George Orwell Matters! discussion

Stop in here to join a discussion of Yevgeny Zamyatin's We.

Why read a Russian novel in a group organized for lovers of Orwell? We was likely part of Orwell's inspiration for 1984:
- "The Century-Old Russian Novel Said to Have Inspired ‘1984’"
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/02/bo...
- "1984 thoughtcrime? Does it matter that George Orwell pinched the plot?" https://www.theguardian.com/books/boo...

After reading it, we will read Orwell's 1946 essay "Freedom and Happiness," which is a review of Zamyatin's book. In that that essay, George Orwell states:

Several years after hearing of its existence, I have at last got my hands on a copy of Zamyatin’s We, which is one of the literary curiosities of this book-burning age.
... The first thing anyone would notice about We is the fact—never pointed out, I believe—that Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World must be partly derived from it. Both books deal with the rebellion of the primitive human spirit against a rationalised, mechanised, painless world, and both stories are supposed to take place about six hundred years hence.
https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-...

Who else is interested in reading We?

This novel is described as page-turning science fiction adventure and a masterpiece of wit and black humor that accurately predicted the horrors of Stalinism. We had the distinction of being the first novel officially banned in the Soviet Union.

Margaret Atwood writes: “Stalin’s show trials and mass purges would not take place for a decade — yet here is the general plan of later dictatorships and surveillance capitalisms, laid out in ‘We’ as if in a blueprint.”

Ursula K. Le Guin called We "the best single work of science fiction yet written."

I have it too - on kindle as part of a bargain pack with 4 more dystopian novels, all for £1.49! https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...

Maybe it's available on other countries' kindles?

I've read this book twice-it's good.

It looks as if there are about 10 English translations, none of which has been acclaimed as "definitive." It looks as if the inexpensive editions are usually the Gregory Zilboorg translation from 1924.

For anyone who has read it -- is there a particular English translation you would recommend? or suggest avoiding?

Hugo-winning science fiction writer Bruce Sterling wrote an introduction for the 2006 Modern Library edition of We that is a delightful short read, and it has been published online. The subtitle is taken from Zamyatin's short and funny essay "I Am Afraid:"*
"We: Madmen, Hermits, Heretics, Dreamers, Rebels, and Skeptics"
https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/books/w...

Sterling's short essay offers a short and interesting overview of Zamyatin's life and travels. He mentions that Zamyatin returned to Russia between the revolutions of 1917 and was given a literary job by Maxim Gorky. Zamyatin, attacked by Stalinist party-line critics, emigrated to Paris in 1931. Looking up information about film adaptations, I saw that he evidently worked with Gorky again, as there is a 1936 Jean Renoir film, Les bas-fonds (The Lower Depths), that lists Gorky and Zamyatin as writers.

*If that subtitle makes you curious, you can read Zamyatin's essay "I Am Afraid" here: https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1921-2/...

For anyone who enjoys or enjoyed We, there have been several adaptations!

There's a Russian film to watch for, now listed as a 2024 release. Trailer: https://youtu.be/iYIidz3kusM?si=ZpI8O...
IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12518970/


The Glass Fortress" is a 2016 music and video project by Alain Bourret, and it looks gorgeous.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ6Au...
Bourret's paper about the project: https://www.academia.edu/11088645/The...


Wir (1982) is a German film that is also an adaptation of We.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T9qh...

This looks amazing! Has anyone seen any of these?

Bionic Jean wrote: "This looks amazing! Has anyone seen any of these?"

I have not yet, but will when I finish the book.

If anyone is moved to read the book, check in here and let me know. It looks as if most people interested enough to read it, have already done so. I am just a bit behind!

I'll be interested to hear about any film too!

We are half way through our time on this, but still have another month on this one! Do join in if you can; Jennifer has told us what an influential novel this was on George Orwell 😊

I've requested the book from the library and should have it sometime next week.

Great, Petra!

That's fabulous, Petra! I'd be happy to discuss the book!

This book has been at the back of my mind for years. Whenever someone mentions it, I think about reading it, but don't get to it. Now seems like the perfect time. What's better than reading it with others?

"One day all 86,400 seconds will be on the Table of Hours."

What a horrible thought! To have every second of every day scheduled and accounted for.

