The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

We have come to the end of our novel, which features perhaps one of the most romantic letters in English Literature.

First, however, we get the exposure of William Elliot's duplicity and questionable character, from Mrs Smith.

Then we have a flurry of activity around the Musgroves and the plans for the Elliot's card party, and Anne once again feeling apprehensive that yet another misunderstanding may interrupt her chance for happiness.

The penultimate chapter gives Anne a chance, in speaking with Captain Harville, to make her feelings plain to any who understand her, and she is overheard by Captain Wentworth. Under cover of finishing a letter he is writing for his friend, he pens a statement of his feelings and a renewal of his offer to Anne.

The final chapter ties up any loose ends, and even raises the possibility of Mrs Clay eventually rising to the position of Lady Elliot.

What did you think of Mrs Smith initially concealing her information, and then sharing it when Anne insists she has no love for her cousin?

Mrs Clay has played an interesting game, and so has Mr Elliot. Who do you see "winning" this battle?

How do the other secondary characters stories play out? Were there any that seemed false to you, or that perhaps could merit their own novel?

Anne and Frederick, after 8 years, have finally found their happiness. What do you think of the denouement in their love story, and do see an equally happy future for them as we've seen in the Crofts?

If you have read other Austens, how does this compare for you? (Please avoid or hide spoilers for those who haven't read them yet). Do you have favourite novels/heroes/heroines?

Please share your thoughts on this section and on the novel as a whole.

Persuasion was my favorite Austen novel when I was younger, for a variety of reasons. I always attach to an undertow of sadness in a happy-ending novel, so I cared about Anne and took her point of view. I loved the dignity of her pervasive sadness. I was also kinder to Captain Wentworth in an era when the culture gave men more license to hold all the power in the world and in relationships, focusing on his strong feelings and intelligence and not so much on his thoughtlessness and cruel streak.

Over time I became disillusioned with Wentworth, and that allowed me to develop a stronger sense of all the thin spots and weaknesses in the novel. I’ve noted some of those in the earlier threads, and this section has a biggie—the inconsistent and unmotivated character of Mrs. Smith. She’s somebody Anne looked up to at school, but now she lives to gossip, which an Anne couldn’t possibly admire. She always looks on the bright side of life, but she has this huge grievance to resent. She enters into Anne’s supposed romance with her cousin and supposedly cares about Anne but doesn’t want to open Anne’s eyes to what an awful husband he would be before it’s too late. Only when she knows Anne doesn’t care about Mr. Elliot does she spill the beans. Is that the decision-making process of a friend? No, it’s the actions of a puppet being manipulated by an impatient author trying to jerk the story along. I can see the strings, and even the hand holding the strings.

I know most people love The Letter, but to me it’s bombast and I prefer the alternate ending to the novel, with its delightfully cringey scene in which Wentworth has to give an unwelcome message to Anne from Admiral Croft. I hope other readers have the alternate ending included in their editions.

Why do I like that ending better? Because it is more in keeping with Austen’s impulse to tone down the emotion. Consider the beginning of vol. II, chap. 9, the morning after the concert at which Anne is encouraged by Wentworth’s sullen, pouty jealousy (I was put off, so already my feelings weren’t tracking with hers). Austen reports Anne’s thoughts and feelings and then says, “Prettier musings of high-wrought love and eternal constancy, could never have passed along the streets of Bath, than Anne was sporting with from Camden-place to Westgate-buildings. It was almost enough to spread purification and perfume all the way.” Leaving aside the fact that that’s pretty heavy-handed irony by Austen standards, it yanks the reader out of the story and encourages readers to stand back and laugh at the heroine they’ve been empathizing with all along. I guess my taste runs more toward the distance than the feelz.

My favorite Austen novel? It’s probably inconsistent of me, but these days it’s Mansfield Park. No ironic distance there, but I find Fanny’s sufferings to be a lot deeper and more justified by circumstances than Anne’s. It’s an extraordinary portrait of the psychology of the unwanted child. I also like how tightly constructed it is thematically, and the issues it addresses. Though in fact, in a different possible world, my favorite Austen novel would be one she never finished, The Watsons.

