Banned Books discussion

Again, Florida

Florida is banning DEI programs in public colleges
The state has banned public colleges from using government funds for DEI programs and has replaced a core sociology course with one on American history.

https://www.msnbc.com/top-stories/lat...

OMG! What the hell is wrong with people??

@Kelly H.: do you object to DEI in schools or do you object to banning it?

Maybe job offers for students with a university degree should be contingent on them having had courses on diversity etc.

Manybooks wrote: "Maybe job offers for students with a university degree should be contingent on them having had courses on diversity etc."

why?

I think the point of the ban is to keep White Floridians from leaving the state. The students will have to attend state schools because their high school education won't allow them to compete with the rest of the country for the elite colleges and universities. Then they'll have to stay in state or move to another state that is on par with Florida in lack of education.

DEI isn't just about learning either, it's about a lot of other things that affect every aspect of the university. I'm in favor of it. It affects my work as an archivist. We're currently rethinking the words we use to describe people in our collections. The Library of Congress subject headings have been slow to catch up to the community standards. In a previous job I quietly edited the biographical profile of a person when transcribing it online. I could not allow the organization to use outdated terminology deemed offensive by the community.

Unfortunately, for DeSantis and other brainless politicians, they're confusing DEI with so-called "Critical Race Theory" which is a COURSE taught at law school. DEI = CRT= Hate America in their minds. It also is synonymous with LGBTQ+ rights like gender neutral bathrooms or allowing students to room with a roommate they feel most comfortable with and not just automatically match people who are the same sex. It's also not a coincidence many of these same states removing DEI measures were the same ones with Jim Crow laws.

All but one of the Little Rock Nine are still alive. They remember integrating that high school in Arkansas. They remember "segregation forever" . They were brave enough to fight that battle so kids today should not have to. Sadly, history repeats itself.

I object to banning it. We need to strive for diversity. Someone with the exact same GPA and test scores as I had who was from a Black or Latinx family worked much harder than I did and had to go through many more obstacles despite the traumas I had. I at least had people who believed in my abilities and was approved of by my teachers if not the students. :)

QNPoohBear wrote: "I think the point of the ban is to keep White Floridians from leaving the state. The students will have to attend state schools because their high school education won't allow them to compete with ..."

Well said.

QNPoohBear wrote: "I think the point of the ban is to keep White Floridians from leaving the state.

you make a number of, I think, unwarranted assumptions here. one, that only white Americans oppose DEI. two, that DEI just has to do with rice. (DEI has other dimensions as well.) there, where would they go? colleges throughout the US teach DEI.

Unfortunately, for DeSantis and other brainless politicians, they're confusing DEI with so-called "Critical Race Theory" which is a COURSE taught at law school.

CRT emerged as a specifically race-based area of focus of CSJ and expanded quite out of law schools, so you now have, for example, YA nonfiction based on the work of Ibram X. Kendi and even picture books based on CRT... as you surely know.

you see DEI as an extension of the mid 20th century civil rights movement (around seventy years ago!) but I don't see that way at all.

I see it as a mean to legitimatize discrimination.

Ria wrote: "CRT emerged as a specifically race-based area of focus of CSJ and expanded quite out of law schools, so you now have, for example, YA nonfiction based on the work of Ibram X. Kendi and even picture books based on CRT... as you surely know."

You mean The 1619 Project: Born on the Water? I read that one and it's just a history story. It doesn't state anything that isn't true. History doesn't teach people to hate America, it teaches us empathy, understanding and helps us acknowledge past wrongs so we can move forward.

I respectfully disagree with your belief that DEI is a legitimate excuse to discriminate. It affects all measures of life helping people, especially youth, feel safe and comfortable. I'm not a fan of putting trigger warnings on historical collections because I think that goes without saying, but working with Indigenous people on how to describe Indigenous people and their records is simply polite and inclusionary. Asking people their pronouns is polite and helps them feel included and feel good about themselves.