Petra wrote: ""One day all 86,400 seconds will be on the Table of Hours."

What a horrible thought! To have every second of every day scheduled and accounted for."

Petra, what a great quotation and idea to call out!

Things have already gotten interesting at this point (view spoiler)[ (This is in the chapter "Record 3: Jacket / Wall / The Table," for anyone checking in.) (hide spoiler)], yes? I loved the idea of the Railroad Timetable as a monument of ancient literature! And the idea of there being (just) two Personal Hours a day -- wow!

Is anyone else here a fan of Madeleine L'Engle's A Wrinkle in Time? The planet Camazotz in that book owes something to this vision from We. I am thinking of the play hour when all the children in the suburbs are outside playing, bouncing their balls in the rhythm dictated by IT.

I also wondered if anyone else was reminded a bit of Cheaper by the Dozen? It's a funny book that includes a dad who tries to bring efficiency (things like time-motion studies) to family life. Cheaper by the Dozen pokes fun at Taylorism. Taylorism is named after an American engineer Frederick Winslow Taylor (1856-1915) and is "a method of industrial management designed to increase efficiency and productivity. For this purpose, workflows and work processes are examined and optimized precisely and systematically in order to reduce costs and increase quality."

Oops....didn't think to mention which Record the quote was at in the book. Sorry.

I was apalled at the 2 personal hours a day....especially with mandatory walks.... (view spoiler)[..marches in rows of 4!! (hide spoiler)].
But I'm not one for a lot of structure and timetables.

I can see the similarites that Orwell used in 1984. There's a feeling of losing the self to the whole, of constantly being observed and of having lost one's individuality.
The society in We isn't at dark a society as in 1984 (yet?).

I liked A Wrinkle in Time. It's a story I never forgot and I read it in childhood. That scene in the suburbs was so creepy.

I also loved that the Railroad Timetable was mentioned and considered a relic of the past. It kind of makes one wonder what from our time will make it through the ages. It might be something we consider important or something like the Railroad Timetable, that we don't consider at all in our daily lives.

Sorry, Jennifer, I had to leave town and forgot the book at home. I'm back now and will continue reading.

Petra wrote: "Sorry, Jennifer, I had to leave town and forgot the book at home. I'm back now and will continue reading."

No worries at all! I am happy to chat more when it suits.

I hope you had a great trip!

Record 16

I'm not as enthralled with how this is unfolding and keep comparing it to 1984's perfection. Probably not a good thing to do. That said, I still like this story and feel sorry for I-330.

For one thing, the story of Winston & Julia was focussed, determined, thought out. (view spoiler)[The story of D-503 & I-330 is manipulated, with I-330 feeling trapped (hide spoiler)].

I think the difference is Choice. Winston had choice, I-330 doesn't. He broke one rule and is now complicite in something he had no wanting for in the beginning.

It's said that God gave us choice. By eliminating the Ancient God from their society, it seems that perhaps the people's Choice was also taken away. It's left the people as nothing more than robots going through each day doing as expected. I wonder where the joy is in the day?

I find D-503 very manipulative. She has her posse of the S-shaped man and the thin doctor. She brings danger to those who she finds interesting for one reason or another. She, however, may (must, I think) be sure that she herself is safe from any consequences of any situation that she brings into being. This is one person I wouldn't want to meet.

Petra, these are really interesting thoughts, thank you! I wonder if George Orwell will pick up on any of these ideas. Perhaps he was trying to "improve" on the work as he saw it?

Yesterday was the official end date for this read. Please let us know here if you would like a little longer, before Jennifer moves to discussing George Orwell's review of We by Yevgeny Zamyatin.

I'm continuing to read the book, Jean. However, Jenifer can go on to the review to keep on schedule.
I will join her there when I finish this book. i hope I have the essay.

Great! The essay is in most collections, I think, as it's quite well-known as one of the ones which has lasted. Crossing my fingers for you ...

Record 19:

(view spoiler)[I'm pondering the different reactions O and D-503 have towards being in love.
D-503 falls hopelessly for I-330 and his world falls apart. He's a mess and no longer fits comfortably into this society.
O has been in love with D-503 for (I gather) quite some time. She's quietly going on with life and fitting in with society just fine.

