Becoming a Man discussion

Our discussion of the book.

Roger:

Stephen:

Winston:

Thanks Lena. Such beautiful pictures.

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "Thanks Lena. Such beautiful pictures."

I made them with my smartphone from the TV screen.

I'm reading The Hidden Law, and Josh there is reading Borrowed Time! It's kinda Omen for our next read!:)

Yes!! I loved the Henry Rios series. :)

You should also put the Benjamin Justice series by John Morgan Wilson on your list. It is also set in LA. Mark Zubro has two mystery series set in Chicago and I am reading the first book of each series and these remind me of Nick Novak although the characters do seem much happier and one series actually involves a couple who solve the mysteries.

Sooooooo many fabulous books!!!

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "Yes!! I loved the Henry Rios series. :)

You should also put the Benjamin Justice series by John Morgan Wilson on your list. It is also set in LA. Mark Zubro has tw..."


They are on my list already, I just have to read them!:-P
I think I'll finish The Henry Rios series(I have all the books already!), Dave Brandstetter's and Don Strachey's mystery before I start a new mystery series! :)

I am working my way through the Benjamin Justice series (four more to go) and the two series by Greg Herren (Chanse Mcleod series and Scotty Bradley series). These two are set in New Orleans. I am also reading the mysteries by Steve Neil Johnson which are set in New York. Thankfully he doesn't have a long back list. :)

I am looking forward to the buddy read. I will be watching the documentary today!! At long last. I have just been so busy and tired. :(

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "I am working my way through the Benjamin Justice series (four more to go) and the two series by Greg Herren (Chanse Mcleod series and Scotty Bradley series). These two are set in New Orleans. I am ..."

You can watch it after we finish this book. You don't need to force yourself for it, you have to be in the proper mood for it! Maybe you'll got some more inspiration and courage after our BR!

Ok that's a better idea :) I feel so tired and I would rather watch it when I am alert :)

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "Ok that's a better idea :) I feel so tired and I would rather watch it when I am alert :)"

Maybe I'll become a wish to watch it the second time, after our BR! :)

Ije, how did Stephen die?! I thought because of AIDS, and now I read "died of homophobia, murdered by barbaric priests and petty bureaucrats." It wasn't suicide, or? I will watch this documentary after this book, I don't remember!(shame on me!)

I know that he meant it figuratively, but I just want to know for sure!

I think he died of an Aids related illness. I think PM was speaking figuratively when he describes Steven's death in this way.

There is an online guide to Paul Monette's papers at UCLA. It is brilliant because it summarises all his papers and journals. It is like a companion guide to his life.
http://findaid.oac.cdlib.org/findaid/...

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "I think he died of an Aids related illness. I think PM was speaking figuratively when he describes Steven's death in this way.
There is an online guide to Paul Monette's papers at UCLA. It is bril..."

The ones you want to read and to touch yourself! :)
I knew he died by AIDS, but it was so quickly! In this documentary you'll see, they travel together, make videos, laugh, have fun, and at the next scene, you get to know that Stephen died.
How far are you in the book? I've started today,in the morning. Will catch you up later!

I am just starting now. I am going to spend this morning reading it then I will have a visitor until the evening so I will spend most of tomorrow reading it. I will let you know how far i get this evening.

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "I am just starting now. I am going to spend this morning reading it then I will have a visitor until the evening so I will spend most of tomorrow reading it. I will let you know how far i get this ..."

I hope, I can be left in peace and read!

I will check in as I read anyway :)

I have a paperback and I am on page 20. I love the way he writes about his childhood. It is just so picturesque and has a way of painting images in my mind. It also reminds me of the way Michael Thomas Ford describes the childhood of the main characters in Full Circle.

His writing is just so beautiful and evocative. It makes me think about my own childhood.

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "I have a paperback and I am on page 20. I love the way he writes about his childhood. It is just so picturesque and has a way of painting images in my mind. It also reminds me of the way Michael Th..."

I have no idea on what page I am, I have an ebook version and have only positions or %. I'm enjoying his writing too, but I didn't expect nothing else from this book.

I'm wondering what do you think about this:

Nevertheless, it makes me sick inside, to hate the way my enemies hate. I understand that I'll never get around my rage at the tyranny of religion to see if there's anything Higher out there. The Bible is still the only dirty book I've ever read, at least in its current incarnation as a weapon of the homophobes.

I haven't reached this but I think he is expressing how he has experienced religion. It is interesting because he wasn't Roman Catholic and much of the condemnation he speaks about was coming from the RC church at the time, at least from the hierarchy. There were welcoming Churches and religious organisations that responded to the early AIDS epidemic but I think generally the leadership kept silent. So he is writing at a time when churches were either largely silent or condemning.

Thankfully not now. Of course there are still condemning voices but there are plenty of religious leaders from all faiths who are openly gay or openly affirming. The world has changed so much and in such a short time too. I hope we church leaders continue to change.

