."

I would agree to all you say!

I still have to start this. It's been quite a while since I read it and I'm looking forward to it.

what I always wonder when I read Bath Tangle is why Serena jilted Ivo in the first place. he clearly loves her, though he has a weird way of showing it. he is also completely aggravated when he is trying so hard to make Emily cry off and Serena keeps thwarting his efforts. Emily is not a ninny, merely a 17 year old afraid of her mother.
I imagine her eventually marrying Ned, who will protect and adore her, and she will be able to live close to her grandmother.

Jenny wrote: "I feel really sorry for poor little Emily in this book - I'm so glad she's rescued by her grandmother in the end, (and has a worthy suitor in sight to boot!) but she has a truly horrible time of it..."

This is the weakness of the book for me, although GH shows her usual skill in persuading us about her characters' actions. With the society norms, Ivo doesn't have any choice but to be cruel to break an engagement that will make four people unhappy, but... that filthy temper!

I'm thinking though that this book may now be a 4★ read for me (& overtaken April Lady) Hmmm.

Sharyn wrote: "what I always wonder when I read Bath Tangle is why Serena jilted Ivo in the first place. he clearly loves her, though he has a weird way of showing it. he is also completely aggravated when he is ..."

I think Serena thinks marriage as a battleground didn't appeal. But then she finds that marriage to a sweet & gentle man who she can walk all over wasn't for her.

I love this quote;
Ivo “I'll open no gates for you, my girl! You'll take any fence I take, and we'll clear it neck and neck!”

This is a marriage of equals!

Sharyn wrote: "what I always wonder when I read Bath Tangle is why Serena jilted Ivo in the first place. he clearly loves her, though he has a weird way of showing it. he is also completely aggravated when he is ..."

Ivo's quite a bit older than Serena, isn't he? It could well be that when she was younger, and the age difference comparatively greater, she didn't feel as able to take him on on equal terms. Now she's older she realises that she can stand up to him and even have influence over him.

Emily is not a ninny, merely a 17 year old afraid of her mother...

Oh, I think she is! She hasn't the faintest idea, for example, that her mother has engineered her way into Ivo's presence at the Dower House that morning when she pretends she's got a recipe for Fanny, even though the mother has changed her mind about which way they would be walking as soon as she saw Ivo's carriage. And when she gets engaged to him, she prattles away happily to her grandmother about how rich she'll be and clearly hasn't given a single thought to her future husband's character, as any girl with a modicum of intelligence might have.

hmmm, good points, Jenny. But 17 is SO young.

Jackie wrote: "hmmm, good points, Jenny. But 17 is SO young."

Agreed, I was a junior in high school at 17 - the idea of marrying at that age would have been appalling!

Susan in NC wrote: "Jackie wrote: "hmmm, good points, Jenny. But 17 is SO young."

Agreed, I was a junior in high school at 17 - the idea of marrying at that age would have been appalling!"

Yes, but if you were offered the chance of marrying an older man, fabulously wealthy and high social status, it would have occurred to you even at 17 to wonder about his character, wouldn't it? Even if you had been brought up to think marrying a rich man was the goal of your life.

It's hard to say for sure at this distance, but I did make fairly bad decisions as a teenager and in my 20s so, no, not necessarily.

I might have assumed it all came in one package including an even temper!

Emily certainly is clueless - and encouraged by her mother to think of material things - but I thought that Ivo was kind to her until he had to provoke her into breaking the engagement? I don't think she had any reason to doubt his character until later in the story - and to be fair to Emily, Ivo applies to her father who accepts on her behalf. She didn't really have much choice.

When I was in my early 20s, I certainly put up with a lot of bad behaviour from men because I thought the real him was the nice side he showed me a first.

Nick wrote: "Emily certainly is clueless - and encouraged by her mother to think of material things - but I thought that Ivo was kind to her until he had to provoke her into breaking the engagement? I don't thi..."

Good points, Nick!

Emily seems also quite incurious - probably understandable given she has a mother who wouldn't encourage asking questions.

& Gerard using money he had borrowed from Ivo, to elope with Ivo's fiancée is hilarious!

Mrs Floore is so funny I don't think I have appreciated the other comic touches in this novel enough.

As I start my re-reading, I realise that GH assigned herself a difficult task with this novel: Ivo's and Serena's characters are both thorny, more complex and contradictory than most of her romance hero/heroines. Their dialogues are intricate: they growl and bark at each other like feral dogs and at the same time it becomes clear from the beginning that they understand - and somehow like - each other. GH writes good dialogues, as we know, and these are some of her best in their ambivalence.

