The Pickwick Club discussion

My dear Pickwickians,

Another week has ended and another three chapters have also ended. I am faced with a difficult choice this week, an extremely difficult choice, almost worse than math. Here it is -- since I will be at church tomorrow, first for the service (obviously) then for a dinner, then for choir practice - which I would love to skip but since I'm the accompianist I probably shouldn't, my dilema is whether to open the thread early - Saturday instead of Sunday - or late Sunday evening. Depending on when you see this you will know how I solved my problem.

This week in Chapter 16 poor David returns to school, I say poor David because any return to school is sad to me. However, luckily for David this school seems to be as different from his first as Dr. Strong seems from Mr. Creakle. David says:

"Doctor Strong's was an excellent school; as different from Mr. Creakle's as good is from evil. It was very gravely and decorously ordered, and on a sound system; with an appeal, in everything, to the honour and good faith of the boys, and an avowed intention to rely on their possession of those qualities unless they proved themselves unworthy of it, which worked wonders. We all felt that we had a part in the management of the place, and in sustaining its character and dignity. Hence, we soon became warmly attached to it—I am sure I did for one, and I never knew, in all my time, of any other boy being otherwise—and learnt with a good will, desiring to do it credit. We had noble games out of hours, and plenty of liberty; but even then, as I remember, we were well spoken of in the town, and rarely did any disgrace, by our appearance or manner, to the reputation of Doctor Strong and Doctor Strong's boys."

This had me wondering, we know that the Wellington House Classical and Commercial Academy, run by William Jones, was the original for Mr. Creakle and his school, did Dickens ever attend a school that was a good experience, one like David hopefully will have at Dr. Strong's school? So I looked, and found that he was at the Wellington House after his time in the blacking warehouse, before the blacking experience he had attended first a preparatory day-school, a school for girls and boys to which he went with his sister Fanny. Then during the last two years of his residence at Chatham, he was sent to a school kept in Clover Lane by a Baptist minister named, Mr. William Giles. Forster says:

"Nor does the influence of Mr. Giles, such as it was, seem to have been other than favorable. Charles had himself a not ungrateful sense in after-years that this first of his masters, in his little-cared-for childhood, had pronounced him to be a boy of capacity; and when, about half-way through the publication of Pickwick, his old teacher sent a silver snuff-box with admiring inscription to the "inimitable Boz," it reminded him of praise far more precious obtained by him at his first year's examination in the Clover Lane academy, when his recitation of a piece out of the Humorist's Miscellany about Doctor Bolus had received, unless his youthful vanity bewildered him, a double encore."

In Chapter 16 we have people entering David's life that will show him kindness - I hope so anyway, Dr. Strong, Mrs. Strong, and we spend more time with Agnes and Mr. Wickfield. Unfortunately we also have characters that I certainly am not getting a favorable impression of so far. Jack Maldon didn't spend much time in our story, entering and exiting in the same chapter which I am very glad and I hope he remains in India for the rest of the book. It certainly was appropriate that just as Mr. Wickfield is telling David that there are people who abuse the kindness of Dr. Strong it isat that minute Jack Maldon should show up. Hopefully Mrs. Strong, Annie as Jack Maldon calls her doesn't have any of the feelings towards him that he seems to be hinting she does:

'I beg your pardon. It's only to say, on reflection,' observed a voice behind Uriah, as Uriah's head was pushed away, and the speaker's substituted—'pray excuse me for this intrusion—that as it seems I have no choice in the matter, the sooner I go abroad the better. My cousin Annie did say, when we talked of it, that she liked to have her friends within reach rather than to have them banished, and the old Doctor—'.....

'Thank'ee,' said the other. 'Much obliged. I don't want to look a gift-horse in the mouth, which is not a gracious thing to do; otherwise, I dare say, my cousin Annie could easily arrange it in her own way. I suppose Annie would only have to say to the old Doctor—'

I think Mr. Wickfield is one of the kind and caring people in the book but there seems to be something that is bothering him and I don't know what it is:

"When we had dined, we went upstairs again, where everything went on exactly as on the previous day. Agnes set the glasses and decanters in the same corner, and Mr. Wickfield sat down to drink, and drank a good deal.

He had drank wine that evening (or I fancied it), until his eyes were bloodshot. Not that I could see them now, for they were cast down, and shaded by his hand; but I had noticed them a little while before...

He did not supply the word; but pacing slowly to the place where he had sat, and mechanically going through the action of pouring wine from the empty decanter, set it down and paced back again."