I am so pleased I managed to preach about him and tell his story in my church. It makes me feel that justice is being done:)

I wonder if the childhood bullies ever recognised their names when this book was published? Imagine being immortalised in a book as a childhood bully :0

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "I wonder if the childhood bullies ever recognised their names when this book was published? Imagine being immortalised in a book as a childhood bully :0"

I hope they did! Every time I come over bullies in my books, I wish I can materialize into the story and teach these assholes a life lesson for their future.

My friend has just left so I can settle down and read :). I am in the middle of chapter two. I cant complain though because my friend bought me a HUGE bottle of Baileys :)

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "My friend has just left so I can settle down and read :). I am in the middle of chapter two. I cant complain though because my friend bought me a HUGE bottle of Baileys :)"

hahaha! I'm at the beginning of the Chapter three, but I promised my hubby to watch a movie together(will do now), so I'll read a bit later, in bed. I'm so sad about all these being different and trying to be NORMAL feeling that boys at least of Paul Monette's generation(and not only) had to go through!..:(

Yes. He clearly felt very different from a young age and could sense the need to cover it up. And his mother realised too. It is really painful to think of this shadow in his childhood and it makes me think of young gay people today and the work that still needs to be done to affirm all young people irrespective of race, gender sexuality or anything else.

It is a fantastic book though. I would love to listen to this as an audio but there isn't an audio version.

i have just read the part about his college/university offers. One of the key themes in this story is how Paul was able to experience the privilege of class even though he was from an ordinary background. Of course these things still happen today but it is truly fascinating to read his first hand account of a privileged and 'upper class' education, what he described as Brahmin.

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "i have just read the part about his college/university offers. One of the key themes in this story is how Paul was able to experience the privilege of class even though he was from an ordinary back..."


The writing is superb! I'm enjoying it so much. I wish he would have had a long life and written more great books :(

I was just thinking the same thing. His death is heartbreaking. Such amazing talent. I am so glad he managed to write as much as he did. I am not surprised this book won the National Book Award. As you said the writing is superb.

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "Yes. He clearly felt very different from a young age and could sense the need to cover it up. And his mother realised too. It is really painful to think of this shadow in his childhood and it makes..."


It's for sure very sad for a mother to realize or to recognize her mistakes. But I can't even blame her for them-it was the 50s!

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "I was just thinking the same thing. His death is heartbreaking. Such amazing talent. I am so glad he managed to write as much as he did. I am not surprised this book won the National Book Award. As..."

I NEED to read his fiction books, I know already I'll like them. I'm normally not a non-fiction reader at all, the fact that I love his memoirs speaks for itself.

I think his mother was a really good mother. And she realised or must have suspected that he was gay. His parents were very loving and it must have hurt his father and brother so much to lose Paul and to see Paul grieving for Roger and Steven.

Lena♥Ribka wrote: "Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "I was just thinking the same thing. His death is heartbreaking. Such amazing talent. I am so glad he managed to write as much as he did. I am not surprised this bo..."

Yes you must read his fiction. I read Afterlife and really enjoyed it and I want to read Halfway Home soon. :) I have all his fiction :) and some of his poems too although I struggle to understand some of the poetry. I am not very good at appreciating poetry although I could really feel the grief in Love Alone poems.

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "I think his mother was a really good mother. And she realised or must have suspected that he was gay. His parents were very loving and it must have hurt his father and brother so much to lose Paul ..."

I think though, he couldn't completely forgive her for these "what are you boys doing", when she caught him with Kite. He mentioned this accident very often.

I have reached chapter five but I wont be able to continue until this afternoon.

I think his parents knew he was gay but they didn't know what to do about this or how to discuss it because in those days you didn't really speak about sex. Sex was a mystery and I think this also made it difficult for him to understand his sexuality. At the same time there were other people in his home town who were openly gay, like the son of the store owner, but it just seems as if Paul was very isolated and someone who wanted to fit in. He didnt want to be different but the class differences and differences in his sexuality just made everything more difficult.

Very different from today where we have so much information about everything and everywhere, and so many different ways of meeting people with similar interests, and so much social change.

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "I have reached chapter five but I wont be able to continue until this afternoon.

I think his parents knew he was gay but they didn't know what to do about this or how to discuss it because in thos..."



I didn't read a lot after the movie was over(it was a long one). I'm still at his 2 Andover years. Talking about the information...I read how he "without any formal instruction finally figured how to bring himself all the way off". It was funny to read about his panic(I posted this update), but on the other hand,it's pretty sad. Sex was not only a mystery,it was something dirty. The 60s were not easy years for gay guys.

I won't be able to read a lot during the day too! :(

I dont think the sixties were easy for anyone. There was so much social change and turbulence in the US: the civil rights movement, Vietnam war, assassination of President Kennedy, the Cold War etc etc I think Michael Ford illustrates this so well in Full Circle. I think the only difference in that story was that the characters explored their sexuality together as on/off friends and so they were not as isolated (also it is fiction) but Paul seemed quite isolated and hid this isolation on the inside.

