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Episode 9 - The Reckoning
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Diane
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Apr 04, 2015 03:05PM
Now that part B of season 1 is continuing you can discuss and include spoilers on all episodes through 9 here.
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rumor has it that this episode was available via on demand, like early this am...people were talking about it on facebook - I haven't watched yet and i'm too tired right now to watch - so i'll probably catch up tomorrow
The rumors are true! I watched it last night, actually, at about midnight central standard time and it was amazing of course. I think you're all going to love it. It was interesting being from Jamie's POV instead of Claire's and I'm not sure that I loved it, but I love Jaime so I think I can get used to it.For those of you who've seen Ep.9, what did you think of this change in POV?
This has been my favorite episode yet! I can't believe how much of the book they covered in this episode! Really loved it. The fight scene with jamie and Claire was so real. their acting was superb.
I was interested to watch how they handled the spanking...I think they did a good job.
I thought they did a great job aswell! My husband loved this episode. He said Outlander wasn't at all what he expected.
Paul wrote: "my review - spanking good - http://paullevinson.blogspot.com/2015..."Good review, however, it fails to speak to the point that the reason Jamie spanks Claire is because she endangered the lives of all the men, which is something we Outlander fans have debated ad nauseum, and which many believe elevates Jamie above the men of his time (i.e. common wifebeaters).
Fair point, though he does say a lot about obedience.
I understand more why Leghair would think that Jamie would go to her if he weren't attached to Claire. He really gave mixed signals to her.
Carolyn F. wrote: "I understand more why Leghair would think that Jamie would go to her if he weren't attached to Claire. He really gave mixed signals to her."I agree - at first it was like he was blaming the whole wedding on Dougal instead of admitting it was arranged but he loves and is dedicated to his wife. She got mixed signals yes but she is obsessed and delusional for sure. I can definitely see her as "Fatal Attraction". ( I am sure there are many on here that have no clue what that is though)
I am really liking Jamie's point of view. Sam was Jamie for me right from the beginning but there is still something about Cait that does not do it for me 100%. She definitely is growing in the role though.
Carolyn F. wrote: "I understand more why Leghair would think that Jamie would go to her if he weren't attached to Claire. He really gave mixed signals to her."I think he was trying to be kind, but yes, in the end it was mixed signals, especially to someone determined to see romance where it didn't exist.
I don't know, Jamie's feelings seemed pretty clear - he's attracted to Laoghaire for sure, and the only reason he's not sleeping with her is that he's loyal to his wife.
Why do you all call her Leghair? Is this a joke?
Paul wrote: "I don't know, Jamie's feelings seemed pretty clear - he's attracted to Leghair for sure, and the only reason he's not sleeping with her is that he's loyal to his wife."I wouldn't say the only reason he is not sleeping with her is that he is loyal to his wife. He was a virgin by choice because he had his strict sense of morals. The fact that he is attracted and has desires is another matter. Most young men (19-20 I think he is at this time) would feel aroused by an attractive young girl throwing herself at them. He is no different there he just has a bit more self control. I think he would not be sleeping with her even if Claire was not his wife at the moment. Maybe making out as we saw earlier but not having sex.
Nobody can pronounce her name so that is a rude nickname that looks similar to Laoghaire.
Thanks - I've just correct the spelling.
OK, well for the record Davina Porter pronounces it Lira....like the Italian money.
Diane wrote: " Most young men (19-20 I think he is at this time) would feel aroused by an attractive young girl throwing herself at them."For what it's worth, I think most men of any age would feel aroused by a woman they find attractive throwing herself at them - not by any women who someone or another might deem attractive. That's a significant difference - men don't find all attractive women equally attractive.
In the show they pronounce her name Leery. I think also that one of the outlander shorts on YouTube where they pronounce various gaelic words; they pronounced it leery aswell.