I like the unusual lines of imagery that run through Persuasion—Austen got better at using imagery as her career continued and she always does it with subtlety—and the way the story is crafted to echo on the personal level the movement of history during the months it takes place. But for me it’s a novel in chrysalis, and I’d love to have been able to see the butterfly.

I am a sucker for a happy ending and Jane Austen always delivers in that respect. It is predictable, but still cute. (Like a Hallmark movie.)

If I had to rate the JA books I have read (or partially read)
so far I would put them in this order:
1. Sense and Sensibility
2. Pride and Prejudice
3. Emma
4. Mansfield Park (not a favorite)
5. Persuasion (my least favorite)

Frankly I was surprised I didn’t enjoy it. I really wanted to like it.
I think it’s the main characters - I don’t feel the chemistry.
Maybe if we were given more of a backstory of their romance 8 years ago. Why was it that great? I don’t get it.
Wentworth is no Mr Darcy. The main character should be charming, charismatic and dreamy. I don’t see any of that in Wentworth. Anne is just so ordinary.
Most people love this book and have a sentimental attachment to it - they must see something in it that I am missing. Perhaps you need to be in a different frame of mind while reading this. 🤷🏻‍♀️
Not sure exactly what it was but I will forever think ‘boring’ when I think of Persuasion.

**disclaimer: if you love this book, please don’t get mad at me. This is just my honest opinion.

I find the letter sort of a lazy way to end a story. It's done sometimes in mysteries to reveal the truth. An actual conversation would have been more engaging. But in Austen's time, epistolary novels were common so it probably wouldn't have seemed awkward.

When I look at my ranking of Austen books, I realize they are in order of how humorous (to me) they are:

1.Emma
2. Pride & Prejudice
3. Northanger Abbey
4. Persuasion
5. Sense & Sensibility
6. Mansfield Park

I’m still on team Persuasion, although this read and all your insightful comments have made me rethink it, though I excuse the weaknesses on the basis I of her presumed illness.

My ranking:

1. Persuasion
2. P&P
3. S&S
4. Northanger Abbey
5. Mansfield Park
6. Emma

Unfortunately Emma herself makes me cringe and I dislike the really tight emphasis on rank.

I can’t stand Emma either! She’s too close to what I was like at her age, and “cringe” is the word for it. I also don’t like Mr. Knightley sitting in judgment on her all the time, even though his criticisms are just; I feel that would be his default in marriage whenever they disagreed.

I adore Emma partly because she is close to me, making judgments without all the facts. I don’t like Fanny in Mansfield Park because she is too perfect. All the other heroines make mistakes, and that’s where the conflict and humor is.

I agree with Robin. I like Emma because she says and does many silly things - just as I used to when I was younger. I think generally her heart is in the right place :)

I still love 'Persuasion' despite finding all these faults with Wentworth's character this time around. The Crofts are a high bar to set, only time would tell! Wentworth displayed many negative emotions in the book and we don't really know how he is when secure of his lover's feelings and happy.

That finally brings P&P to the top of my list:
1. P&P
2. Persuasion
3. Northanger Abbey
3. Mansfield Park
3. S&S
.
.
.
6. Emma

I find it hard to rank Jane Austen's novels! But Emma is definitely my least favourite, which is probably understandable if you appreciate an Anne Elliot. They couldn't be more different!

Thanks for organising this group read, it added a new level to my reading.

Yes, the outgoing Emma seems like the reverse
Image of the reserved Anne.

I first read Emma in an old Penguin edition, with an introduction that pointed out that one of the sub-plots was a mystery story rather before its time. This held my interest for a while.

However, I found Emma herself simply annoying, until it occurred to me that she, and her governess, Miss Taylor, had probably spent her adolescent years trying to get around her *really* annoying (if you have to live with him) father. (For the reader, of course, he is a great comic character.)

A father who also tries to micromanage everyone else. Fortunately for those involved, his efforts seem so wide of the mark, and so intermittent, that he doesn’t make himself a general nuisance to the whole neighborhood.

I can’t cite textual evidence for how Emma grew up in such an environment, but experience would leave her with the impression that (a) it was a good idea to manipulate other people, in their own best interests, of course, and that (b) she was good at it. (B), of course, doesn’t actually follow from (a), and with Miss Taylor out of the picture she has no one to keep her in check.