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "I dont think the sixties were easy for anyone. There was so much social change and turbulence in the US: the civil rights movement, Vietnam war, assassination of President Kennedy, the Cold War etc..."

Totally agree.

Ije, have you read(of course you did, I'm behind!) about his mother walked into his room without knocking when he took care of(you know what!)
And it was again:

I managed to slip the magazine under the album cover, but guiltily. The swelling in my pants I covered by hugging my knees. Whatever she'd come in to say was quickly settled, but clearly I was hiding something. Her eyes darted to the album cover, and she inquired with a grisly attempt at empathy, "Is there anything you want to tell me?"
Now honestly, what else could I have been hiding except a hard-on and some porn? State secrets? In a flash the two of us were back to being out of our depth, and I was ten instead of seventeen. What is the etiquette, after all, of walking in on your son's jackoff session?
"No," I answered succinctly, but knowing that we'd just picked up the interrogation of seven years before, the question still unanswered: What were you doing with Kite?

It is also almost the place where he named his family "a messy family". I have a feeling that he made peace with his mother much much later.

Yes. I think she wanted to catch him out. My son is 24 and there is only the two of us living in a small apartment but I started to knock on his door once he hit late teens. She did it on purpose and then later she searches his room. I know it was a different era but he was 17 and young men in those days matured a lot earlier and were working and setting up families from young ages so what was she looking for?

I think she wanted to catch him out as gay and prove to herself that he was gay. I dont know why she felt the need to do that because she already knew from when his brother told her about the boys that were calling him queer.

I am at chapter five when he is visiting Cambridge University and travelling in. Europe and it has just struck me how truly clever Paul Monette was. Not only was he clever and intelligent in the academic sense but also in hiding himself and creating another personality for himself. This should have been a huge strain for him and I am sure it was because he mentions he had therapy, but to hide his sexuality for so long and in such artful ways would be too much for many people. It must have taken so much out of him emotionally.

Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "Yes. I think she wanted to catch him out. My son is 24 and there is only the two of us living in a small apartment but I started to knock on his door once he hit late teens. She did it on purpose a..."

Of course she did it on purpose! They thought that if they would catch him early enough and talk him out of "being gay", he would change and would be normal. This "being normal" hunted him through all his growing!:( It is again the lack of information, not only for teens, but also for the adult and parents! Remember when he talked with his father in his car? When his father said

"There is nothing wrong with those girlie magazines, that's perfectly natural, you're almost a man, But the homosexual ones...that's not good."

You are over 50% then, okay!

In many ways it makes sense for him to have been so closeted because the sodomy laws which criminalised homosexuality only started being revoked from 1962/63 and some were only repealed by federal law in 2003!!

Which actually explains why the debates on gay marriage in the US are so polarised. Homosexuality was decriminalised in the UK in 1967.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy...

So all of his hiding and his parents concerns actually make sense. I know that there is a long history of gay rights in the US and he mentions early gay rights organisations set up in the 1950's but I think the AIDS pandemic forced a lot of people to come out of the closet to fight for treatment and for their rights because to stay silent in the face of Government apathy would have meant death.

Thats why his writing after Roger's death is so powerful.

A Chronology of Paul MonetteBy Paula Zeszotarski

October 16,1945 Paul Landry Monette born in Lawrence, Massachusetts

1951 Brother Robert Monette born

1963 Graduated from Phillips Andover Academy

September 1963 Entered Yale University as a member of Jonathan Edwards College

Summer 1966 On scholarship to Cambridge University to work on senior thesis and travel in Europe

1967 Graduated from Yale University with Bachelor of Arts in English

September1967-June 1968 Spent year on Carnegie Teaching Fellowship at Yale

November 1968-June 1970 Taught at Cheshire Academy, Cheshire, Connecticut

September1970-1976 Taught at Milton Academy, Milton, Massachusetts and Pine Manor College and lived in Boston

September 4, 1974 Met Roger Horwitz

1975 Carpenter at the Asylum published

November 1977 Moved with Roger to Los Angeles

1978 First novel published, Taking Care of Mrs. Carroll

1979 Gold Diggers published

1981 Long Shot published

1981No Witnesses published

1983 First novelization published, Scarface November29,

1984 Receives City of West Hollywood Certificate of Commendation

October 22,1986 Roger Horwitz dies

1988 Love Alone: 18 Elegies for Rog published

1988 Borrowed Time published

1989 Borrowed Time nominated for National Book Critic's Circle Award

1990 Afterlife published February 22,

1990 PM's mother dies

September 19 1990 Stephen Kolzak dies

1990(?)Met Winston Wilde

1991Halfway Home published

1992 Becoming a Man published

1992*Won National Book [Critic's Circle] Award for Becoming a Man* the award was for 1992 but was given in 1993 June

1994 Last Watch of the Night published

July 1994 West of Yesterday, East of Summer published

February 10 1995 PM dies of complications from AIDS