Read Women discussion

This month we’re reading and discussing a RatW novel focused on Algeria: The Art of Losing by Alice Zeniter., translated from French by Frank Wynne.

I started it last week and highly recommend it. It’s already made me want to seek out more reading on modern Algerian history asap.

Gail will lead our discussion. Who plans to join the discussion?

Hello Carol, I also plan to read it as soon as I finish the one I am reading right now. I have the original French version so it might be interesting to discuss on words used in the translation, if any.

Isabelle wrote: "Hello Carol, I also plan to read it as soon as I finish the one I am reading right now. I have the original French version so it might be interesting to discuss on words used in the translation, if..."

I really want to hear your thoughts on the translation, Isabelle. When I’m home, I’ll find some of the quotes that made me curious about the translator’s choices. Its very accessible in English , to the point of colloquial speech that seems strange (to me) in the mouths of Algerian kids in the 50s, for example.

I'm currently reading this. It's really wonderful. So well-written, very accessible. I like that the chapters are short, I can dip in and out of the story without ever feeling lost. It's another book with a theme I've been encountering a lot lately - the impact of revolutionary movements on the non-combatant population - that feels especially timely for obvious reasons. Similar to Brotherless Night in this regard.

I am very close to finishing and am loving the entire tone of the story. Someone else from the group had nominated this a few months back (sorry, I can't remember who, but thank you!) and it sounded so interesting that I didn't want it to get lost in the shuffle.

I understand Naima's consternation with the lack of information about her grandparents past. I had one set of immigrant grandparents (from two different "crown" countries) who came to the US in their mid to late teens. They rarely talked about their homelands let alone their families. I have been blaming it on the fact that their first three kids were all boys (including my father) who didn't pay attention. But I'm not sure that is either fair or true.

I was interested in joining for this read. Stoked to hear all this enthusiasm for it. Yay.

I read The Art of Losing in 2023 (my review here https://www.goodreads.com/review/show... ) after it won the Dublin Literary Award 2022 a wonderful international award whose nominations come from world libraries. This book went on to become the most borrowed book in Ireland in 2022.

It is also interesting that shortly after the English translation came out in 2021, the French president Emmanuel Macron, made an official apology asking for forgiveness for the French treatment of Algerian Harki fighters, for abandoning them during their home country’s war of independence. Trapped in Algeria, many were massacred as the country’s new leaders took brutal revenge. Thousands were placed in camps in France, often with their families, in degrading and traumatising conditions as the novel touches on and much of this treatment and knowledge was kept hidden from the general population.

Faiza Guène's Discretion looks like an interesting read.

Excellent review of the book with no spoilers:
https://observer.com/2021/03/alice-ze...

I finished yesterday and have so many thoughts, I want to sit on them for a bit to not overwhelm the thread. I am so happy we picked this novel and that I read it and found it utterly compelling and, at the same time, have a dozen or so rants in my head. So. Internal conflict writ large.

Rose, did you finish it? Or are you ready to discuss it including spoilers?

Claire wrote: "I read The Art of Losing in 2023 (my review here https://www.goodreads.com/review/show... ) after it won the Dublin Literary Award 2022 a wonderful international award whose nominations com..."

Wow. Thanks for sharing this, Claire. I was curious, too, about why it won the Dublin Lit Award, since it is a very French colonialism story.

You and Gail are more enthusiastic than me, overall, but we’re united on the importance of the story, and generational impact.

I haven't finished yet - busy week with graduation, a party, and a house full of guests. But I am enjoying every word, and savoring the slow read, so maybe that's a good thing.

I'm ok with opening up the discussion with spoilers, though - I hope to finish it soon.

I hope you’re enjoying all the festivities, Rose. Congratulations to the new grad!

I am so interested in learning more about Algeria and its history now. I downloaded Discretion (thank you, Claire). If anyone has other Algerian reads they recommend, please share.

I can't recommend it, because I haven't read it yet, but I just picked up This Strange Eventful History about the pied-noirs. I was also inspired to look for more books about this period/history.

Rose wrote: "I can't recommend it, because I haven't read it yet, but I just picked up This Strange Eventful History about the pied-noirs. I was also inspired to look for more books about this ..."

Awesome. There’s an 80- person deep waitlist at my library for it, often a good sign. Especially since her average ratings are historically quite mixed.

Got my gorgeous hardcover in the mail and started reading yesterday

So far I'm liking her writing and the history, personal story, and country being explored as I get into the grandfather Ali's story. I look forward to seeing this unfold further and also tie back into Naïma's story in the prologue.

Jen wrote: "Got my gorgeous hardcover in the mail and started reading yesterday

So far I'm liking her writing and the history, personal story, and country being explored..."