Obedience was important, because the men understand the dangers of the road. If she had been obedient and listened and stayed where he told her to then she wouldn't have been captured and their lives wouldn't have been endangered.I thought Jamie explained it pretty fairly when he said that if it had been one of the men they would have lost an ear, been flogged, or possibly even hanged for it. Man or woman, there would have been a punishment.
I think they did a really great job with the spanking, and the roadside fight has always been one of my favorites and I thought that was really well done.
They totally fit sooo much into this one episode, but it didn't reel rushed or anything. They did a great job.
Interestingly enough, in the book Colum and Dougal worry about Jamie's being a successor to the Lairdship. So they are both glad that Jamie married Claire, because it means he absolutely can't.In the tv show it's almost as though Colum was debating havign Jamie be his successor... he seemed angry that Jamie married Claire.
Quite a switch. Did anyone else pick up on this?
Yes I picked up on it too. I wonder if colum though that if the clan split if Dougal would out Hamish as his son; especially when Jamie said he was shocked Dougal admit to it. perhaps with colum fearing that he wanted jamie to be eligible to be his heir.
Quite a twist from the book.
I caught that also and it made me wonder were they are going with that. Also I don't remember Colum being angry about the Jacobite money from the book.
@Diane, the podcast with Ron Moore and Matt Roberts did mention that he ( Matt) added that to embroider and add a bit more about the Jacobite situation.
@Wendy, in the book I remember that it was mentioned that Jamie would no longer have the support of the clans if he were married to an Englishwoman. It may have been Jamie himself that mentioned that to Claire, but I'm not being accurate. One of you might have the text handy to check.The writers probably used that fact from DG's text to add more tv time for Colum. Giving Colum/Ned/Dougal more facetime was a good move, I thought, since we don't get much more of them after Culloden.
Grandmat wrote: "Ellen wrote: "@Wendy, in the book I remember that it was mentioned that Jamie would no longer have the support of the clans if he were married to an Englishwoman. It may have been Jamie himself th..."Yes, he does.
I've watched the episode 3 times and while the acting is great, especially the first scene, and the argument afterward.
However, I'm on the fence with regards to the "I am your master scene". Am I the only one who was looking forward to the big argument? I know they had great make up sex, but I wanted to see argument acted out. i think that scene would have looked great on the screen.
I'm all for anyone's opinions.
If it has not happened in the TV series yet we need to refrain from discussing it here unless you spoiler tag it. There are many members that have not read the books so each episode is a new experience for them. Grandmat and Carren could you put your comments in spoiler tags please?
Wendy F wrote: "Obedience was important, because the men understand the dangers of the road. If she had been obedient and listened and stayed where he told her to then she wouldn't have been captured and their li..."It struck me that the roadside fight was a clash of two world views. Jamie has the world view of his time that women obey their husbands and it's men's duty to assure that they do, partly Jamie thinks, for their safty, but for some men, I believe it's about power.
And Jamie is nothing if he isn't all about duty.
Claire on the other hand is from a time when, because of the social upheaval of WWII, expects education, career, and self motivation to be within her grasp. Also, she was raised by her uncle to be self sufficient and independent. And by the way, used to living under very primitive conditions.
Jamie bends in the end of the episode. He's willing to lose this battle simple because he loves Claire enough to give in. I see this as a truly great concession, possibly risking the respect of other men.
Wendy F wrote: "Interestingly enough, in the book Colum and Dougal worry about Jamie's being a successor to the Lairdship. So they are both glad that Jamie married Claire, because it means he absolutely can't."
I am of the opinion that Colum considered Jamie to succeed him, even if only until Hamish comes of age. Colum is a smart man. He studys Jamie, staring long and hard as he considers Jamie at the gathering, when Jamie comes back to the castle with his English bride, and later in his chamber.
If I remember right, this is more subtle in the books but that's how I read it.
He knows Dougal is ambitious, and while an excellent war chief, a bad leader, thinking more about power and glory than the ultimate good of the clan. In the end, he does just that, taking the clan down the path of ultimate destruction.
It's Dougal who doubtless would try to kill Jamie before he allowed him to take over the clan, not Colum.