I don't know why I like Emma so much, but she has been my favorite on multiple readings over (yikes!) 50 years. I think one of the best portrayals of her is the movie Clueless, which surprisingly captures much of the Austen book. The heroine always means well but is blind to so much (clueless!)

Austen herself said Emma was a heroine that no one would like.

I tend to like scoundrels and showoffs in literature.

I am undecided whether this remains my favorite Jane Austen novel. It’s been twenty years since I last read it (plus a few times before that) and I had thought it perfect. Her other novels are due a dusting off from my bookshelf for a comparison check. Yet, as much as I now take issue with some of the author’s choices in Persuasion, the essays in the Norton Critical Edition and the contributions in this discussion have enhanced the novel in such a way that makes me admire Jane Austen even more, in other ways.

The negatives:

I was reminded that I never liked Mrs. Smith as a character, although I pity her circumstances and appreciate Anne’s kindness. Reading it now, I see Mrs. Smith as a foil to Mrs. Clay, two widows without much money, one maintaining her moral integrity, the other not.

I found Mrs. Clay a cardboard character “scarlet woman”. I personally would have enjoyed more complexity. Also, I wonder if it was easier for Jane Austen to have Anne show distaste for the toadying Mrs. Clay than for her own sycophantic father and sister, which would be the height of disloyalty, thus scapegoating the Mrs. Clay character.

Chapter XXI was hard for me to get through. Out of nowhere, Mr. Elliot became such a total villain, with so much infamy piled on him and with only Mrs. Smith’s word to back it up. As a reader, I would have preferred the evidence of my own eyes, show me his villainy in action. And was it really necessary to the story to make him be so VERY bad? Couldn’t co-opting Mrs. Clay from under Sir Walter’s nose and the possibility of immoral Mrs. Clay becoming the next Lady of Kellynch Hall been enough? And why did JA choose to make him so irredeemable compared to her other “bad guys”?

Despite this, Anne remains my favorite Jane Austen heroine, the characters enjoyable and situations interesting. Wentworth came down a notch in my estimation although IMHO the rewritten ending improved him, made him more tender and self-aware. I hope, to quote Colonel Brandon, that “he may endeavor to deserve her [Anne].” It’s a beautiful love story and the prose is superb, and for me, that’s the core of the novel and will very likely bring me back to it again.

I have different favorites for my different moods My all-time favorite is Mansfield Park which I find the deepest. but to relax and enjoy Pand P.I also laugh a lot with Emma, S&S I read every so often just to enjoy. After "studying" NA with an excellent critic I have learned to appreciate its hidden JA there and enjoy it more. I enjoy the characters in Persuasion but as I have often mentioned I do not like C Wenwiorth and hope Anne shall be happy with him so dont read it as often .

Evelynn wrote: "And was it really necessary to the story to make him be so VERY bad? ."

I totally agree with you: I would have much preferred a Mr. Elliot who is more subtly 'bad'. There are the traces of this: Anne realises early on that something is missing in him, that she cannot really trust him - I think the novel would have gained much by pursuing this line which would have made Anne's moral and intellectual qualities more plausible: she finds out about Elliot's character on her own and decides - on her own, for once!! - that she cannot like or marry him.

Mansfield Park - (view spoiler)[ Fanny Price beats Anne by far in this regard: she is determined and strong in her rejection of Crawford, she sees through him long before he acts badly. She struggles with her own judgement which puts her in conflict with the Bertrams, she questions herself, and cannot be persuaded. (hide spoiler)]

I have read very little of Jane Austen, so my ranking of her novels is probably meaningless. I would rank them as (1) Mansfield Park; (2) Persuasion; (3) Emma. I really did not enjoy Emma at all, but because it has been so many years ago that I read it, I will probably someday give it another try. I do want to read all of Austen's novels.

I liked the character of Anne very much, and really disliked her father and both her sisters. I also liked Captain Wentworth and had sympathy for his initial aloofness to Anne. I think he was a proud man who had been deeply hurt by her long-ago rejection, and for such a man to eventually try again is difficult.