Could it be that O slowly fell for D-503 as she spent time with him and got to know him, while D-503 fell suddenly?
Could it be that D-503 is overreacting to having feelings for the first time ever? Feelings can be overwhelming.

Does O really know D-503? That's another ponder question. The society, with it's rules on when and how people can interact, doesn't lend itself well to truly getting to know someone. (hide spoiler)]

I would love to get to the other side of the Green Wall and be in amongst the plants and animals.


**edited to correct a mistake with names. I mixed up the numbers. LOL...

Jean, I'll check my essay collection. I hope it's there.

Gosh, what a strange story. I'm glad we read this.

While it's similar, in ways, to 1984, it ends with some hope and possibility, too, I find, but not much. It's ambiguous, at best.

A good read. Thanks, Jennifer.

I'm so pleased you enjoyed it Petra! Presumably George Orwell liked it a lot - I'm wondering what he said as the reviews I've read by him are pretty critical. And the essay he wrote about reviewing LINK HERE to our discussion thread on Confessions of a Book Reviewer seemed to take a dim view of how book reviews of the time were expected to be (i.e. complimentary and often badly informed).

Thank you so much for your comments, Petra 😊

Petra, I'm glad you are glad to have read it. I myself found it an odd but interesting book.

I am not sure what collections the essay is in, but the review is here, on the Orwell website, followed by additional remarks by Gleb Struve:
"Freedom and Happiness (Review of 'We" by Yevgeny Zamyatin)"
https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-...
Both sets of comments are interesting!

Jean, per your note about his being critical, Orwell states, " But though Zamyatin’s book is less well put together—it has a rather weak and episodic plot which is too complex to summarise—it has a political point which the other lacks."

Thanks for the link, Jennifer. Are we discussing the essay here?

I kind of agree that this book is "rather weak" in that it is jumpy and the actions seem vague sometimes. However, I also think that D-503 was feeling for the first time and that would have been something he didn't know how to control or understand. The confusion must have been great to him. That would lead to some unconnected thoughts & ideas, strange behaviors, and the puppy-dog following of I-330.....and all of that would lead to the guilt he felt. It would have been a chaotic, distressing time for him.

I-330, though, was less defined. We knew she was into something illegal (everything out of the "normal" was illegal), but not sure what for some time. I kept wondering how she could be breaking a bunch of rules (she must have been) and not being under arrest/suspicion long before the events of this story.

Looking forward to reading the essay.

Petra wrote: "Thanks for the link, Jennifer. Are we discussing the essay here?

I kind of agree that this book is "rather weak" in that it is jumpy and the actions seem vague sometimes. However, I also think th..."

Petra Yes! We will discuss the essay here and would welcome your thoughts!

As far as I-330 not getting caught -- I thought that might have to do with her relationship with S (S-4711), the Guardian. He follows D-503 around. D-503 also sees him outside the Green Wall. So... he's a double agent?

In Record 39, S and D-503 have that very strange exchange:

[S]"For example, you enumerated everything you saw beyond the Wall but you failed to mention one thing. You deny it? But don’t you remember that once, just in passing, just for a second you saw me there? Yes, yes me!'

Silence.

Suddenly, like a flash of lightning, it became shamelessly clear to me: he—he too—. And all myself, my torment, all that I brought here, crushed by the burden, plucking up my last strength as if performing a great feat, all appeared to me only funny,—like the ancient anecdote about Abraham and Isaac; Abraham all in a cold sweat, with the knife already raised over his son, over himself—and suddenly a voice from above: “Never mind.... I was only joking.”

As I am reading it, D is spared because S is a double agent, also part of MEPHI, and there's a counterespionage dynamic here worthy of John le Carré. (I feel like reading Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy more than once has been good training for reading We!)

I think this is a messy book, but a profoundly interesting one. With some books, I need to get to the end of the book in order to go back and make sense of it all. That has been my general experience of We.

I have been stewing on this perplexing but interesting book for a while. Here are some thoughts, for what they are worth.

D-503 introduces himself in Record 1: “I, D-503, the builder of the Integral, I am only one of the many mathematicians of the United State.” ... (view spoiler)[

“ I, D-503…” I am doubtless not the only reader to find it irritating to read a book with a hero named D-503. I think of things like The Prisoner TV series (“I am not a number. I am a free man.”) and Jean Valjean, 24601 in Les Miserables (a number that relates to his date of conception). A number is a mathematical object used to count, measure, and label. In this State, human beings are officially not regarded as human individuals. They are objects.