Then we have Uriah Heep, a very umble person," the umblest person going," and apparently his mother is also very umble, they live in a umble abode and his father's calling was umble. If he continues to say that word the entire book I may be crazy by the end. Hopefully he'll be sent to India with Jack Maldon before long. What a description of him this was:

"He had a way of writhing when he wanted to express enthusiasm, which was very ugly; and which diverted my attention from the compliment he had paid my relation, to the snaky twistings of his throat and body. "

We learn that Dr. Strong had not been married for a year yet and had married for love, and how Annie had a world of poor relations ready to swarm the Doctor out of house and home, persons like the annoying Jack Maldon. Annie's mother, Mrs. Markleham, certainly makes it clear she sees nothing wrong with all her relatives coming to the doctor for money, but I believe it bothers Annie and I think she married him for love also, or at least has come to love him. I hope she soon starts kicking the relatives out, including her mother. Mrs. Markleham, known as 'The Old Soldier' by the boys, reminds me of Edith's mother in Dombey and Son, I didn't like her either.

At the end of the chapter Jack has finally left for India, he has left the house anyway, unfortunately he didn't take Uriah or Mrs. Markleham with him.

At the beginning of Chapter 17 Peggotty writes to David and tells him that the furniture at his old house has been sold, the Murdstones have moved, and the house is for sale or let. I wonder where they've disappeared to. David says:

"God knows I had no part in it while they remained there, but it pained me to think of the dear old place as altogether abandoned; of the weeds growing tall in the garden, and the fallen leaves lying thick and wet upon the paths. I imagined how the winds of winter would howl round it, how the cold rain would beat upon the window-glass, how the moon would make ghosts on the walls of the empty rooms, watching their solitude all night. I thought afresh of the grave in the churchyard, underneath the tree: and it seemed as if the house were dead too, now, and all connected with my father and mother were faded away."

Aunt Betsey visits David every third or fourth Saturday, but Mr. Dick comes to visit every other Wednesday and becomes a favorite of Doctor Strong. Mr. Dick and the doctor spend many hours walking together in the courtyard while the doctor reads his dictionary to Mr. Dick. During one of his visits Mr. Dick tells David that Miss Betsey recently had a strange nighttime encounter with a man who frightened her so badly that she fainted.

'Well, he wasn't there at all,' said Mr. Dick, 'until he came up behind her, and whispered. Then she turned round and fainted, and I stood still and looked at him, and he walked away; but that he should have been hiding ever since (in the ground or somewhere), is the most extraordinary thing!'

'HAS he been hiding ever since?' I asked.

'To be sure he has,' retorted Mr. Dick, nodding his head gravely. 'Never came out, till last night! We were walking last night, and he came up behind her again, and I knew him again.'

'And did he frighten my aunt again?'

'All of a shiver,' said Mr. Dick, counterfeiting that affection and making his teeth chatter. 'Held by the palings. Cried. But, Trotwood, come here,' getting me close to him, that he might whisper very softly; 'why did she give him money, boy, in the moonlight?'

'He was a beggar, perhaps.'

Mr. Dick shook his head, as utterly renouncing the suggestion; and having replied a great many times, and with great confidence, 'No beggar, no beggar, no beggar, sir!' went on to say, that from his window he had afterwards, and late at night, seen my aunt give this person money outside the garden rails in the moonlight, who then slunk away—into the ground again, as he thought probable—and was seen no more: while my aunt came hurriedly and secretly back into the house, and had, even that morning, been quite different from her usual self; which preyed on Mr. Dick's mind."

Neither Mr. Dick nor David understands the encounter but David finally decides that it must have been an attempt, or threat of an attempt, to take poor Mr. Dick from under his aunt's protection, and Aunt Betsey having kind feeling towards him had been persuaded to pay a price for his peace and quiet. I, however do not think this at all, I don't believe someone coming for Mr. Dick would make her faint, she may be frightened but I think she would be more angry then frightened. If I were guessing (which I am) I think it may be that long ago husband of hers who we were told in the first chapter used to beat her and tried to throw her out of a window, she finally paid him off and he went to India where:

"according to a wild legend in our family, he was once seen riding on an elephant, in company with a Baboon; but I think it must have been a Baboo—or a Begum. Anyhow, from India tidings of his death reached home, within ten years."

That's my guess as to who it may be, I think the rumors of his death were wrong, but we will find out sooner or later, at least I hope so. One Thursday morning after David sees Mr. Dick off at the coach he meets Uriah Heep who asks David to have tea with him and his mother, if their "umbleness" doesn't prevent him. Again with that word. David accepts the invitation, and that evening he meets Mrs. Heep, "the dead image of Uriah, only short." I didn't think she looked short in the illustration, but I'm not at the illustrations yet. Mrs. Heep joins her son in umble this and umble that then they proceed to "worm things out" of David about his past life, and then about Mr. Wickfleld and Agnes. David feels uncomfortable and wishes he could leave when Mr. Micawber suddenly appears. He has been walking down the street and through the open door, he spied David. David introduces Micawber to Uriah and his mother, then the two of them leave together and visit Mrs. Micawber, who is very glad to see David. The Micawbers are in terrible financial straits again, Mrs. Micawber explains that at Plymouth her family had been quite cool towards them, especially her husband and his abilities were not wanted there.

