Love the Lord with All Your Mind discussion

With Middle Eastern conflict surging yet again, and Israel everywhere in the news, I thought it might be helpful to discuss the topic of end times. Or Eschatology as theologians categorise it. I'm not sure if this was ever given a dedicated topic in the Christian Goodreaders group when that group had an active Theology discussion section.

Because it deals with what is yet to come, and therefore affects us all, this topic can evoke very emotive responses and opinions vary widely within orthodox Christianity. But that isn't a reason to avoid the topic. We can discuss in love, openness and without ethnic slurs. I thought I'd open discussion with a brief description of the major end-time views held by Christians, and how one view in particular interacts with modern-day Israel.

Many Christians, particular in the USA and UK, hold to a view of end times that expects many biblical prophesies to be fulfilled literally in a modern-day nation of Israel. Broadly, this view can be categorised as Dispensational (for the system of biblical periods or dispensations put forward by proponents) and can be characterised by a belief that Jesus will return for His Elect secretly in a rapture event before or during a definite end time period of tribulation that precedes the day of judgement and the new era. This view is not held by all Christians everywhere, and in fact is a relatively recent view, really only coming to prominence in the 1830s.

A very early view of end times, known in modern times as Amillennialism, gained support during the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. This was not just because the Reformers were keen believers in the doctrines of God's sovereignty (often grouped into the label of Calvinism), but because they largely approached theology through the lens of covenants and thus believed that the New Covenant Church was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant Israel. Many Reformers were also keen to paint the Papacy as the antichrist referred to in apocalyptic sections of scripture, which may have further removed their thoughts from Old Testament history.

People holding the Dispensational view sometimes characterise the Amillennial view as "Replacement Theology", referring to the Church "replacing" national Israel in prophetic fulfillment. People holding the Amillennial view sometimes characterise the Dispensational view as "hyper-literalistic" or "Zionistic". These characterisations are not helpful to any discussion when used derogatorily, though there are reasons on both sides that prompt these generalisations.

There are other views of end times, which can most easily be defined by reference to a particular view's perspective on the Rapture event in relation to the timing of the 1,000 year reign referred to in scripture, known as the Millennium.

Dispensationalists fall within the "Pre-Millennial" camp, those that believe that Jesus will return to earth to collect His Elect before establishing a literal 1,000 year reign on earth, which will be completed before the Judgement Day. But not all Pre-Millennialists are Dispensational. Long before Dispensationalism came to be, Historic Pre-Millennialism was a popular end-times view. An important difference between these two variations is expectation of the need for a modern-day nation of Israel and what might become of Israel in end times. Dispensationalism separates Israelites from Christians with different fates for both camps during the Millennium.

There is a Post-Millennial camp, that believe Jesus will not return to gather His Elect until after the 1,000 year reign. The key characteristic of this view is that during the 1,000 years, Christianity will grow throughout the world, gradually moving society closer to perfection and God's Kingdom being established prior to the Judgement Day.

The Amillennialists are so named because they do not believe the Millennium is a literal 1,000 years, though they do believe that this period commenced at Calvary and will end on the Last Day, the day of Judgement. Amillennialists therefore believe we are living during the Millennium period now. Obviously, it is sub-awesome to define yourselves by something you don't believe in, hence Amillennialists may refer to themselves as Idealists or Praeterists / Preterists (depending on which side of the Atlantic they reside).

Dispensational Pre-Millennialism is probably the most popular view held by modern western Christians. Books and movies like the hugely popular bestselling "Left Behind" series assume and support this view. Many of the modern Pentecostal denominations, which are populist and tend to attract large crowds of younger people (albeit with fairly high turnover rates too) assume this view. To the extent that these churches teach any theology, this view of end-times is the only one ever discussed. Predicting the date of the Rapture and the Last Day using current events are common traits of this view. Dispensational Pre-Millennialism also informed the political movement known as Zionism (Jewish Nationalism), and was instrumental in funding and forming the modern-day nation of Israel.

One of the clearest popular presentations of the dispensationalist approach to eschatology is Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth (1970). For those who are interested, my one-star review of that book is here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show... .

Commentaries and other writings about the last book of the New Testament, Revelation, understandably tend to deal very much with eschatology, since this is a significant theme in that book. Here's my review of what I regard as a very sound resource on Revelation, Revelation Explained (1981) by Lerry W. Fogle: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show... .

So, I am a dedicated Pan-millennialist. I firmly believe it will all pan out in the end.

That said, Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 and Paul said, "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28

In the Old Testament, when the nation of Israel turned away from God, God told Jeremiah: "So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you." (Jer. 7:16)

Because of the above, because of many other verses, and because of Scripture taken as a whole, I believe the descendants of Abraham were tasked by God to keep their line separate from the other, pagan nations of the Old Testament and teach God's commands and history to their children because God knew there would always be a remnant among them who kept his Word and passed it down until Christ came. They fulfilled that purpose, but from that time, it has been the job of the Church as a whole to fulfill that purpose.

Entirely corrupt, secular leaders run the modern nation of Israel. These leaders neither follow the will of the people they rule nor the will of God--which is for all men to accept Christ and preach His Gospel. They use war to murder innocents--including Christians. The Jeremiah passage is clear we should not pray for God to bless people who have turned their backs on God. Nor should we ask God to protect them from His wrath. Now, we should pray for our enemies, which I believe means that we should pray that they find God, but not anything beyond that.

That said, since Jesus died, those of Jewish descent have frequently suffered persecution--even long before Hitler came to power. Christians should never be the source of persecuting any other person because of their ethnic background or looks. The Bible is clear about that. Not persecuting doesn't, however, mean that I look the other way and give people the tools to murder innocents--regardless of the religious beliefs of those innocents.

Finally, I personally believe the verses talking about Iran have already happened with the Persian empire. That said, as a true Pan-millennialist, I believe there is enough evidence to support that this could also happen in the future, closer to the end. However, Israel (or anyone) attacking Iran in the misguided belief that they can bring about the end of the world is idiotic. God does things on His time, and the scripture is clear that Persia/Iran attacked unprovoked. Attacking them first only guarantees that the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled, and we will have many more years of history resetting before the end comes.

Jennifer, thanks for sharing your thoughts! You've brought out some very sound arguments against the whole basic premise of the dispensationalist theological system (as Nathan explains it in his very helpful descriptive post in message 1).

As Nathan noted, dispensationalism is a relatively new idea, originating in the early 1800s and first becoming prominent in the 1830s. Much more information on its origins and early history is provided in The Tribulation People (1975) by Arthur D. Katterjohn of Wheaton College. He holds a more futuristic interpretation of the "tribulation" than I do; but in the book, he primarily argues against the "pre-tribulation rapture" theory, and the book is a helpful resource for that reason. (I read it in 1976, and haven't reviewed it so far; but I hope to write a review soon.)