I'm so glad you've just started. I have my copy in my nightstand just waiting for me to finish our other group read.

I’ve also become intrigued by Algerian history, and just having this book on my pile has set me on many internet search paths about Algerians, Berbers, and Northern Africa colonialism, etc.

I don’t want you all to hold up the conversation for me though! I just realized some comments mentioned waiting. Please feel free to discuss and I will read at my own risk.

Hey thanks, likewise, Anita :) I often like and agree with your reviews so I'm looking forward to your thoughts on this one.

I'm just past one-third through and am loving this book so far. Y'know, Gail and Carol's reading updates are in my feed too and I was impressed earlier this month noticing how fast you both seemed to be reading it. And now here I am, also plowing through. I agree with Rose- great and very accessible writing. I don't have so many obstacles as Rose and am reading kinda compulsively. Fingers crossed it stays on this track for me through the rest of the story.

In the first part of the book, I think the reflection of rural mountain life is quite special and I really liked the family and village life story. There are some side characters I'm already sad I'm guessing will not reappear...

If I store and perfect this comment, it'll never get posted (like many of my "review to come" reviews from 2021 that sit unedited), so here goes.

Things that worked well:
1. Zeniter nailed whatever it is that makes a non-thriller novel compulsive. I never once contemplated DNF'ing it, this despite the fact that I read it on audio and hated the narrator from beginning to end. I also think it's pretty unusual for a generational novel to have such perfect pacing. And it isn't short either!
2. While I would have loved to have learned more about the Algerian war for independence, as well as the subsequent land redistribution and the like, I think Zeniter made a brilliant call to keep the focus on her characters and not try to educate readers on the history and culture, as well. There were zero moments where this book became bogged down in either description or a history dump.
3. Ali's story, which runs through approximately page 180.
4. The ending, which didn't feel either abrupt or incomplete. I might have wanted more, but in context she made a great call and it felt like a natural point to call it done.

Things that didn't work:

1. Any character in France from Hamid forward in time. During the early portions focused on Ali and Yema, I was wholly transfixed. Watching Ali face the decision of how to navigate between the French and the NLF and see how his choices played out was impactful. But I didn't for a minute believe in Hamid, Clarisse or Naima as characters. They were useful vehicles to tell Zeniter's story, fine. (a short list of key reasons: Hamid's upward mobility in France of the 1960s notwithstanding his appearance is breathtaking. He marries the blonde girl with the racist parents and neither set of parents objects. He tosses aside his Islamic faith and his parents accept his choice. He gets to spend that summer in Paris hanging with his peeps notwithstanding his lack of deep financial resources. Clarisse seems to be rebelling when she first gets together with him, but then they marry and there's no rift with her parents or friends, and she produces the second half of the book's star - Naima - and is never fully fleshed out, nor is their marriage aside from the silent periods that just ultimately ... pass. Naima has a pretty amazing career and life for someone a generation removed from immigrant status, in a camp. Right there, I was gobsmacked. Her grandmother is illiterate her whole life, but Naima isn't inspired either to learn enough Arabic to communicate with her or to try to teach her any written English words. Then, she doesn't want to go to Algeria, then doesn't care if she ever goes, then arrives and - Voila! - she's amazingly and immediately charmed. Nope. Didn't believe these characters were anything other than a means to facilitate the white-boarded plot.)

2. First person.
3. The writing style. I found it quite clunky and inelegant, particularly as the story moved toward the present. I raised a brow at many metaphors and references. 3 examples:

"If you've got money, flaunt it." (page 19)
"Looking back over the years, Ali feels as if it was written in the heavens that he would have a destiny rivaled by few others, and he smiles as he folds his arms across his paunch. Yes, everything is like a fairy tale." page 21. ["feels" as if "it was written"?? a "destiny rivaled by few others"? "everything is like a fairy tale" ? none of these 3 things make sense.'
"Love is like an endless tunnel, like the rabbit that leads Alice to Wonderland." (page 260).

The funny thing is that Art of Losing is better, in the aggregate, than the sum of its parts. This is an edited list of the things I hated about it. I could rant for an hour over wine. And yet, I am so glad I read it and we read it together to discuss it, and I can't for the life of me explain that disonnance logically. And I'm also now so curious to learn more about Algeria - everything. history, culture, art, really anything and everything. All credit to Zeniter.