Grandmat - I deleted your question since you did not spoiler tag it. The question and answer from Carren are below(view spoiler)
Wendy F wrote: "Interestingly enough, in the book Colum and Dougal worry about Jamie's being a successor to the Lairdship. So they are both glad that Jamie married Claire, because it means he absolutely can't.I..."
I picked up on this right away! I think that maybe what they were trying to say was Colum wanted Jamie in his back pocket because it was a way to control Dougal. Colum seems to be realizing that Dougal will be a dissident force to contend with. Another thought is that we are now seeing the situation from Jamie's POV. Claire might not have been privy to Colum's true reaction to the marriage.
Grandmat wrote: "Wendy F wrote: "Interestingly enough, in the book Colum and Dougal worry about Jamie's being a successor to the Lairdship. So they are both glad that Jamie married Claire, because it means he abso..."In the book both Colum and Dougal were concerned that Jamie would be raised as a condender for the lairdship and neither one of them wanted him to succeed Colum. If Colum went before his time, which they both thought was likely, they wanted it to go to Dougal and then to Hamish. That's why the Gathering was such a big deal. If Jamie didn't show up to swear his fealty the clansmen who wanted him to be a contender would be upset, but if he DID show up to swear than he said that Colum and Dougal would see he didn't live through the night. I'm pretty sure Jamie says that Colum and Dougal were of one mind in that. They wouldn't want a Fraser leading Clan MacKenzie.
That's a different story than what happened in the show. In the show it appears that Colum is actually looking toward Jamie to succeed, because he doesn't trust his brothers loyalty.
It definitely changes the intentions.
I think that the show is trying to show how subtle Colum is being. I think that he definitely wants Dougal to be his replacement, but he was going to play with Jamie, using him as a threat to keep Dougal under control. He was just very frustrated to have Dougal outmaneuver him by arranging the marriage between Jamie and Claire. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but that's my take.
Diane wrote: "Grandmat - I deleted your question since you did not spoiler tag it. Sorry, Diane. I thought this was open for spoilers. I'll be more careful in the future.
I agree that Colum is using Jamie to keep Dougal under control. I think Column knows his brother very well and knows his brother's ambitions. I liked how Jamie was able to make Column change his mind about the gold, through a subtle flattery and idea that of course Colum already really knew what Jamie was telling him. It shadows the kind of man and leader Jamie will become, I think. He knows how to deal with people.I think the episode had to be from Jamie's POV because of the spanking. We had to understand who Jamie is, what he believes and why he went through with it. We have to see his world through his eyes, not Claire's. It makes the spanking a bit easier to accept to our modern eyes.
Glad Doughtlander is over and it's great to have all my favorite characters back. The acting in this show is tremendous. Sam and Caitriona did a great job with that scene where they argued on the way back to the castle. Nell's scene was also good. The show's scenery was just fabulous too. I liked most of the show, however, I thought some of it could of been written better. They cut and changed scenes that really mattered to me. Time wise the stuff they put in would of been better used for the stuff they cut out. I really missed the wedding ring exchange. They screwed this up back in episode 7, when they put the ring in there, and that caused them to ruin this episode as well.
As for the spanking scene, I feel it could of been done better. I have no problem with the scene being about showing the justice of the day. I do think the music of the scene was horrible. It really diminished from the serious dramatic aspect of what the scene was about, they turned it into some comic romp when it should of been something very serious. I also didn't like Jamie smiling when when he was spanking her. In the book he got angry with Claire for fighting back and she was mad at him for punishing him. It should not have been about humor at all.
As for the vow and the follow up sex, they screwed that up too. As sexy as it was (and yes I love seeing Sam and Cait naked too) this scene was suppose to happen after the ring exchange it was about accepting Jamie as the person she loved and couldn't do without, about Jamie wanting to own Claire body and soul. It was love and passion. By putting that knife sequence, they turned this into Claire doing some quasi-masochistic sex to get back at Jamie. Originally the knife to Jamies neck and the vow happened on the road back to the castle. Jamie only made the vow to make her believe he was sorry and would never punish her corporally again. They switched the order of the knife and vow scene, totally loosing the meaning of why he was making this vow. They also cut out things on the ride back that show's Claire's reason for forgiving Jamie for the spanking. Jamie showing his vulnerability to Claire makes her want to forgive him.