The next day, David is surprised to see Mr. Micawber and Uriah Heep "walk past, arm in arm." He learns when he dines with the Micawbers, that Mr. Micawber went home with Uriah and drank brandy and water. Micawber tells David that he is much impressed with Uriah. Although the next day David receives a note from Micawber saying all is over, as David rushes to the hotel worried about what the problem could be he happens to see "the London coach with Mr. and Mrs. Micawber up behind, Mr. Micawber the very picture of tranquil enjoyment."

The last chapter in this installment has the adult David recounting for us his years in Doctor Strong’s school:

"My school-days! The silent gliding on of my existence—the unseen, unfelt progress of my life—from childhood up to youth! Let me think, as I look back upon that flowing water, now a dry channel overgrown with leaves, whether there are any marks along its course, by which I can remember how it ran."

. We learn of his love for Miss Shepherd, a boarder at the Misses Nettingalls' establishment. He never talks to her but says she understands him and they live to be united. I love this part:

"Why do I secretly give Miss Shepherd twelve Brazil nuts for a present, I wonder? They are not expressive of affection, they are difficult to pack into a parcel of any regular shape, they are hard to crack, even in room doors, and they are oily when cracked; yet I feel that they are appropriate to Miss Shepherd."

One day she makes a face as him and laughs as he walks by and all is over. Now David is higher in the school and no longer dotes on any of the young ladies at Misses Nettingalls' even, "they were twice as many and twenty times as beautiful." Eventually he fights a butcher who he describes as "a broad-faced, bull-necked, young butcher, with rough red cheeks, an ill-conditioned mind, and an injurious tongue. His main use of this tongue, is, to disparage Doctor Strong's young gentlemen." Unfortunately David loses this first fight. Soon he is the head-boy, as he says:

"I am the head-boy, now! I look down on the line of boys below me, with a condescending interest in such of them as bring to my mind the boy I was myself, when I first came there. That little fellow seems to be no part of me; I remember him as something left behind upon the road of life—as something I have passed, rather than have actually been—and almost think of him as of someone else."

David is now seventeen and once again is in love, this time with Miss Larkins, a woman of thirty. David dreams of winning her and when he dances with her at a ball he is lost "in rapturous reflections." David says much to my amusement:

" I regularly take walks outside Mr. Larkins's house in the evening, though it cuts me to the heart to see the officers go in, or to hear them up in the drawing-room, where the eldest Miss Larkins plays the harp. I even walk, on two or three occasions, in a sickly, spoony manner, round and round the house after the family are gone to bed, wondering which is the eldest Miss Larkins's chamber (and pitching, I dare say now, on Mr. Larkins's instead); wishing that a fire would burst out; that the assembled crowd would stand appalled; that I, dashing through them with a ladder, might rear it against her window, save her in my arms, go back for something she had left behind, and perish in the flames. For I am generally disinterested in my love, and think I could be content to make a figure before Miss Larkins, and expire."

One day Agnes tells him that Miss Larkins is to be married to an elderly hop-grower, Mr. Chestle. David is "terribly dejected for about a week or two". The illustrations are calling me, maybe I'll get lucky and find a Kyd or two.

Kim, you're a riot! Who needs Dickens?! India, oh poor India, receives all the cast-offs. It would be rather pleasing to find those that you mentioned joining young Maldon. India has, and had, so many people that they might not suffer from a few more. ;-)

As usual I shall need my laptop to see the illustrations properly. My illustration of the unble Mrs Heep indeed makes her look more like a giant than a smaller version of Uriah.

What would we do without the constant comments, observations and insights of Dickens's friend and biographer John Forster? Their long friendship, collaboration and correspondence gives us a great insight into the life, times and world of Dickens. Even what Dickens did not recount to Forster, such as the gritty details of Dickens's life, shines a light on Dickens.

It's refreshing to read of a school that gets complimented. So far in our readings, schools that Dickens's characters have attended have been heavy on the lumps and bruises inflicted upon a child and short on stimulation and insights gained by a student. Mr. Strong appears to be a fine man, and his school a good place to be, to learn and to form part of a community. Like Kim, I'm not too sure about Jack Maldon. I'm glad he is shipping of to places far away, but many of Dickens's characters who go on long voyages tend to return. The fact that Annie was missing a "cherry red ribbon" and David saw something red in the hand of Jack as he left in the coach is not a good sign. I guess all Freudians could make much of this incident.

I was interested in another apparently lost object in this chapter. Agnes has forgotten her reticule and David returns to find it and return it to Agnes. Two sets of young couples. Jack apparently takes a ribbon from Annie; David finds a purse and returns it to Agnes. The frivolous contrasted to the valuable. One taken, one returned. Is Dickens signalling something here?

To me, this is a chapter that further establishes the importance of the past in this novel.