I wonder what revisions Austen would have made if she had lived. One thing might have been to not have three male characters named Charles! I think she might have given us more background, fleshed the characters out more, especially Mr. Elliot. As noted by Evelynn and Sabagrey, he went from being a fairly likeable character to an absolute villain in an unbelievably short time. That said, I enjoyed the book greatly and look forward to reading more of Jane Austen with the group.

I agree that too many of the final developments are handled through summary, as well as too much of the backstory. The thing I most miss is a few scenes giving us a glimpse of Anne and Wentworth's relationship eight years earlier; that would have given us a much better sense of their personalities and why they cared for each other. It would have upped the psychological stakes throughout the book. I do realize that flashbacks had not really been invented in Austen's day—authors tended to handle them through long, awkward narratives recited by a single character.

An easy way to expose Wentworth’s feelings at different stages would have been to give him a male friend in whom to confide, reported in direct or indirect speech.

But this was not really an option for Jane Austen, who only represented men talking when women were present. (A touch of realism from her own life, unless she used to eavesdrop.)

Just to be nitpicky, there’s at least one conversation in MP between Sir Thomas and Edmund with no female present; and Austen does enter into a male character’s thoughts from time to time (Wentworth early on, Darcy a couple of times). She’s a little more flexible than she’s typically made out to be.

Here’s the passage in Persuasion (vol. I, chapter 7): “Frederick Wentworth had used such words [so altered he should not have known her again], or something like them, but without any idea that they would be carried round to her. He had thought her wretchedly altered, and,in the first moment of appeal, had spoken as he felt. He had not forgiven Anne Elliot. She had used him ill; deserted and disappointed him; and worse, she had shewn a feebleness of character in doing so, which his own decided, confident temper could not endure. She had given him up to oblige others.” And so on, his POV goes on till the end of the chapter.

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, it's quite a few years since I read this book. Happily, I still enjoy it very much!
As characters, Anne and Wentworth are far closer to "real" people, and more human, than Elizabeth and Darcy. Anne is shy, and she is not used to pushing herself forward (or even being listened to if she did). Wentworth is a naval officer, not a poet or dramatist. They had a relationship 8 years earlier, which Anne broke off. We don't know much about that relationship. Wentworth feels Anne betrayed him by not defending him. (See Abigail's post above) Anne knows she did this and feels some guilt. And regret.
And they meet again. Wentworth discovers he has not "moved on", and he still cares about Anne, chafes at how her family treat her, and when he meets other eligible women, he realises he has not met Anne's equal.
I don't think Wentworth behaves spitefully. We are seeing him through Anne's eyes, as we experience most things in the book, and we realise his behaviour is driven by hurt.
As we and Anne realise this, she attempts to show him she still cares about him, within the confines of the age and her upbringing.
And when he realises this, he responds immediately.
The only criticism I have of the book is in the last chapter, which is very much a case of tell, don't show (the opposite of good storytelling). The author tells us about their conversations and their friends' reactions, but does not show us. Possibly had Jane Austen had the opportunity to revise the book, she would have made alterations.

Before I sum up my thoughts on this reading of Persuasion I would like to share my enthusiasm for the modes of travel used by the characters in eighteenth and nineteenth century novels. No, nothing to do with ships, boats or any sea going vessel, but those used on terra firma. I have never been interested in automobiles. For me if it gets me from A to B without any problems it will do. However the names and designs of the coaches and chairs have always fascinated me. I am lucky enough to live close enough to a number of museums which have original examples as well as replicas, one of which even provides a simulated ride in a late eighteenth century mail coach. This experience makes you realise how rough a ride it would have been. With all the jolting and lurching I lasted about five minutes.

A rare occurrence in the literature I have read is the mention of a ‘landaulette.’ Landaus are often mentioned, as are Sedan Chairs, Gigs and Barouches.

In the last chapterof Persuasion, Anne is proclaimed ’ the mistress of a very pretty landaulette;’



For those who don’t know their Phaetons from their Curricles, this handy guide is very useful when visualising the movements of those favourite characters.

https://randombitsoffascination.com/p...