I didn't mind some of the new additions, like Nell by the river. The argument of Dougal and Colum. I thought the return to the castle was better in the book, I thought too much about Colum. In exchange for all the good stuff they cut out, they added scenes that were not integral to the story and was not interesting at all.
As giving us Jamie's POV, I don't mind that I just wish the writing was better. I really do not like the script writing addition's they are doing with this show. Diana Gabaldon is such a better writer, when ever they stray from her lines the show gets dull/boring or just plain ridiculous. For instance what they did with the reason Jamie's gun was empty. It was suppose to be empty because he shot it coming into the fort and didn't have time to load it because he was rushing to save her when he heard her scream. They wrote this as the Gun was empty because a lawyer told him not to kill anyone. Get real! Then they blow up the fort killing 5 soldier's tell me how that equated to the line they wrote. It's just inconsistent and stupid. Also they have Jamie giving us a voice over as to why he didn't kill Black Jack Randall when he had the chance. Well if they followed the well written book the reason he didn't kill him there was because he heard the soldier's coming and had to get Claire out of there before they came. He didn't have time to kill him or I'm sure he would of. It's wasn't that he couldn't kill a defenseless man. Just such bad script writing!
Yes, I'm glad Outlander is back.. I do wish they would use the book more and stop improvising with things that just don't work as well.
The other thing about using Jamie POV was his interplay with Leg Hair at the stream. I guess you could say this certainly showed that Jamis had flaws. After his voice over going on about making decisions in his life that made him a man, he totally whimped out and "blamed" his marriage to Claire on Dougal. I always suspected he did use Leg hair to try and make Claire jealous and notice him. The addition of this scene shows that the producers of the series felt that way as well. I guess you must take into account that Jamie was only 23 or 24 at the time and at prime game playing age. This just lays guilt at his doorstep for the upcoming tribulations of Claire.
Arlene wrote: "The other thing about using Jamie POV was his interplay with Leg Hair at the stream. I guess you could say this certainly showed that Jamis had flaws. After his voice over going on about making d..."What I'm curious about, is that in the book, Jamie is oblivious to Loaghaire and her true feelings for him once they come back to Leoch. In the book, it appears he has no interest in her after he marries Claire. He even has a short riff with Claire right before he gives her the ring over Loaghaire when Claire tells him he can do what he pleases as long as she doesn't have to see it. He actually is offended by this thought. He wasn't with Loaghaire, he was off getting Claire her ring. But the show plays it differently. In the show he is with Loaghaire groping her boobs! And she tells him very clearly what her feelings and intentions are. Jamie also makes the connection between Loaghaire and the ill-wish, and he looks pretty angry over too. Again none of this happened in the book. So my question is how will this end up playing out in the starz production? Just curious if anyone has any thoughts on this.
Maureen - I missed that scene too! For me, that whole interlude was the reason I wasn't mad at Jamie about the thrashing or whatever they called it. His opening up like that showed how much he thought punishment and redemption was part of learning life's lessons to become stronger and steadier on your path. Maybe this will be in a future episode so I won't say too much now, but if it doesn't happen, we have to talk about that absence, it makes a profound difference to me. The scene by the stream brings the King of all men down a notch in my mind. That's still higher than most. :~)
Arlene wrote: "Maureen - I missed that scene too! For me, that whole interlude was the reason I wasn't mad at Jamie about the thrashing or whatever they called it. His opening up like that showed how much he th..."Ok, glad I'm not the only one! I'm going to find it in the books and read that part again when I get home tonight. It really stuck out in my head and I was looking forward to it ::sigh:: but maybe it will come later!