Do you hang out with any members of Gen Z? Sometimes they're a little too much for me but I'm learning a lot from my niece and from younger colleagues.

Kelly H. (Maybedog) wrote: "I object to banning it. We need to strive for diversity. Someone with the exact same GPA and test scores as I had who was from a Black or Latinx family worked much harder than I did and had to go t..."

but if a hispanic candidate scored sliiightly better than the black candidate or if a white candidate did better, you'd want (in the first scenario) to give the black candidate jump the queue and you'd want to give the black or hispanic candidate jump the queue.

DEI, works in practice, like a game of rock-paper-scissors where the groups deemed most oppressed get preferential treatment.

you have the right to live your life according to that credo, even to teach your kids that, but, by definition, states pay for state universities, so I'd want DEI either not taught in schools or to have good counterarguments made against DEI. you know, equal time.

DEI, of course, does not only have to do with race. ("race" has to do with a social construct anyway.)

Here's a DEI statement I just came across

https://laist.com/diversity-equity-an...

Ria wrote: "Kelly H. (Maybedog) wrote: "I object to banning it. We need to strive for diversity. Someone with the exact same GPA and test scores as I had who was from a Black or Latinx family worked much harde..."

yes, I would want them to "jump the queue." In hiring, I found that when I hired someone based on their interview not their skills as much, the minorities were just as hardworking and successful as their white counterparts who scored higher on our hi tech skills test. (We also sought to hire more women. Hi-tech is not a very diverse job corp.)

I'm just trying to give real world examples of this in regard to hiring and admitting. I agree it's so much more.

This isn't really a banned books topic but some good dialog is going on here and there's a little bit of correlation to the group subject. I'm going to let it continue for now but if we get way off topic, or it becomes less civil (you're all fine right now really good debating) I'll stop the discussion.

If anyone has a problem with my letting this discussion continue, please contact me directly.

In my field of archival work, DEI means listening, being respectful and understanding. We're working to be a more inclusive organization where everyone feels comfortable participating. At conferences the hotel will set up a prayer room, a breastfeeding room and/or gender neutral bathrooms. We're looking at how we describe collections, adding harmful content statements and using community input to change the way we describe the people in the collections. Also collecting stories from marginalized people who have been left out of the record previously. We've been working on that one for years.

In hiring they're looking at not just the candidates with the most education and experience but maybe ones with transferrable skills/experience. Some universities have been told they can't do any DEI measures and all the new statements they've put up online since 2020 have to come down. They're trying to figure out how to be creative and work around.

DEI would affect library work too in terms of books they can buy and librarians they can hire, how comfortable diverse librarians will feel. There are many places now I will not apply for a job, narrowing my choices even more and closing the window of opportunity.

You seem supportive of the idea until your last sentence. I’m confused.

I apologize for not being more in depth with my comments. I know I sound like an uneducated idiot. I know a lot more about this subject than I’m letting on. I just find topics like this depressing and grueling and I recently had a discussion with someone about this very same thing. It’s tiring. I’d rather read and work on my challenges. :)

@Kelly H. (Maybedog): letting people jump the queue has consequences.

if you do it widely enough then the quality of an institution will decline because you prioritize factors other than intelligence and talent.

the 20th century civil rights movement and feminism wanted equality because it wanted capable people not to get denied jobs which they deserved. women and racial minorities got discriminated against (as well as other groups, like older people). in the name of "equity" we have new form of discrimination, only this time conscious, rather than unconscious.

the policies that might have made sense in 1974 or even 1994 do not make sense in 2024.