From Peggotty, David learns what has happened to his previous home. It is to be shut up and will be either let or sold. This indicates that David's past is being further dealt with and concluded. Mr. Dick writes about the past, the distant past. Mr. Strong studies and writes about the past, the ancient past. David is writing his history, the story of his past. Mr. Dick comments in this chapter "I suppose history never lies." Even David's aunt may have some secret from the past. While she takes great delight in chasing donkeys and their drivers from her property during the day, there is a mysterious stranger who has full access to her property and is met by her at night. Thus while his aunt has a very clear desire to exclude people from her life and property by day, she does include someone to come at night.

The present is, well, present in this chapter. From David's past comes Mr. Micawber who is still in full flight and still looking for employment.

Uriah Heep. Yuck. Heep and his mother are able to "[worm] things out of [David] that he had no desire to tell." Any information, recent or from David's past, in Uriah's hands, can't be good news.

Kim wrote: "And of course:



Uriah Heep

J. Clayton Clarke ("Kyd")

"I am well aware that I am the 'umblest person going, let the other be where he may. My mother is likewise a very 'umble person. We live in ..."

To me, this is the best of the Kyd depictions so far. I would not want to shake this person's hand.

Hmmm... I was a bit wary of Mr Micawber from previous chapters, probably from the discrepancy between his supposed financial issues and the fact he always seems to be feasting. Now meeting up with David at the Heep's, so coincidentally, Uriah and his mother getting all kinds of information out of David before that, then Uriah and Micawber spotted arm in arm, all seems a bit too shady for me. I found Micawber a bit iffy before. Now I certainly do. I can't help but think he's not so decent as he makes out. Shades of Fagin, perhaps?

Peter wrote: "Two sets of young couples. Jack apparently takes a ribbon from Annie; David finds a purse and returns it to Agnes. The frivolous contrasted to the valuable. One taken, one returned. Is Dickens signalling something here? ..."

I thought the same. The older David as narrator is very tender with his words about Agnes. She is angelic in his eye. I definitely sense a strong emotional connection that may have developed later. However it could possibly be one sided. Perhaps even foreshadowing of her possible demise? Especially since her father worries himself with the prospect of being without her.

In summary, Dickens certainly knows how to get people hanging for more!

I just started ch 16 tonight, but fell in love with this description of Mr. Strong in relation to his house...

"...almost as stiff and heavy as the great stone urns that flanked them [the rails and gates outside the house], and were set up, on the top of the red-brick wall, at regular distances all around the court, like sublimated skittles, for Tim to play at."

More anon. :)

I still have a soft spot for the Micawbers. I read DC years ago, but I can't remember much, so no danger of spoilers! Perhaps I'm wrong about them. They are blundering and certainly Mr Micawber is irresponsible financially, but I, as yet, still see them as guileless, bumbling innocents abroad for whom the world is a confusing place.

Kim wrote: "I, however do not think this at all, I don't believe someone coming for Mr. Dick would make her faint, she may be frightened but I think she would be more angry then frightened. If I were guessing (which I am) I think it may be that long ago husband of hers who we were told in the first chapter used to beat her and tried to throw her out of a window, she finally paid him off and he went to India ..."

I agree, Kim. I think Betsey's husband would be one of the few people who would have the power to frighten her and (apparently) extort money from her. Interesting that Mr. Dick associates King Charles' execution with the stranger, as well. When he so confidently rejects David's suggestion that the man is a beggar, perhaps it's because he picked up a sense of treachery instead. Mr. Dick is very perceptive in some respects.

Peter wrote: "Like Kim, I'm not too sure about Jack Maldon. I'm glad he is shipping of to places far away, but many of Dickens's characters who go on long voyages tend to return. The fact that Annie was missing a "cherry red ribbon" and David saw something red in the hand of Jack as he left in the coach is not a good sign. I guess all Freudians could make much of this incident. ..."

I disliked Annie's mother more than Jack Maldon. The 'Old Soldier' was so utterly callous toward her daughter's feelings in retelling Annie's acceptance of Dr. Strong's proposal, which the Soldier nearly boasted of maneuvering. There seems to be an ongoing theme of older men marrying younger women, from Clara & David Sr., to Miss Larkins & the hop-grower. A sign of the times, or the direction Dickens was heading in?

I was refraining from bringing up Freud, but since you did, Peter... what would he have made of Miss Murdstone's suspicion of a hidden man and her peering in pickle jars!

Peter, you're right about Dickens's concern that we ought to be reacquainted with the travellers who go off in search of a fortune or, at least, a better life. It happened in Barnaby Rudge and Dombey and Son. I can't think of an instance where the wayfarers don't return, but perhaps those events have slipped my mind.

Vanessa, you're so right about Miss Murdstone and the pickle jar. I remember thinking at the time that it was so apt for said character. She was less likely to be staring at a jar of strawberry preserves. I can imagine what Roald Dahl would have done with her; she might have found herself being pushed into, and flailing helplessly around, a huge vat of pickles.