Oh yeah, definitely. I loved any time Jamie told Claire about his past. But that was extra special because he told her of his last thrashing from his father, and then his thrashing from colum.
Interesting reply from DG on compuserve regarding the scene with Laoghaire which upset a lot of people (the scene that is not DGs comments)Dear worry (et al)--
I'm just taking advantage of your message to make a general observation here, if you don't mind . To wit:
I saw _all_ of the footage shot concerning this scene. It went on all day, and _I_ was exhausted from seeing the not-kissing for hours--it was perfectly clear, seeing it over and over and over again--that Laoghaire was trying desperately to kiss him, he was trying desperately _not_ to kiss her--and if she'd been six inches taller, she'd have landed one.
But. The lead-up to the not-kissing (and they're not. Never. Not once) included a longer form of the dialogue. After telling Jamie how she'd always noticed him, from his first appearance at Leoch, she says something about Dougal's arrangement and he interrupts, saying (and I quote): "It's true it was nothing I'd planned...but I'm happy with it." She pauses for a moment, looking up at him in what appears to be deep concern, then takes his hand--and she does _take_ it, he's obviously reluctant to give it to her but doesn't want to jerk it away, either--and says (in a very sympathetic, wistful tone), "Ye dinna look very _happy_. Ye look like you're carrying the world on your back." She's right; he does.
Mind, she's still wearing her cloak through this. He pulls back at that point, but she's still holding his hand. He shakes his head helplessly and says, "Laoghaire...I can't...I havena got anything for you."
She looks up at him, serious, but with a light in her eyes and--putting her hands to the clasp of her cloak, says, "I have something for _you_. She was marrit before--" drops cloak, Revealing All, "--but I've lain with no one." Raises his now-unresisting hand to her breast and goes on, "I want you to be the first--the only one--" Standing on tiptoes, trying to reach his mouth, "--to have me."
Cue brief struggle of not-kissing, then he breaks definitely away and says, "No. No, I made a vow and I'll not break it. Not even for someone as bonny as you." (Obviously trying to be soothing, but clearly having No Idea) He stoops to pick up her cloak, saying, "I'm sorry...." but she gasps in shock and grief, chokes, grabs it herself and whirls around to flee, with him shouting, "I'm sorry!" after her.
Evidently, they decided in the editing that they could cut most of the lead-up and keep only the offer/rejection. (Seconds and half-seconds _count_ in film editing; I'd say more than half the stuff shot is never used, and that's not counting just the unused takes of a given scene.) But this shorter, edited does give a different impression than the scene as written, acted and filmed.
I much preferred the fuller version myself--but I must say, I'm surprised at how hoppity everybody seems to be over something so insignificant as his not jerking his hand off the girl as if she was a hot stove. Jamie didn't think it was a big deal, and neither do I.
--Diana
Zoey - Thanks for that clarification from herself. I know Leg Hair was the aggressive one in that scene, it's just Jamie doesn't have a clue. He took the punishment for Leg hair out of true sympathy for her, remembering his humiliation in the hall for his treatment of Mrs. Fitz when he was young and dumb. However, whether it was to make Claire jealous, or he just went along with Leg Hair's advances in the Castle, he did give her the impression he was interested. He did push her away as gently as he could, but did wobble on his feelings about his marriage to Claire, perhaps out of kindness to Leg Hair. Since it was Jamie's POV, we wouldn't have know about it in the books. If I had an encounter like that with someone running off to tell my new spouse all what happened would be the last thing I would do as well.
So I actually delayed watching the new episode (9) by a couple of days. We bought the dvd's of the first 8 episodes and rewatched those episodes first. My husband is new to the series, and we enjoyed watching the episodes again without commercials. (here in Canada we get the show on Showcase, and have ads). I have to say, overall, I love the whole series. I feel that overall, the differences from book to tv show are well done, and reasonable to be able to tell the story well. The story has to progress in a very different way.