Heyer does a good job of having Serena understand, and explain to Fanny, why Rotherham is the way he is. Neither is a warm-hearted person, but she is able to make him realize why he needed to dance with more than just one young woman at the dance and he does it not because he cares what anyone thinks (including Serena) but because he is basically not a bad person.

And they do act very poorly because they are so opinionated and passionate and that is why they are perfect for each other!

when I'm in the re-read I believe that, but I also get why some people just don't like them.

Jackie wrote: "Heyer does a good job of having Serena understand, and explain to Fanny, why Rotherham is the way he is. Neither is a warm-hearted person, but she is able to make him realize why he needed to dan..."

I am not there yet in my reading ... I was referring only to the scene after the funeral.

There is a difference between the two: Serena IS warm-hearted, for all her temper and impatience. She can empathise with Fanny and Emily although they are so different from herself.

This is not an easy, frothy re-read for me: throughout this book, there is a lot of pain and suffering beneath the surface.

Jenny wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Jackie wrote: "hmmm, good points, Jenny. But 17 is SO young."

Agreed, I was a junior in high school at 17 - the idea of marrying at that age would have been appalling!"

Yes, b..."
True, I agree.

sabagrey wrote: "As I start my re-reading, I realise that GH assigned herself a difficult task with this novel: Ivo's and Serena's characters are both thorny, more complex and contradictory than most of her romance..."

Excellent points, I agree, but you put my feelings into words! Ivo and Serena are not an easy romantic pairing to write for - they certainly wouldn’t appeal to everyone. But with the foil of the more traditional Regency romantic pairing (handsome, protective, gentlemanly Hector, who puts women on a pedestal, and sweet-natured, traditionally pretty and mild-mannered Fanny, who wants to be protected and cherished), there is something that appeals to most readers. And the comedy provided by secondary characters.

And even if you think Ivo is a bit of an insensitive brute, or Fanny too simple, for instance, you can at least appreciate Ivo would be good on your side in a scrape, and Fanny is easy to get along with!

Oh, I like Fanny. If you think too hard about her first marriage you can be sad about what happened to her. She deserves to be happy in her second.

Jackie wrote: "Neither is a warm-hearted person, but she is able to make him realize why he needed to dance with more than just one young woman at the dance and he does it not because he cares what anyone thinks (including Serena) but because he is basically not a bad person."

This absolutely hits the nail on the head! For me, Ivo is right on the knife-edge of being a thoroughly unlikeable character, but this core of decency is what pulls him back, and Serena's ability to perceive and enhance that is what makes the romance worthwhile!

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Oh, I like Fanny. If you think too hard about her first marriage you can be sad about what happened to her. She deserves to be happy in her second."

That’s how I feel - and when she starts telling Serena how wrong Ivo marrying Emily would be, and realizes she’s revealing her own feelings about her marriage, it’s rather heartbreaking!

Nick wrote: "Jackie wrote: "Neither is a warm-hearted person, but she is able to make him realize why he needed to dance with more than just one young woman at the dance and he does it not because he cares what..."

Good points about both characters, Nick.

Jackie wrote: "Heyer does a good job of having Serena understand, and explain to Fanny, why Rotherham is the way he is. Neither is a warm-hearted person, but she is able to make him realize why he needed to dan..."

Very wisely put, Jackie!

I find the relationship between Serena and Fanny to be one of the bright spots in the book. It's evident that Serena never resented Fanny's entrance into her and her father's life, but rather took the younger woman under her wing, like the kind of protective older sister Fanny didn't have in her own family. They're very different in temperament and don't always agree, but they truly care for each other. Strong friendships between women are not something you see a lot of in romances generally.

Margaret wrote: "Strong friendships between women are not something you see a lot of in romances generally ..."

No, and not in Heyer, much either - heroines' relationships with other women are mostly with mother-figures or servants, aren't they? Jenny and Lydia in Civil Contract is the closest comparison I can think of, or Elinor and Miss Beccles in Reluctant Widow.

Margaret wrote: "I find the relationship between Serena and Fanny to be one of the bright spots in the book. It's evident that Serena never resented Fanny's entrance into her and her father's life, but rather took ..."

I enjoy the way they play off each other, and admire each other - gives me a Lizzie and Jane Bennett vibe.

What do you think of Ivo's raging at Serena for trying to keep his engagement to Emily going? I've always thought he was being extremely unfair! How on earth was she supposed to guess that he was playing such a bizarre game?

And doesn't it defeat the object of all his efforts when he tells Emily's family not to bother sending a notice about the end of the engagement to the papers, because the announcement he was going to send would make it unnecessary, and convince everybody that he had treated Emily abominably?
Wasn't the whole point that nobody was to think it was he who had jilted Emily but rather that she had jilted him? Putting a notice in the papers to say that he was marrying Serena, while as far as anybody knows he was still engaged to Emily, surely means that in the eyes of Society he might just as well have told Emily straight off that he had changed his mind!