“...the builder of the Integral…” The Integral is a glass, electric, fire-breathing spaceship, designed to go forth and conquer other worlds, making the State one which is out to colonize, and D-503 a colonial conqueror (the Well-Doer later calls him a conquistador). Interesting.

“...the Integral…” There are a lot of mathematical references thrown around in this book, which I found alternately intriguing and confusing. “Integral” in mathematics is the continuous analog of a sum, a combining of many parts to make just one sum. So it's a wonderfully poetic choice of name. It makes the creepy suggestion that this State will go find more beings in order to assimilate/integrate them (I thought of the Borg in Star Trek: The Next Generation).

“...the builder of the Integral, I am only one of the many mathematicians of the United State…” This introduction sets up a major source of tension in the book. “Builder of the Integral” suggests D-503 is important as an individual, but as part of the State, he has been raised to think of himself as, always, just one of many. When D-503 eventually sees the Well-Doer, the Well-Doer (interesting that he does not have a number) related to him as the Builder. The Well-Doer is angry and tells D-503 that the rebels “were interested in you only as the Builder of the Integral.”

I also see some tension in the phrase “the builder of the Integral” because mathematicians are not builders. If you say builder, I think of an engineer, one who uses mathematics, rather than an inventor of or an explorer of mathematics. I was interested and delighted that D-503’s friend and comrade R (R-13) is a poet. What’s a poet in the world of One State? D-503 says, “Oh, why am not I a poet, so as to be able properly to glorify the Tables, the heart and pulse of the United State” (Record 3). As someone who studies literature, I generally find poetry that sets out to praise something underwhelming. It usually fails as poetry.

Poetry and mathematics are more similar to each other than either is to engineering. “Henri Poincaré, a French polymath who laid the foundations of two different fields of mathematics in the early 1900s, described mathematics as ‘the art of giving the same name to different things.’ ” ("How Poetry and Math Intersect:" https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc... )

I think of engineering as more the realm of the tables that are everywhere in this book! So many tables: train tables (historical), multiplication tables, the “Tables” that are part of R’s furnishings, presumably the all-important Table of Hours and the table of sexual days. Instead of calculating years based on Christ, they have year A.T., After the Tables.
(hide spoiler)]

I enjoyed all the mathematical and engineering references... (view spoiler)[

“Taylor” gets mentioned a lot, and I wonder if it makes sense to everyone? Frederick Winslow Taylor was an American mechanical engineer widely known for his methods to improve industrial efficiency. I think the Taylor exercises before bed (Record 3) are physical exercises designed to make workers more efficient. I think that’s the Taylor of whom D-503 says, “Yes, this Taylor was undoubtedly the greatest genius of the ancients. True, he did not come to the idea of applying his method to the whole life, to every step throughout the twenty-four hours of the day; he was unable to integrate his system from one o’clock to twenty-four. I cannot understand the ancients. How could they write whole libraries about some Kant and take notice only slightly of Taylor, of this prophet who saw ten centuries ahead?” (Record 7). It is unsurprising that Immanuel Kant, and his doctrine of a rational will that is autonomous, the author of the law that binds it, is out of fashion in this United State.

Side note: If you have that Taylor in mind, there’s a “Taylor” mention in Record 4 that won’t make sense. When D-503 talks about the “synthetic harmony of the formulae of Taylor and McLauren [sic],” he’s talking about calculus and the work of Brooks Taylor and Colin Maclaurin. The mathematical problem being addressed is that of summing an infinite series to achieve a finite result. Reducing the infinite to a finite result seems on theme in this book. (Great Taylor series video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d6Ds... )