@Kelly H. (Maybedog): when I mentioned YA and children's books based on Kendi's ideas, I didn't mean based on CRT ideas, but literally based on Kendi's work, or authored by him. a YA "remix" of his Stamped from the Beginning came out called Stamped. Kendi also wrote the absurdly named Antiracist Baby picture book, which sounds like something that would air on Adult Swim.

still, it really doesn't matter. whether authored by or based on Kendi's work or not, CRT ha filtered down to the YA or kid level.

so, about that...;

you call The 1612 Project "truth".

sure, absolutely. to you.

but I want to put it to you that in the Olden Days, we used to consider historical works as inevitably filtered through the value judgements and sensibilities of the authors and their social milieu and the evidence available that at that time. (an archaeological discovery might cause new information to come to light, for example.)

but, now, with the takeover of CSJ and CRT in knowledge-disseminating systems (colleges, legacy media, etc.) we have objectively correct and accurate history? for the first time ever?

if you truly buy into a religious or political truth, what I would call a tribal truth, then of course it represents truth to you.

but DEI does not have the right to indoctrinate kids into that tribal truth, in public schools.

perhaps in a private institution, like a religious private school (I went to one), yes, but not in a public one.

QNPoohBear wrote: "In my field of archival work, DEI means listening, being respectful and understanding."

yeah, to people playing (or forced to play) the DEI game. but if you come from outside that worldview (or reveal that you do) you've revealed yourself a a dangerous outsider "the community" must throw out.

I've yet to have any encounters with DEI-minded people or groups where I did not feel I had to stay hundreds of feet away from dangerous areas including when speaking of my own "marginalized group". (I won't go into which group. not relevant to this discussion.)

I read Antiracist Baby. It's for the parents to learn how to raise a child to be a wonderful, accepting human.

My window of opportunity for jobs is closing because I won't work for an institution that doesn't support fairness and equality. Neither will any of the young professionals from around here so that narrows the job prospects a lot more. (More applicants applying for local jobs.)

QNPoohBear wrote: "I read Antiracist Baby. It's for the parents to learn how to raise a child to be a wonderful, accepting human.

My window of opportunity for jobs is closing because I won't work fo..."

But who definites that? We have two (at least) sides here and we all think what we want is fair.

Ria, my point is that we need to look more at intelligence and talent and less at accomplishment. Just having a 4.0 GPA doesn't mean you're the smartest person in the room. Not being able to test well doesn't mean much either.

My best friend's daughter can't test worth shit. She gets horrible standardized test results. But she used a program where she got to start community college classes in high school so she got into college that route. Because of that, she graduated summa cum laude from the University of Washington, one of the best schools in the country. She now is going to have a hard time getting into a really good law school because she does fine on the LSATs at home but is overwhelmed with anxiety when sitting for tests. She hasn't taken them yet because she wants to do well and keeps studying and studying.

I had a 2.85 GPA out of high school but my tests scores were very impressive. When checking to see if a school had received my tests scores, the person checked and actually said "wow" and that my scores were really impressive. It was a really good school, too. But my GPA wasn't "wow." I couldn't get into the best schools so I had to go the easier to harder college route.

Which of us is smarter? I had a horrific childhood and if I hadn't been pushed, I would have dropped out and run away. I want schools and employers to look at the whole picture not just what someone has accomplished. That's relevant too,

I just think we can't look at just the top echelon. I think if we look at people with talent in other areas that is applicable, they're going to do just as well if not better than the guy who graduated from Stanford.

I could go on and on about wealth and poverty and how GIs coming home from WWII were given houses if they were white not Black (or any other color) and how owning property is a huge builder of wealth. As you appear to understand this subject, you must know this.

And now the books.

Florida college empties gender diversity library, tosses hundreds of books

https://www.aol.com/florida-college-e...

Of course they make excuses

"After Gannett's report was published, New College spokesperson Nathan March sent a statement saying the story was false. The college was carrying out two separate procedures: a routine maintenance of its campus library and removing materials from the GDC because the gender studies program no longer exists.

"A library needs to regularly review and renew its collection to ensure its materials are meeting the current needs of students and faculty," March wrote. "The images seen online of a dumpster of library materials is related to the standard weeding process."

March referenced Florida Statute 237 as the reason each book could not be donated or sold. However, Florida law states that New College could dispose of state-funded personal property by "selling or transferring the property to any other governmental entity ... private nonprofit agency ... (and) through a sale open to the public."