As to Freud, he is probably useful when dealing with Dickens, and most Victorian writers in general, because as in those days it was considered indecent to refer to sexual issues directly, writers felt compelled to hint at them by using symbols, and in that case the unopened reticule and the RED ribbon that is carried off by Jack Maldon are easily deciphered and establish a contrast between these two female characters. Probably also Miss Murdstones obsession with a hidden man and her affinity to iron can be read in terms of Freud.

However, I always have slight misgivings as to when a Freudian interpretation is carried too far. I remember a university course where we talked about fairy tales and our teacher went on and on about a Freudian interpretation of "Hänsel and Gretel". When she said that the finger Hänsel had to stick through the bars of the cage was undoubtedly a phallic symbol, this was the last straw to me, who found it all a bit over the top, and I said that maybe the finger was just a finger seeing that Hänsel could not very well have squeezed his head through the bars of the cage.

Well, that teacher somehow reminded me of Dr. Eggelhofer in Billy Wilder's film "The Front Page" - but then I think that with regard to Dickens, a bit of Freud cannot do any harm ;-)

I'd also agree with Kim that the shady character that appears to be able to intimidate Aunt Betsey is none other than her husband. At least, I don't think it is Mr. Dick's brother or somebody acting in his behalf because the brother probably considers having Mr. Dick off his hands a good bargain.

These three chapters also further develop the motif of family life, and we have another dysfunctional couple (Peter pointed out the importance of the problems of married life in DC, I think): Obviously, there is something amiss between Dr. Strong as his young wife. While we might not yet know for sure that Annie married her husband for mercenary reasons, we can - I think - take it for granted that Mrs. Markleham sees some kind of cash cow in him, a poor fool whose purse and possibilities are to be bothered whenever there is some of her relations standing in need of a bit of financial support or of the pulling of strings. Quite obviously, Annie feels awkward at how her mother tries to exploit the doctor's benevolence. What we may also take for granted, I think, is that there is some kind of romance going on between Annie and Maldon.

Then there is another family, functional this time, i.e. the Heeps: They are definitely a well-oiled machine shuttlecocking David around and extricating all they want to know from him. In a way, they work exactly like the two other villains whose acquaintance we have made - the Murdstones.

As to the Wickfields, the father may feel a lot of love for his daughter but he should be careful not to stifle her - although there is no real danger of it because Agnes has been written by Dickens so as not to feel stifled when made the self-denying housekeeper and confidante.

I really enjoyed Chapter 18 since the panoramic description - several years are going by - is deftly handled by the Inimitable. It was a first-rate pleasure to read that chapter, and again we are given hints at marriage as a way of improving one's financial affairs: The eldest Miss Larkins seems to be enjoying the company of the Captain but in the end she is going to marry the well-to-do, elderly Mr. Chestle, who has been playing cards in the background.

Vanessa wrote: "Kim wrote: "I, however do not think this at all, I don't believe someone coming for Mr. Dick would make her faint, she may be frightened but I think she would be more angry then frightened. If I we..."

Kate wrote: "Hmmm... I was a bit wary of Mr Micawber from previous chapters, probably from the discrepancy between his supposed financial issues and the fact he always seems to be feasting. Now meeting up with ..."

Peter wrote: "What would we do without the constant comments, observations and insights of Dickens's friend and biographer John Forster? Their long friendship, collaboration and correspondence gives us a great ..."

he fact that Annie was missing a "cherry red ribbon" and David saw something red in the hand of Jack as he left in the coach is not a good sign. I guess all Freudians could make much of this incident
Yes...Very blatantly obvious, the "cherry red ribbons tied around her bosom."

The frivolous contrasted to the valuable. One taken, one returned. Is Dickens signalling something here......Perhaps even foreshadowing of her possible demise??
I thought the very same thing here Peter...More foreshadowing, me thinks of a union cut short. :)

Even David's aunt may have some secret from the past. While she takes great delight in chasing donkeys and their drivers from her property during the day, there is a mysterious stranger who has full access to her property and is met by her at night. Thus while his aunt has a very clear desire to exclude people from her life and property by day, she does include someone to come at night.
I was rather surprised by this as well, in fact at first, I thought Mr. Dick didn't know what he was talking about. However, David's recollection of Mr. Dicks disposition during their conversation led me to believe that there was a night dweller present at the Trotwood home. Do you have any idea who it could be...Like Kate, I thought it was her ex husband making a reappearance (just a guess)? From what I recall, it was speculated he passed while on travels...Correct?