Jenny wrote: "Wasn't the whole point that nobody was to think it was he who had jilted Emily but rather that she had jilted him? ."

The game, according to GH, is that it is extremely improper for the man to terminate the engagement. So Ivo, in private, makes Emily do it - he would stand by his word. In public, however, he takes all the blame for bad behaviour - and as he is Ivo, he does not care.

What do you think of Ivo's raging at Serena for trying to keep his engagement to Emily going? I've always thought he was being extremely unfair!

of course he's unfair, of course he's highly irrational. - I wouldn't tolerate it, nor would you. But I trust Serena does, and understands. She has explained to Fanny much earlier that he rages against himself. The scene is more of a declaration of love than anything else - in very particular Ivo-Serena style, of course.

But I thought it was because being being jilted damaged a woman's reputation? That it would be assumed the man had found out something discreditable about her? And that another man might be unwilling to take on a woman who had been 'discarded'?

Jenny wrote: "But I thought it was because being being jilted damaged a woman's reputation? That it would be assumed the man had found out something discreditable about her? And that another man might be unwilli..."

oh ... I've understood it the other way round. That a gentleman damages his own reputation when he breaks his promise. When something dissreputable was found out about the woman, it was still she and her family who had to break the engagement - under pressure, if necessary.

Well, I don't know now! I wonder what the truth is?

I can see why it would be an ungentlemanly thing to do - and indeed why he could be sued for breach of promise - if the woman had started buying her trousseau and had missed the chance of other potential husbands by being taken off the market.

But then, if you think of Persuasion, and how Captain Wentworth (view spoiler)[felt he might find himself in honour bound to propose to Louisa after merely arousing expectations by paying her attention (hide spoiler)], then it's obvious there must be something more to it, since neither of those applied in that case.

Funny that you mention Persuasion, because I too was searching my memory for what Austen had to say on the subject as an authentic voice of the period. I could think of only two engagements, and they were both secret, (view spoiler)[namely Willoughby - more or less - and Churchill (hide spoiler)], so that the rules don't apply.

Thinking through your argument, I have to agree with you that Rotherham's actions are reprehensible. It is another example of GH's cavalier treatment of miscreants. ... I like to imagine a scene after the end of the book where Serena has recovered from her momentary state of loving acquiescence and has one of their thunderous, heated arguments with him about the issue of Emily - because she knows, and cares.

sabagrey wrote: "Funny that you mention Persuasion, because I too was searching my memory for what Austen had to say on the subject as an authentic voice of the period. I could think of only two engagements, and th..."

You forgot (view spoiler)[ Edward Ferrara and Lucy Steel! (hide spoiler)] ☺️

ꕥ AngeLivesToRead ꕥ wrote: "You forgot (view spoiler)[Edward Ferrara and Lucy Steel! (hide spoiler)] ☺️.."

Oh yes ! Perfect example of a man who couldn't back out of an engagement, even if it was secret. And in that case, being secret, it couldn't have been the woman's reputation that was at risk, could it?

Jenny wrote: "ꕥ AngeLivesToRead ꕥ wrote: "You forgot [spoilers removed] ☺️.."

Oh yes ! Perfect example of a man who couldn't back out of an engagement, even if it was secret. And in that case, being secret, it ..."

Agree - as discussed above, I always understood the idea of being a “gentleman” was so deeply important to (most) men of the time that they couldn’t live with the dishonor of breaking an engagement, just because of a change of heart. But maybe if they DID find something out about the bride that was hidden but was a deal-breaker, then it would be tolerated.

Isn't it just as well times changed! Imagine going through with an engagement because of honor and being unhappy for the rest of your life!!! A form of torture!

Yes, Serena was brave breaking her 1st engagement to Ivo off. GH's most feminist heroine I think.

A man would be deemed a cad and 'bad ton' if he broke off the engagement without due cause. (finding her in bed with another man might just be deemed reasonable grounds!).

He could be sued for breach of promise if he broke off an engagement. It was so much costlier (in more ways than one) for the man.

For someone in Serena's position, a wealthy member of the ton, an heiress - breaking off the engagement was hardly brave. She would still be seen as a catch so still sought after.

Far harder for a middle/working class girl - her reputation could be damaged irreparably and ruin any chance of her marrying in future.

Hard for all concerned really.

The laws were awful. I don't mean just the legal side of things. Society was very hypocritical really.

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "A man would be deemed a cad and 'bad ton' if he broke off the engagement without due cause..."

So this fate awaits Ivo, then, as the sudden announcement of his marriage to Serena makes it clear that it was really he who broke off the engagement to Emily? Does he really not mind being thought ungentlemanly?