"He also said that, because no one claimed the GDC library of books from its previous home in the Hamilton Center, the books were moved to a donation box behind the library. The donation box sits several feet from where the book-filled dumpster sat, and New College's move-in day isn't until Aug. 23, meaning most students are not on campus yet.

Several students also said they were never told the GDC books were available to claim."

The college also discarded books from the Gender and Diversity Center, which was located across campus. The GDC books were purchased individually and not with state funds, Benavites said.

Follow-up to the New College book dump.

New College of Florida library dean placed on administrative leave after book disposal

https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/n...

Shannon Hausinger, New College of Florida's dean of the library, has been placed on administrative leave, a college spokesperson confirmed Monday.

Her departure comes following increased attention to the college's libraries after hundreds of books could be seen overflowing from a dumpster behind the Jane Bancroft Cook Library Thursday afternoon. With the disposing of library books, New College also disposed of materials from the now-defunct Gender and Diversity Center — a student-run and student-curated library of books on subjects such as the LGBTQ+ community, Black stories and women. These books lived across campus at the Hamilton Center, a student-life and dining building.

Details of Hausinger's departure, including reason and length, were unclear as of Monday afternoon. She had been with New College since February of 2024, according to her LinkedIn profile.

New College of Florida spokesperson Nathan March said Hausinger's leave was "taken after discovering that the library did not follow all of the state administrative requirements while conducting the routine disposition of materials."

It's unclear the specific state requirements were not met, but New College's original statement from Thursday referenced Florida Statute 273 as reason it could not donate books instead of throwing them away.

However, F.S. 273 states the college could donate or sell surplus books.

In a statement sent Monday afternoon to the college's students, faculty and staff, New College President Richard Corcoran acknowledged the public's frustration and concern surrounding the book disposal situation and criticized media reporting on it.

"Unfortunately, much of the coverage has been sensationalized, catering to the narratives of our critics," Corcoran wrote. "While the optics of seeing thousands of books in a dumpster are far from ideal, it is important to understand that the disposition of materials is a necessary process in libraries, and ensures that our collection remains relevant, up-to-date, and in good condition for our community’s use."

QNPoohBear wrote: "Follow-up to the New College book dump.

New College of Florida library dean placed on administrative leave after book disposal

https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/n......"

Good that the media reported this and let’s just hope that freedom of the press remains an entrenched right in the USA no matter who wins the election.

Would be nice if the library dean would also get a serious salary cut during her administrative leave.

Manybooks wrote: "Good that the media reported this and let’s just hope that freedom of the press remains an entrenched right in the USA no matter who wins the election.."

Trump already thinks the mainstream press is the enemy of the people.

I don't get the point of tossing all those books. At least recycle and reuse them for something. I don't see why these silly laws apply to colleges where students are adults and can choose what they want to learn and read on their own. I made a point of taking women's literature (dead white women + Toni Morrison), African-American literature (dead Black men + Alice Walker), in addition to the classic canon of Shakespeare, the romantic poets, Victorian Literature and American Lit to 1865. (mostly a repeat from grade school). Times have changed, the world is smaller, students aren't stupid and they're going to choose to go elsewhere for the information and then the college will close. What makes THIS incident so sad is this was a super liberal school queer kids and artsy kids who didn't fit the mainstream felt comfortable attending until DeSantis got ahold of it.

QNPoohBear wrote: "Manybooks wrote: "Good that the media reported this and let’s just hope that freedom of the press remains an entrenched right in the USA no matter who wins the election.."

Trump already thinks the..."

Yes, even if librarians are mandated to get rid of these book, throwing in the garbage, burning, in any way physically destroying them is ridiculous at best.

I've seen upcycled book cover purses and bags at flea markets and craft fairs. I've seen wreaths made from the pages of books. There's so much more you can do than dump them even if you're mandated not to sell them! I'm certain they ended up in the dumpster because of the content. And then they wonder why we say climate change is man made. Check the dump and ask that question again "What causes climate change?"