Uriah Heep. Yuck. Heep and his mother are able to "[worm] things out of [David] that he had no desire to tell." Any information, recent or from David's past, in Uriah's hands, can't be good news.
Again, I argree...There's something about him that just seems very "slimy..." I found Uriah reading a great fat book, with such demonstrative attention, that his lank forefinger followed up every line as he read, and made clammy tracks along the page (or so I fully believed) like a snail (243). I've thought this since David's first glimpse of him at Mr. Wickfield's house and slowly learning about his "over the top" self-deprecation, it further confirms, for me, there is something not quite right about Mr. Heep. According to a footnote, Uriah Heep's character is based on Blifil from Tom Jones; he was the antagonist of the story, who's true vile nature was coated by "sugary hypocrisy-" Sounds about right, no? Also, there is a biblical connection to Uriah and David...Bathsheba was the wife of Uriah and David too was enamored by her, and so on, and so forth.

Now meeting up with David at the Heep's, so coincidentally, Uriah and his mother getting all kinds of information out of David before that, then Uriah and Micawber spotted arm in arm, all seems a bit too shady for me. I found Micawber a bit iffy before. Now I certainly do. I can't help but think he's not so decent as he makes out. Shades of Fagin, perhaps?
Okay, I must admit, Micawber's appearance at the Heep household made me very nervous, but then to see Heep and Micawber arm in arm... Well, I began to fear for David. I was actually scared David would be abducted from Uriah's house...I'm so glad I was wrong. I did find Mr. Micawber, in this section, to be slightly more off than usual; however, I don't sense a sinister side to him like I would associate with Fagen, at least not yet. Gosh, I hope Mr. Micawber doesn't end up being as such? In chapter XVII, the Micawbers made many references to Caesar; Mrs. Micawber when discussing Medway Coal Trade says, We came...and saw and then Mr. Micawber's letter to David, in it he wrote, The die is cast... telling David there were no prospects for them (271-273). The Micawbers "are linked" to the Romans, my footnote gives note.

Interesting that Mr. Dick associates King Charles' execution with the stranger, as well. When he so confidently rejects David's suggestion that the man is a beggar, perhaps it's because he picked up a sense of treachery instead. Mr. Dick is very perceptive in some respects.
Well, this "is" interesting because the references to King Charles were originally supposed to be allusions to "madness." This made sense to me when we first meet Mr. Dick because I thought he was not of sound mind...Didn't David first observe Mr. Dick to be licking a window before meeting him? As we've progressed in the story and as the King Charles references continue, I now perceive Mr. Dick to be full of whimsy and not as much a lack of sanity; so you're the allusion to treachery does sound better fitted for the beggar.


I find it phenomenal, the depth of character Dickens has the ability create...Each one, no matter how big or little their part, no matter how good or evil their soul, they are all very rich and full of texture, I think...Uriah Heep, Mr. Dick and Annie, are few of the many who come to mind.

Questions
I caught a glimpse...of Uriah Heep breathing into the pony's nostril, and immediately covering them with his hand, as if he were putting some spell upon him... What "was" he really doing?

Ami wrote: "Vanessa wrote: "Kim wrote: "I, however do not think this at all, I don't believe someone coming for Mr. Dick would make her faint, she may be frightened but I think she would be more angry then fri..."

Hi Ami

I enjoy reading your comments and responses. No one creates such a large panorama of characters. You are so right!

I confess to having no idea what the pony/Heep thing is all about. ... But it is certainly weird!

Vanessa wrote: "Peter wrote: "Like Kim, I'm not too sure about Jack Maldon. I'm glad he is shipping of to places far away, but many of Dickens's characters who go on long voyages tend to return. The fact that Anni..."

I had been thinking about how to respond to your question about Freud and Miss Murdstone but Tristram ( sore face and all) offered a very sound answer. Hilary has drawn our attention to Miss Murdstone's personality as being somewhat pickle-like.

I do find interesting the comparison between Miss Murdstone and Aunt Betsey which I never thought about until your recent posts.

Miss Murdstone is all iron and angles, dark and brooding, an enclosed person who is both the keeper of the keys and a lady of the locks. She is an indoor person who sits and broods. Consider her relationship to little David. She watches him, forces his to sit still, and locks him up both literally and emotionally. Aunt Betsey, in contrast, is the very opposite. While neither lady can be seen as liking males, David's aunt presents the reader with an interesting fact. She has taken in not one, but two males, both child-like, in order to care for them. Both Mr Dick and David are orphans, and she fully embraces her role as a mother figure. She encourages Mr. Dick's writing and finds David a good school to attend. David's aunt is seen as a woman of the outdoors, and thus the opposite of Miss. Murdstone. We read of Aunt Betsey outside in the garden and she takes delight in frequently running outdoors to chase the donkeys away. When the Murdstone's come to her home, and they meet indoors, Aunt Betsey is their match and better. She puts Miss. Murdstone in her place, and then, like the donkeys, chases the Murdstone's from her property.

Both women seem to have, see, or perceive to see, some unwanted visitor. We must await further developments. What's not to love about Dickens and his melodrama.

Peter wrote: "I confess to having no idea what the pony/Heep thing is all about. ... But it is certainly weird!"