Thank you Trev, and I particularly enjoyed their snide commentary on the Barouche-Landau, which for some reason has always stuck in my mind. I can't imagine that any of those were particularly comfortable or immune from tipping over!

After yet another enjoyable read of Persuasion, there were a couple of things that struck me that I hadn’t really thought about after previous reads. They are rather random, but yet another example of why rereads can be so rewarding.

1. Jane Austen sticks the boot into Sir Walter and Mrs. Clay right up until the end. It is a continuous mocking of their characters whose real life types she must have witnessed many a time during her soirees in Bath and at other fashionable places.

Sir Walter was relentless in his vanity crusade by continuing a mocking tirade against women, including this……

’ My best love, of course.(to Lady Russell ) “And mine,” added Sir Walter. “Kindest regards. And you may say, that I mean to call upon her soon. Make a civil message; but I shall only leave my card. Morning visits are never fair by women at her time of life, who make themselves up so little. If she would only wear rouge she would not be afraid of being seen; but last time I called, I observed the blinds were let down immediately.”

And as for Mrs Clay, it couldn’t be more damning to be linked to that archest of arch villains Mr. Elliot, not just as his ‘friend,’ or even his accomplice but ’under his protection.’

2. Captain Wentworth’s reasons, as explained to Anne, for ‘making love’ to both Henrietta and Louisa actually made me squirm. No matter how angry and hurt he had been, to take out his ‘revenge’ by exploiting two naive and relatively innocent girls was quite disgusting.

And the ‘blindfolded’ Captain really ran his excuse ship aground in claiming he didn’t really know what he was doing. This daring and successful naval captain, experienced strategist and expert tactician had…..
’ found too late, in short, that he had entangled himself;’………..Unbelievable.

Having read ‘Blind Love’ by Wilkie Collins, I can partially understand why Anne completely ignored?…. forgave?……Captain Wentworth’s dalliances with the Musgrove sisters. But if she believed Wentworth when he said that the sisters never meant anything to him, was she then just joking with Captain Harville about the differences in constancy between men and women?

It was difficult to accept that Louisa’s leap off the Cobb at Lyme would result in such a personality transformation. But, in accepting Wentworth’s feeble excuses, it felt like Anne had leapt away from sense to embrace sensibility. A leap of faith on behalf of her noble captain? Both leaps seemed somewhat desperate. Had Louisa’s clumsy, mistimed, hardly disguised, giddy embrace, not gone badly wrong, Anne would probably have been kept apart from her lifelong love for ever.

Totally agree with you on your well-argued point 2, Trev. As I age I have become more of a rigorous (or rigid?) ethicist, and I find Wentworth’s personality and behavior egregious. It makes me sad that a kind and tolerant person such as Anne would fall into his clutches.

Abigail wrote: "I find Wentworth’s personality and behavior egregious. It makes me sad that a kind and tolerant person such as Anne would fall into his clutches ."

None of Jane Austen's heroes are idealised Princes Charming. She sees people as they are, and marriages as they turn out in real life: demanding a lot of tolerance and - where possible - corrective action on the women's side. (view spoiler)[from Darcy, lacking in humour and self-criticism, via Ferrars, undecided and weak, Edmund, the wet rag, all the way to Knightley the schoolmaster. (hide spoiler)]

Ah, but you left out my favorite, Henry Tilney (in that case the tolerance and patience would be a bit more on his side, I suspect). And there’s a wide gap between Prince Charming and egregious, into which most of the heroes fall. (Sorry, but I find debate by attributing extremes to the interlocutor unpersuasive.) If it’s any consolation to Captain Wentworth, I also find Mr. Knightley closer to the egregious end of things.

Trev wrote: "Before I sum up my thoughts on this reading of Persuasion I would like to share my enthusiasm for the modes of travel used by the characters in eighteenth and nineteenth century novels...."

Thanks, Trev! What an interesting article, even for someone like me who doesn't normally take much note of modes of transportation in literature.

Thank you everyone for joining me on this great (re)read of my (still) favourite Austen. There was lots of new stuff to think about and thanks also to all who added other details and information about the history/setting/culture of the time. These threads will remain open for further comments and discussion so feel free to keep the conversation going.