Here's an opinion piece with some good facts on what happened at New College and why

https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/o...

... " With Changes made at the school over the past 18 months, the approach was to strike first without warning, issue denials or excuses, then sweep away the remains of the littered battlefield.

This operational standard was in place even before the first meeting of the six new NCF trustees DeSantis put in place in January of 2023, when one, Christopher Rufo, spoke in militaristic terms of the board as a “landing team” and pledged a “shock and awe” campaign that would “lay siege” to the college’s “woke” programming.

While assuring students and faculty they would “welcome all voices” and “encourage passionate debate,” the Board of Trustees then quickly proceeded to fire the college’s president and make a decision behind closed doors to install Corcoran; replace the board’s attorney and eliminate the school’s diversity, equity and inclusion program.

Tenure was swiftly denied to five faculty members who had won approval of both the NCF faculty and the previous administration

The Gender Studies program was abolished

Student-created murals on campus buildings were painted over

Just before the start of classes last fall, upperclassmen assigned to the most accommodating campus dormitories were forced to cede their spots to newly recruited student athletes and live in nearby hotel rooms instead.

At last spring’s commencement, five students received disciplinary action for protesting the college’s conservative commencement speaker.

,Trustee Rufo has kept up his antagonizing comments on social media, where he referred to the recent book dump as “throwing out the trash.” (“Great job!” seconded a De Santis spokesperson, applauding the eradication of “propaganda.”)

It has long been rumored the intent of the New College transformation is to run the school into the ground, leaving the state with a valuable piece of prime bay front property

QNPoohBear wrote: "Here's an opinion piece with some good facts on what happened at New College and why

https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/o......"

Let's call Florida The Stalinist state of FLORIDASTAN.

And I bet the students enrolled in the gender studies program were also not allowed to complete their degrees either. When Carlton (an Ottawa university) got rid of its German literature undergraduate and graduate programs (which was stupid in my opinion, but enrolment had been sorely lacking), the students already enrolled were still able to complete their programs and ge their degrees.

The students kicked out of their dorm rooms should have occupied the building, but sigh, that would of course have meant mass arrests.

You know, one way to punish DeSantis and his morons would be for companies etc. to not consider the degrees offered by these colleges and universities as worthwhile and as acceptable for hiring, but that would also punish students and the Stalinist NANNY STATE politicians and administrators would not care either.

Here's some more follow-up and background to the New College situation. The books allowed to be rescued have been saved.

https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/2024...

Since its inception in 1960, New College has been a haven for liberal arts students seeking their own map of study. Some 30 years ago, students banded together to form a space in which they could explore identities. They created the Gender and Diversity Center, or GDC.

“It brought in a combination of students who were interested in gender issues and students who were interested in ethnic and racial identities,” said Sarah Hernandez, a longtime faculty member involved in diversity and equity initiatives.

The center functioned as a community book box of sorts. Faculty, students and visitors donated titles on gender, sexuality and feminism, memoirs from successful women, studies of racial diasporas, religious texts like the Koran and the Holy Bible, novels like H.G. Wells’ “War of the Worlds.” The space was open to all, decorated like a living room with homey rugs and student oil paintings.

Jump to January 2023. Gov. Ron DeSantis appointed six new members to the school’s board of trustees, stunning the student body with a plan to remake the school along the lines of private, Christian Hillsdale College.

New trustees included activist [extremist] Christopher Rufo who has called diversity, equity and inclusion programs “a vehicle for taking left wing orthodoxy from neo-Marxist intellectuals on the outside, injecting them into our bureaucracies in schools, corporations, even some churches now, and then using the power of the administration or the bureaucracy to manipulate human behavior to achieve left wing ideological objectives.”

The shakeup began a turbulent year of protests, staff departures and the dismantling of gender studies and diversity programs. The board fired the school’s president, replaced her with former Florida House speaker Richard Corcoran and made him one of the highest-paid college presidents in Florida.