I'm searching for the donkeys and this is what I found so far:

"In what is now The Dickens House Museum, Broadstairs, Kent,there lived a Miss Mary Pearson Strong. Miss Mary Pearson Strong is who Charles Dickens based much of the character of Miss Betsey Trotwood, in his novel David Copperfield. When Charles Dickens came to stay in Broadstairs for the first time in 1837 he was twenty-five years old and already famous, as the author of The Pickwick Papers. He took lodgings at number 12, High Street, where he worked on the book. He was to return to the town again and again. It was in Broadstairs that he found much of the inspiration for one of his most famous characters - Miss Betsey Trotwood, David Copperfield's aunt.

According to the reminiscences of Dickens's son Charles, Miss Strong was a kindly and charming old lady who fed him tea and cakes. He also remembered that she was firmly convinced of her right to stop the passage of donkeys in the front of her cottage. Miss Strong would chase the seaside donkey-boys from the piece of garden in front of her cottage (the garden is still there, and still belongs to the house, although it is across a busy road).

While he used the donkey incident for the character of Betsey Trotwood, Dickens described her cottage, with its square gravelled garden full of flowers, and parlour with its old-fashioned furniture, through the eyes of young David Copperfield, although in the novel its location was moved to Dover. This was done, it is thought, to avoid any embarrassment to Miss Strong."

Kim wrote: "Peter wrote: "I confess to having no idea what the pony/Heep thing is all about. ... But it is certainly weird!"

I'm searching for the donkeys and this is what I found so far:

"In what is now Th..."

Thank you for this Kim. I note that her name was Miss Strong. Would it be reasonable to assume that her name became the principal's name in the novel?

Great information, Kim. I love that. Yes, Peter it would seem quite a coincidence if it were not the influence for his name.

Vanessa wrote: "Kim wrote: "I, however do not think this at all, I don't believe someone coming for Mr. Dick would make her faint, she may be frightened but I think she would be more angry then frightened. If I we..."

Yes, Aunt Betsey's husband didn't occur to me, but it does make sense.

Having just finished Dombey and Son, I couldn't help but think of Mrs. Skewton and Edith when I read about the "Old Soldier" and Annie. It's clear that Annie and Jack love each other, flippant as Jack is, and that Annie married Dr. Strong to help her family and at her mother's insistence. Annie is not Edith, though perhaps she was more like Annie when she married Mr. Granger.

Uriah Heep is one of the slimiest characters ever conceived. Just reading about him makes my skin crawl. The bit with the pony was truly weird.

Poor David--quite the Romeo, in love with being in love...from lil Em'ly to Miss Shepherd to Miss Larkins.

Tristram wrote: "I really enjoyed Chapter 18 since the panoramic description - several years are going by - is deftly handled by the Inimitable. It was a first-rate pleasure to read that chapter, and again we are g..."

I also thought Dickens handled the passage of time really well--we get a good flavor of how he matured and grew and yet stayed the same in essentials (i.e., the trusting nature, the gullibility, the innocence).

What a pretty Miss Larkins the illustration in message 24 shows! I also like the name very much, as it reminds me of ... well, larks ;-)

... and of this wonderful song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHJJC...

Thanks again, Kim, for finding the information on Miss Strong and her connections with Aunt Betsey. I find that lots of Dickens characters are apparently based on real life figures and I cannot help thinking what interesting people Dickens knew. Where are all these one-of-a-kind people nowadays??? Saying that, I have to admit that a good friend of mine could have passed as the blueprint of Walter Sobchak from my favourite movie, "The Big Lebowski". You never know what will happen when you go into a café or some other place with him ;-) Just remember the scene about the toe and the family restaurant ...

Peter wrote: "an enclosed person who is both the keeper of the keys and a lady of the locks"

Oh Peter, not only what you say, but how you say it is an inspiration ;-)

Hilary wrote: "Miss Murdstone and the pickle jar. I remember thinking at the time that it was so apt for said character. She was less likely to be staring at a jar of strawberry preserves...."

I really did laugh out loud at your strawberry jam comment, Hilary :) The 'sour, bitter old maid' phrase also comes to mind with the pickles.

Tristram wrote: "As to Freud, he is probably useful when dealing with Dickens, and most Victorian writers in general, because as in those days it was considered indecent to refer to sexual issues directly, writers ..."

I agree the Freudian interpretation can be overdone, Tristram. But Miss Murdstone is such a nasty character, I needed it for comic relief. I'm still undecided if she wants to BE a man, or just wants a man.

Peter wrote: "Miss Murdstone is all iron and angles, dark and brooding, an enclosed person who is both the keeper of the keys and a lady of the locks. She is an indoor person who sits and broods...."

Yes, nice alliteration, Peter. And I had not thought of Betsey representing nature in contrast to Jane Murdstone's iron (perhaps also representing the Industrial Age?). They certainly apply their vigilance in different directions. (It may be a stretch in a different context, but the donkeys also reminded me of Dickens' 'the Law is a ass', given her bad experience with marriage.) High melodrama indeed!