Something else Zeniter handled particularly well: the violence of war and revolution. She didn't make the early parts of Art of Losing bloodless, but she also didn't make the violence so graphic that it became overwhelming or horrific. There are so many books that tell essential stories of 20th century wars on the African continent, and many of them are more than I can bear to read. (my weakness as a reader; doesn't say anything about the wisdom of those authors whose works I'm unable to finish.) Zeniter found a way to make the violence and threat of violence to Ali and his family sufficiently real to understand his motivation and why they left Algeria, but didn't linger in that space for long. Always a tough call, I imagine, for an author.

Finally finished! For a book I enjoyed as much as I did, it took me forever to read. Thus my main critique is that it was perhaps too long. I agree with Carol, the Algeria pieces were stronger than the France pieces, and the Ali POV section was better than the Hamid section. I did really enjoy the writing style. Glad to have read this book, it offered a perspective on the long-term impacts of the immigrant experience and the impact of the fight for independence on non-combatants that are relevant all over the world, as well as teaching me about a time and place I knew almost nothing about. Glad to have read this.

Finished this morning. Loved it. So glad for the initial comments shared here that convinced me to squeeze this in. 4.5-5 stars for me.
I liked the writing minus a couple uncomfortable lines different from the ones Carol quoted above, though I see out of context those look kinda funny yea... I also loved learning about a place and time I knew almost nothing about. And at the same time, I felt so much personal connection which I think made this really special for me. As a westerner who is "half", I saw a lot of parallels to my own inner and outer life experience and family story. Even aside from the dual-culture thing, I felt Zeniter often pinpointed so well internal human experiences. I love that in reading.
I remember in the beginning (of Ali's story) having concern this was going to feel too much like history lesson, but it was a short-lived worry as I quickly got into the story and her writing style. Personally, I liked Hamid's section as well. Yea, at the end it kinda jumps suddenly to Naïma's adult story. That stuck out to me too but I ultimately felt okay with the jump, as the gap could generally- very generally- be filled in in my imagination (and I'm glad the book isn't longer than it is...).
The start- and perhaps as much as first half- of Naïma's story had me skeptical- thinking it wasn't as good as the first two parts, but it fell into place for me. I find it interesting and bold that Zeniter goes into recent terrorist attacks in France in this section. What did others' think of this?
Anyway I ultimately found the slow coming together of Naïma's section fitting as she is the generation most disconnected to her roots on her father's side. I appreciated the confusion, the unclear need, the sense of a void within that is conveyed and how different her world is compared to her patriarchs'. As I write, I find myself seeing more and more how this all (including the jump from Hamid to Naïma) points all the more to the gaps, the missing pieces, the fogginess that define such a family history and how they just get bigger with each generation. I mean... the Bishop poem in the end... chef's kiss.

Overall- big yay from me!

You've all reminded me that one additional burden for all of the family members that isn't necessarily true, generally, of immigrants, is that they couldn't disclose the year they arrived for fear of the reaction that year - without more - could elicit. That sort of, "oh, you're one of THOSE people" logically leads to hiding one's history from others until it's all but forgotten under the extra thick pile rug.

Carol wrote: "You've all reminded me that one additional burden for all of the family members that isn't necessarily true, generally, of immigrants, is that they couldn't disclose the year they arrived for fear ..."

oh right- yes, this was very interesting, eye-opening.

By the way, I just watched a video last night of an interview in English with Zeniter. Fun fact- Naïma's experience of finding her Algerian family in that very unplanned, unprepared way was like Zeniter's own experience on one of her own trips.

Jen wrote: "Carol wrote: "You've all reminded me that one additional burden for all of the family members that isn't necessarily true, generally, of immigrants, is that they couldn't disclose the year they arr..."

If you have time to share a link, I’d like to view that. Still thinking about this novel, but more broadly about the experience of Algerians through the period when independence was sought but the outcome was uncertain.

The video is a bit long but I was into it as I was such a fan of this read-

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7j_2wrD...

Am wondering if you, or anyone else who may have read it, was reminded of Naguib Mahfouz’ Palace Walk? North African, family saga, fight for independence, and the moments of lightness with quite charming children characters!

Carol wrote: "Isabelle wrote: "Hello Carol, I also plan to read it as soon as I finish the one I am reading right now. I have the original French version so it might be interesting to discuss on words used in th..."
Hello Carol, yes I imagine because there are so many words related to French and Algerian culture that it must have been quite a challenge for the translator...

Claire wrote: "I read The Art of Losing in 2023 (my review here https://www.goodreads.com/review/show... ) after it won the Dublin Literary Award 2022 a wonderful international award whose nominations com..."

Yes, Claire, I can confirm, none of this is taught in schools. We only learn about the war and how violent it was on both sides but none is said about what happened after the war both in France and Algeria and the camps are never mentioned. This book is indeed eye-opening.