That reference to the formulae of Taylor and Mclaurin shows up as part of a description of the contemporary music of the State, which he also describes as “wholesome, square and massive like the ‘trousers of Pythagoras.’ Sad melodies dying away in waving movements. The beautiful texture of the spectrum of planets, dissected by Frauenhofer lines ... what magnificent, what perfect regularity! How pitiful the wilful music of the ancients, not limited except by the scope of their wild imaginations!” That passage was intriguingly odd to me. I went to see what on earth the “trousers of Pythagoras” might be. I came away wondering about the translation. I think it’s a reference to a proof of the Pythagorean theorem. This illustration of Euclid's proof of the Pythagorean theorem ( Euclid’s Windmill | Geometry, Parallelograms & Quadrilaterals | Britannica ) could well be described as “wholesome, square and massive:"


Trousers, though? Margaret Wertheim ( Pythagoras's Trousers: God, Physics, and the Gender War ) has an article about Pythagoras’ trousers ( https://www.jstor.org/stable/25678052 ) that explains that Pythagoras was a bit of a misfit: "his mystical bent singled him out early as a misfit among the Samians. Later in life, he turned away from Ionian culture and identified himself strongly with the East, an allegiance he symbolized by rejecting the long robes favored by the Greeks and adopting instead the Persian fashion of trousers.” Interesting!
(hide spoiler)]

The book concludes with the statement, “For Reason must win.” There has been a lot of tension and worry about reason versus disorder or unreason in this book, and a lot of worry about walls... (view spoiler)[

In this United State, all the buildings are made of glass, doors are glass, even the pavement is referred to as glass. And then there’s the Green Wall of glass, beyond which no one has stepped since the Two Hundred Years War. D-503 “cannot imagine a city which is not clad with a Green Wall [or] a life which is not clad with the figures of our Tables.” The Ancient House seems to be close to the Green Wall.

In Record 9, we find that the Green Wall exists to keep green things away from man! What is being walled out even includes plants, and that in this State, the natural world is not beautiful. “Only rational and useful things are beautiful: machines, boots, formulae, food, etc.” And in Record 17, “man ceased to be a wild man only on the day when the Green Wall was completed, when by this wall we isolated our machine-like, perfect world from the irrational, ugly world of trees, birds and beasts....”

In Record 5, D-503 tell us that he dislikes his hands because they include an element of the primitive: “... all the while I breathed the purest mountain air of thought, but within me it was and remains cloudy, cobwebby, and there is a kind of cross-like, four-pawed X. Or perhaps it is my paws and I feel like that only because they are always before my eyes, my hairy paws. I don’t like to talk about them. I dislike them. They are a trace of a primitive epoch. Is it possible that there is in me...? It comes up several times. In Record 32, I-330 reframes it for him: “She slowly lifted my hand towards the light, my hairy paw which I detest. I wanted to withdraw it but she held it tightly. ‘Your hand.... You undoubtedly don’t know and very few do know, that women from here occasionally used to fall in love with them. Probably there are in you a few drops of that blood of the sun and the woods. Perhaps that is why I....’ “

By Record 22, D-503 has been transformed by his connection to I-330, and he seems to feel two ways about it: “Apparently I am no longer a phagocyte which quietly, in a business-like way devours microbes (microbes with freckled faces and blue temples); apparently I am myself a microbe, and she too, I-330, is a microbe, a wonderful, diabolic microbe! It is quite possible that there are already thousands of such microbes among us, still pretending to be phagocytes, as I pretend. What if today’s accident, although in itself not important, is only a beginning, only the first meteorite of a shower of burning and thundering stones which the infinite may have poured out upon our glass paradise?”

(hide spoiler)]

At the end of the book, D-503, speaking as someone who has been reborn as one not arguing with the United State, says, “But on the transverse avenue Forty, we succeeded in establishing a temporary Wall of high voltage waves.” It looks as if this Utopia of Reason, this industrial world that has walled out the green world, may well fall. D-503 now hopes that the United State will win, but it seems unlikely. There’s hope for return of a messier and greener world.

Orwell's review of We is about as much fun as you would hope -- biting, funny and thoughtful. I look forward to hearing what people think about it and will wait to say much until people chime in, as I have already chatted a lot today.

I had to follow up on this statement from Orwell's review:

The teller of the story, D-503, who, though a gifted engineer, is a poor conventional creature, a sort of Utopian Billy Brown of London Town, is constantly horrified by the atavistic impulses which seize upon him.

I had no idea what "Billy Brown of London Town" was. Jean, history expert that she is, doubtless knows. For anyone besides me that needs to know, Billy Brown was a cartoon character featured on London Transport posters during World War II!