New College began recruiting for sports programs and rebranded with a modern, naval motif. Murals were painted white. Even its buoyant blue became darker.

Sticky notes appeared on the walls of the Gender and Diversity Center, guidance for painters: NCF Blue.

The administration gave no notice of plans to dismantle the center.

Rather, Natalia Benavides heard from students on campus for summer that people were going in and out of the room. As an archivist for the center’s library, Benavides had a key. She started removing student art and furniture.

“And then I see these two piles of books in these large boxes.”

She headed to her job nearby, but an hour later, she returned and found the two boxes had been moved near a dumpster overflowing with books.

It’s important to note that we are talking about two sets of dumped books. In the dumpster was a pile culled from the main Jane Bancroft Cook Library, books purchased with state funds that must be disposed of in a certain way.

The books in the boxes came from the Gender and Diversity Center, all donated. There are no rules around what to do with those.

New College officials said the center’s books were free for the taking but that no one did — hence the move near the library “where they were later claimed by individuals planning to donate the books locally.” But Benavides believes the center’s castoffs were always destined for the dumpster, too.

“The boxes had broken,” she said. “So they couldn’t move the boxes, the books, into the dumpster where they were supposed to go, and they ended up on the side.”

She enlisted helpers. They stacked the books on the pavement. Police came. A librarian came. They told the students to stop taking books, Benavides said.

“Anybody with a pair of eyes could see that they were two different piles of books,” Benavides said.

After an hour, she said, officials decided to let students take the center’s books.

They saved almost the entire collection.

[A] letter came from Corcoran in the wake of media coverage. It targeted reporters for sensationalizing the story. It focused on the library books, explaining that roof leaks damaged them. It credited librarians with reviewing each discarded book.

"While the optics of seeing thousands of books in a dumpster are far from ideal, it is important to understand that the disposition of materials is a necessary process in libraries..."

The administration placed dean of the library Shannon Hausinger on administrative leave. School spokesperson Nathan March told the Sarasota Herald-Tribune that Hausinger, who had only been at New College since February, did not follow protocols.

“She’s very new,” said Hernandez. “What kind of guidance and support was she receiving? I have no idea. It concerns me that someone might be thrown under the bus because of the lack of communication happening at the institution.”

College officials said the law “precludes New College from selling, donating or transferring” materials purchased with state funds.

Except that’s not what the law says. It’s true that libraries do weed books, and no book can live forever. But the law leaves broad room for sales and donations. While some books were damaged, Benavides said, she took about 30 in good condition out of the dumpster.

In his letter, Corcoran largely ignored the issue of the gender and diversity books, addressing them with one sentence.

Some in the media have incorrectly misconstrued the repurposing of the former Gender and Diversity Center, whose books were made available to students and faculty separate from this process.

Decoding the darker heart of the matter takes no detective work. Rufo shared photos of the dumpsters on X.

“We abolished the gender studies program,” he wrote. “Now we’re throwing out the trash.”

There is a leak in the library. In his letter, Corocan said the school was working on repairs.

The library is changing. For instance, gender-neutral markers have disappeared from bathrooms. But the book collection still appears wide-ranging with topics ranging from censorship to climate change, a relief for those of us inclined to trust librarians.

It’s important, Hernandez said, to give things and people a chance. It’s good to fix leaky buildings. It’s good to welcome new minds, whether they play sports or look like the long-held notion of a New College student.

The dismantled center was created by students working to connect the dots of their own complicated identities in the 1990s. They will do it again as long as they have to.

The books, art and furniture the students saved are heading to a new location, possibly off-campus. Eventually, it will be open to all.

And the New College librarian just took the fall for the book tossing incident and has been fired.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/educati...

I'm glad the books were saved at least. The Seattle Public Library holds an annual event where all of the books they have had to removed to make way for other books are sold and the money donated to the Friends of Seattle Public Library. It's just the city library but it's a start.