One thing, as we watch, I might stop and say "it happened this way in the book" and we pause the program and discuss it. It almost always makes sense. So I don't think they messed up anything by adding the ring to the wedding episode, or Laoghaire's scene in episode 9. I can see that this scene will add to the audience understanding what happens in the future. (which I am not discussing, that would be a spoiler).
The series doesn't have the luxury of having something happen in one episode and not explaining it well until much later. So some things will happen at different times and ways than in the book. Like the wool waukking scene. It was a lovely scene, and told in a different time and place than in the books, but I loved that it was valued so much to still include it.
The only thing with the spanking scene was that it seemed Jaime stayed in the room with Claire afterward, instead of being thrown out and sleeping on the floor outside the door. ( in counterpoint to the time he did that he voluntarily did that to protect her).
For me it actually worked better than it did in the book, the setting in the time added to the reality.
I also enjoyed adding Jamie's POV to the episode. I have read and enjoyed the graphic novel, and they drew from that a bit I think to work this part out.
Having Jamie really struggle with how to make up with Claire, recognizing that Claire is different from the women he is used to, and that that difference is much of his attraction to her, to make it important.
No adaptation of a book will ever be perfect to its fans, we all have our own ideas of the characters and I personally think a book is always better than a film, but this series is one of the best book adaptations ever, IMHO.
(another is the Lincoln Lawyer, if you are ever in the mood).
And yes, Jamie is a total idiot about Laoghaire and her feelings. He still saw her as a kid, I think until this episode, and might have been surprised at his attraction, but I agree, his moral character would not have allowed him to sleep with her outside of marriage, even if he hadn't had vow of marriage to stop him.
Can't wait for next week!
@Mary wrote.....that caused them to ruin this episode as wellIMHO not ruined, just adapted. Adapted. Ring thing, gone, for their own reasons. And the spanking scene didn't seem a "comic romp" to me. I actually appreciated a bit of levity in this, their first major contention. I see Jamie as grinning and bearing, with grimaces, and not in a haha way at all. i think that Matt did a great job of writing in crafting this ep. They included important stuff, carried the entire storyline, wove in a few new threads, and brought it current. All thiswhile in the midst of a complete change of POV without wreaking havoc.
Jamie's vow comes after some introspection, and as we are watching the boy become man before our eyes, it's more of a stream of consciousness thing for me. As far as the "quasi-masochistic" (sic) moment, the turning of the blade onto Jamie while in a very heated moment might add to the building of import to the scene. Since they (C&J) did not have that lovely walk back home with all the pages and pages of justification and background, it seems to me that Matt did a damn fine job of underlining salient points.
About the unloaded pistol, and the "boring" bits: including a line about Ned brings him back into the storyline, and using that as an excuse for carrying an unloaded weapon was serviceable. Not sure if anyone was killed in the explosion: keeping up the guys end of things, i.e. war stories, guns, battles and such is another way of intriguing a broader audience perhaps. Although our boy is beautiful and Cat extremely easy on the eyes, not every scene can be with just them, or just them in ultra close proximity. Those of us ( I'm new but have read and reread them all) who know the plot can enjoy DG's lush wordplay outside of the Starz series. This tv series is to attract a different, broader, wider, 360 degree audience, or at least try. So sorry you're feeling a bit negatory about it, but I, for one, am enthralled. Cast, crew, front and back of house are now my idols. may we have many more seasons to argue back and forth.
I read Outlander many years ago and did not reread before the series started. I only remember key parts of the book so I don't notice if any scenes are out of order, changed, or missing altogether. I loved the books & so far I am loving the show. In my mind they are two separate things & I don't compare one to the other. Perhaps chosing not to reread is a benefit. I don't have to worry about being disappointed.
You make a good point Sandra! Sometimes we get so caught up in what it should be that we can't enjoy what IS. I love the show, and do understand that it can't follow the book exactly. For the record, even though I have read the books several times, each go through I find different things, either new or newly recognized by me so it's not that different from seeing something new on the screen.