Vanessa wrote: "I'm still undecided if she wants to BE a man, or just wants a man. "

:-)

Ami wrote: "Well, this "is" interesting because the references to King Charles were originally supposed to be allusions to "madness." This made sense to me when we first meet Mr. Dick because I thought he was not of sound mind..."

I was curious whether there were any connections between Charles I and the Dover area. Apparently Dover and other towns were held by Royalist forces during the Civil War, and there was a big battle at nearby Maidstone. That sounded familiar, so I looked back to find that a Dover boatman told David that his aunt was locked up in Maidstone Jail for child-stealing (which reminded me of Miss Murdstone and her steel purse/keys). The mayor of Maidstone was partly responsible for the 'regicide' of Charles I. Oddly coincidental. I imagine that Dickens knew much more about the history...

Thanks so much, Vanessa, for appreciating my 'jammy' comment. :-)

Ah Tristram, thanks for the link to that beautiful song. I've always loved Sinéad O'Connor. Also, I enjoyed Lebowski, but have forgotten so much of it. It's my sons' favourite film too.

Kim wrote: "This week in Chapter 16 poor David returns to school, I say poor David because any return to school is sad to me."

That surprises me. What would you have him do if not go to school? Spend all his days with Miss Betsy and Mr. Dick? Hardly an environment to promote a good education, is it? Or would you have him remain ignorant, or just read those books that Aunt Betsy and Mr. Dick happen to have around?

Or go back to work at his age?

And what for companionship his age? Play with the donkey boys? Does it sound like the sort of area which would have lots of well mannered children to interact with?

No. School is where he belongs.

I would say that school, if a good one, is by far the best place for a boy his age.

Kim wrote: "At the beginning of Chapter 17 Peggotty writes to David and tells him that the furniture at his old house has been sold, the Murdstones have moved, and the house is for sale or let. I wonder where they've disappeared to. "

And how Aunt Betsy knew where to write to them.

Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: "At the beginning of Chapter 17 Peggotty writes to David and tells him that the furniture at his old house has been sold, the Murdstones have moved, and the house is for sale or let. I w..."

True, I never thought of that, how did she know where they went? I hate school by the way, always will and nothing you can say will get me to say that I don't. So there. He could have been homeschooled, I think everyone in our valley now is homeschooled. I never even heard of it when I was a kid.

Kim wrote: "He could have been homeschooled,"

You would trust his education to Miss Betsey and Mr. Dick?

Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: "He could have been homeschooled,"

You would trust his education to Miss Betsey and Mr. Dick?"

I'm so sorry, but I couldn't help but laugh at the thought of this; in spite of how much I do enjoy reading about those two. I think David would be "enriched" by the idea of being at home with Miss Betsey and Mr. Dick, but not enlightened...Does this make sense? It's good for him to be in school, I agree.

..."Donkey boys"as companions. So funny!

Ah, you never know. Miss Betsey and Mr Dick may have hidden depths of which we know not. He could certainly have a history lesson about Charles I ...

Yes, that's what I was thinking - history from Mr. Dick, and writing - not just learning letters and sentences, but entire reports. Aunt Betsey and Mr Dick could teach him reading. Aunt Betsey could teach him math - she runs the entire household so I suppose there is math involved. She was outside with her plants - so there is botany, and what layers of dirt there are - although I still stick with the "who cares" that I thought when I was in school on that one. And chasing donkeys could be the physical exercise they make you do in school. :-}

Haha Kim ;-)

I remember coming in on the comments here about Mr Dick, since I'd just read a book about the Victorian artist Richard Dadd. But nobody seemed to pick up much on the historical connection. What is the connection between Mr Dick and King Charles the First?

The thing to bear in mind, when thinking of Mr. Dick's obsession with the idea that the facts in Charles the First's head had somehow got into his own, is the timing of the original serialisation of David Copperfield. It had started in May 1849, and by the time of the 4th issue - exactly when we meet Mr. Dick - it was August 1849.

And August 1849 was the Bicentenary of the execution of Charles I. No doubt most people reading the story would be aware of the importance to history of this beheaded monarch.

Really enjoying all the comments here :)

Tristram - Thank you for the great link to Sinead O'Connor's "Singing Bird", which I have just posted on my Facebook page :)

Jean wrote: "I remember coming in on the comments here about Mr Dick, since I'd just read a book about the Victorian artist Richard Dadd. But nobody seemed to pick up much on the historical connection. What is ..."

True, from what I remember of our conversation at this point (keeping in mind that I remember little of anything in life) we had given up on the Mr. Dick/King Charles connection. Thanks for filling me in.

Yes, I'll have forgotten it all in a few months too, Kim! Except for the great story :)

Jean wrote: "Yes, I'll have forgotten it all in a few months too, Kim! Except for the great story :)"

Who is David Copperfield?

Just kidding ;-))