Carol wrote: "If I store and perfect this comment, it'll never get posted (like many of my "review to come" reviews from 2021 that sit unedited), so here goes.

Things that worked well:
1. Zeniter nailed whateve..."

Regarding your comments, Carol, on the quotes, I am not sure I understand why you found them quirky. As an example, the first you mention, "when you have money, flaunt it", does not shock me in the sense that when you have money, you need to show it off. Is it maybe the verb "flaunt" that may sound different in English? I am not a native speaker, so that may explain that.

Jen wrote: "The video is a bit long but I was into it as I was such a fan of this read-

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7j_2wrD...

Am wondering if you, or anyone else who may have read it, was reminded of Nag..."

Palace Walk, and the trilogy, generally, are in my top 10 novels of all time. I first read them in my early 20s and they greatly shaped my worldview, not necessarily in ways anyone would expect.

Isabelle wrote: "Carol wrote: "If I store and perfect this comment, it'll never get posted (like many of my "review to come" reviews from 2021 that sit unedited), so here goes.

Things that worked well:
1. Zeniter ..."

Nothing shocked me, Isabelle. I found that sentence and many others to be cliched and clumsy. But, overall, it was sufficiently powerful in the aggregate to overcome Zeniter’s — to me — less than elegant writing style. I typically don’t “blame” translators for writing I dislike, but if you found the original to be well-written, please tell me and I’ll factor that in to my conclusions.

Hello Carol, yes, I did find it well written. The style is fluent and very visual but I find the author's writing style quite academic as if she was applying what she had learnt. When she started Ali's fairy tale's story, I remember thinking this is written like a fairy tale right before it was ever mentioned in the text. Zeniter is very good at writing long sentences but when she needs it, her sentences are very short. For example, when the family is fleeing from their house. So although well written, with a very rich vocabulary (some words I had to look up in a dictionary), I also found it quite predictable.

I’ve really been enjoying this one. Just at a slower pace. One thing I haven’t seen mentioned (though to be fair I’m half reading the comments to avoid spoilers for myself) is the seemingly random inserts that offer a small snippet of the events from Annie’s world/perspective. She’s clearly in a different sphere, and I imagine she plays a larger part in Hamid’s future…? But how the French people receive news of events in the mountains, biased views from the French government’s perspective (of course) while we are steeped in Ali’s mountain village is noteworthy. I feel the author adding important layers of perspective, hierarchy, and social standing to these events.

Ok, so all the way to part 3 now and realizing Annie had practically No impact or part in adult Hamid's life. It’s at least interesting to see her path as a young adult and it meshes with the brevity, or non-space, she was really afforded in the grande scheme of things during Ali’s story.

The reflections in Hamid’s turbulent childhood transferring from home to home or camp to camp essentially was eye opening to think of from the perspective of a child. Getting to glean his reflections and thoughts as he grew was so insightful and impactful. I also really appreciate the different perspectives of his siblings that we glimpse from Clarisse as an outsider who gets to meet them. I’ve hoped throughout that we would get to learn more or read more about Dalila, but it seems like we will only get little snippets.

Anita wrote: "Ok, so all the way to part 3 now and realizing Annie had practically No impact or part in adult Hamid's life. It’s at least interesting to see her path as a young adult and it meshes with the brevi..."

I would have liked more time spent with Hamid’s female siblings, too, Anita. The whole refugee camp to school to a new home and with illiterate parents experience. There is as a lot that would have kept me mesmerized in this portion if the author has opted to explore more broadly. I think she really thought of this as a bridge between the two core stories she wanted to tell, though. like gold snippets lost on the cutting room floor of a great movie.

Jen wrote: "Finished this morning. Loved it. So glad for the initial comments shared here that convinced me to squeeze this in. 4.5-5 stars for me.
I liked the writing minus a couple uncomfortable lines differ..."

Hello Jen, the 3rd section about Naïma's story was the most appealing to me; the story of more recent times with the mention of the terrorist attacks of course made it real but like you I liked the fogginess of looking after one's roots. The first part, though, did feel for me like a history lesson. All in all, a very enjoyable reading.

Carol wrote: "If I store and perfect this comment, it'll never get posted (like many of my "review to come" reviews from 2021 that sit unedited), so here goes.

Things that worked well:
1. Zeniter nailed whateve..."

Hello Carol, I can see what you mean by the clunky style with the analogy to Alice's tunnel, which for me is more a reference to the cliched image from Disney's animated movie. This is a form used many times in this book, the reference to cartoons or movies to make the image more visual, which might work or not. But I agree it can get tricky to understand like the other image on the next page, right after Alice's tunnel: "Clarisse is an inalienable block of Clarisse". Quite mysterious...