More info: https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collection...

Thank you, always, for digging up fantastic information and references about these books. I read We a few years ago and was a bit confused by it. The comments you, and others, have made are a big help.

Chad wrote: "Thank you, always, for digging up fantastic information and references about these books. I read We a few years ago and was a bit confused by it. The comments you, and others, have made are a big h..."

Chad, Thank you! Wonderful!

Here's the link to Orwell's thoughts, in case you want to give that a look. It's short and quick! Orwell seems to have thought it interesting but imperfect.

"Freedom and Happiness (Review of 'We" by Yevgeny Zamyatin)"
https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-...

JenniferAustin wrote: "I think this is a messy book, but a profoundly interesting one. With some books, I need to get to the end of the book in order to go back and make sense of it all. That has been my general experien..."

Interesting commentary, Jennifer!
I also thought the the OneState society had changed "engineer" to "mathemetician" at some point. Engineers do use a lot of math and perhaps the Society found the two careers redundant and combined them? Who knows?

The poetry was awful, what little was mentioned. If poetry can only praise a thing and show it's superiority, the beauty of the thing or of anything else in society or nature is lost. It becomes simpering and boring.
....of course, this society has cut all ties to nature and have forgotten the beauty of a natural world.

JenniferAustin wrote: " Later in life, he turned away from Ionian culture and identified himself strongly with the East, an allegiance he symbolized by rejecting the long robes favored by the Greeks and adopting instead the Persian fashion of trousers...."

Love the information on the two Taylors! Thank you, Jennifer!

I laughed at the explanation of Pythagoras' trousers. What a hoot it would have been to be alive at that time and see such a strange and eccentric man walking about town. Great researching to find that bit of info, Jennifer!

JenniferAustin wrote: " It looks as if this Utopia of Reason, this industrial world that has walled out the green world, may well fall. D-503 now hopes that the United State will win, but it seems unlikely. There’s hope for return of a messier and greener world...."

Yes.....this book ends with a hope that the OneState society will fail. D-503 doesn't see that as hopeful, but I do.

In a way, I do feel sorry for D-503. He didn't ask for any of this turmoil or adventure. He just wanted his world to peacefully go on.

I am very glad, though, that O made it to the green world with her baby before the worst of the revolution was under way. No matter how things work out, she and her baby are safe and will survive. I was horrible the way the society treated her: couldn't have a child due to her short stature, was going to be killed for having a child. I'm really glad the two of them are okay. That made me happy.

Petra wrote: "I am very glad, though, that O made it to the green world with her baby before the worst of the revolution was under way. No matter how things work out, she and her baby are safe and will survive. I was horrible the way the society treated her: couldn't have a child due to her short stature, was going to be killed for having a child. I'm really glad the two of them are okay. That made me happy."

Yes! And that part of the story does offer a very solid reason for Margaret Atwood's respect for the book!

Bionic Jean wrote: "This looks amazing! Has anyone seen any of these?"

I went ahead and tried the short video, The Glass Forest, this evening. (See message 5 above, or this link: https://youtu.be/PQ6Au4BzFMQ?si=OCu3J...

They did a lot with a limited budget. The story was both simplified and, in some places, outright changed, but it was still recognizable as starting from the novel. Interesting if you are up for a short art film.

JenniferAustin wrote: "And that part of the story does offer a very solid reason for Margaret Atwood's respect for the book..."

This may be a reason to give the book an extra star! LOL! .....actually, our discussion is making me think about the story more & more, and liking it all the better.

Petra wrote: "JenniferAustin wrote: "And that part of the story does offer a very solid reason for Margaret Atwood's respect for the book..."

This may be a reason to give the book an extra star! LOL! .....actua..."

Petra, I am so happy this conversation has prompted you to like We all the better!

I definitely agree that it's a book that you have to think about quite a bit in order to get a lot out of. I was not initially "wowed" and come to appreciate it after thinking more about it and discussing it here!

I started a new thread for a discussion of the essay "Freedom and Happiness," to see if that helps others spot the conversation.

Sorry for the delay Jennifer ... I'm afraid I haven't a clue about "Billy Brown of London Town". Popular culture way before my time 😂