The Mookse and the Gripes discussion

Creation Lake by Rachel Kushner (Jonathan Cape)

I wasn't overly impressed with The Mars Room so I can't say I'm particularly excited about this one.

I think readers either click with Kushner or don't - I like her a lot and found this book fascinating.

This was tremendous fun I thought

Jean-Patrick Manchette (French crime novelist) meets David Reich (ancient human population geneticist) with a backdrop of post Marxist radicalism and to a soundtrack of Daft Punk.

Haha, great characterisation of this book!

love that description, GY! this is the one I’m most looking forward to reading from the longlist!

Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "Jean-Patrick Manchette (French crime novelist) meets David Reich (ancient human population geneticist) with a backdrop of post Marxist radicalism and to a soundtrack of Daft Punk."

Wow, as a fan of both, I just got more excited about this book.

For those who read it - just arrived at the athletics in Paris and Get Lucky is playing

Not seen any Neanderthals though.

The Guardian released its best novels of autumn 2024 list and included Creation Lake, saying:

Kushner made the Booker shortlist in 2018 with The Mars Room, about a lapdancer jailed for murder. She’s tipped to go one better with her new book, a brainy espionage caper whose wry humour stands out on this year’s longlist. The high-concept scenario is narrated – somewhat unreliably – by one Sadie Smith, a booze-addled American private investigator who rocks up in France to root out a claque of hard-left eco-saboteurs operating under the sway of a maverick scholar’s conspiracy theory about the fate of the Neanderthals. Think Mick Herron crossed with Eleanor Catton’s Birnam Wood.

I found the "tipped to go one better" comment eyebrow raising.

Cindy wrote: "The Guardian released its best novels of autumn 2024 list and included Creation Lake, saying:

Kushner made the Booker shortlist in 2018 with The Mars Room, about a lapdancer jailed for murder. She..."

Shortlisted? Jordan is big advocator of it

Not just shortlisted. She was shortlisted for The Mars Room so the "tipped to go one better" is a suggestion that it's the favorite to win.

But remember a colleague of the author of this article (and of course mutual colleague of a judge) predicted it to win the Booker back in January in the paper’s 2024 fiction preview

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2...

Yes I know. That's why it raised my eyebrows. Seems a bit cheeky for The Guardian, given who one of the judges is.

A review on the Telegraph yesterday tipped the novel for taking the prize.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/wha...

Cindy wrote: "The Guardian released its best novels of autumn 2024 list and included Creation Lake, saying:

Kushner made the Booker shortlist in 2018 with The Mars Room, about a lapdancer jailed for murder. She..."

Yes, the only thing better than the shortlist is the win, but I don't think this book is going to win. I will be disappointed if it does. It reminded me of Birnam Wood, and I hated that book.

This book was too hip, too something I don't like. It seems like Kushner set out to write a book with all the qualities the Booker committee looks for, which is okay, but she forgot, they also want books that seem as though they'll become a classic, and I don't see that with Creation Lake. I do with Playground.

That’s two of the UKs serious papers tipping it. One with potential insider knowledge

The FT was a lot less positive. Not sure the Times has reviewed.

Very few US reviews so far. The Washington Post liked it very much. Here is an excerpt from Kirkus:

Sadie is similar to Kushner’s earlier fictional protagonists—astringent, thrill-seeking, serious, worldly—but here the author has tapped into a more melancholy, contemplative mode that weaves neatly around a spy story. Nobody would mistake it for a thriller, but Kushner has captured the internal crisis of ideology that spy yarns often ignore, while creating an engaging tale in its own right. A deft, brainy take on the espionage novel.

It feels too quirky to win but I still struggle to see how in an industry now do female dominated the Booker can pick another male winner especially after the Paul debacle (although Paul debacles have been part of my life for decades to be fair)

Quite a few reviews are comparing this to Birnam Wood which I can completely see - but I really liked this and did not like BW am not sure why. I think it’s because the over the spy stuff here is integral to the novel whereas it seemed odd when it appeared in Catton’s novel.

It does certainly sound like Birnam Wood, which I was disappointed by, so I'm trying to withhold judgement until I read it.

I disliked the spy thriller aspect of both novels. To me, Creation Lake is just a bit too cheesy for want of a better word, and I'm sure there are better words out there. I think this one is going to come in near the bottom of my list. Did not like it at all. I think I liked this one least of all the thirteen. Sure, it's original, if one does not count Birnam Wood, but Geek Love is very original, too. And Birnam Wood got there first, so this isn't really original. To me, it's just a somewhat better written version of Birnam Wood.

On reflection I wonder if I am being entirely fair though to imply this is an imitation of Birnam Wood - I have not read Flamethrowers but it seems to have had a very similar style and many of the same ideas (eg radical activism) and the Buurdmoore character is straight from that novel. So I think Kushner may see this as very much in the tradition of her own writing.

One key difference between Birnam Wood and Creation Lake for me (but I am only half way) regards the main characters: Mira Bunting in Birnam Wood is a serious idealist, whereas Sadie Smith is the exact opposite - completely amoral.

Which I think is where I preferred Creation Lake

I admit I loved the plot and tension of Birnam Wood, but have to say Sadie Smith is becoming something of a hero to me :)

Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "On reflection I wonder if I am being entirely fair though to imply this is an imitation of Birnam Wood - I have not read Flamethrowers but it seems to have had a very similar style and many of the ..."

Just my opinion, but I think you are being fair. The two didn't write the same book, to be sure, but Kuchner's book isn't original enough for me to win the prize.

It’s the one I have left to re read … but I may wait until actually published as would like to read a hard copy.

Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "It’s the one I have left to re read … but I may wait until actually published as would like to read a hard copy."

I have to reread this one, too, and Playground. I might purchase a hard copy of Playground rather than the ebook. I really liked what I read from NetGalley. Held and Playground are my favorites, and I do want to own them.

Ruben wrote: "... but have to say Sadie Smith is becoming something of a hero to me :)"

This post warms my heart! I adored Reno, too, from Flamethrowers.

RC I understand the Burdmoore character is from that book?

Are there any other recurring characters.

Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "RC I understand the Burdmoore character is from that book?

Are there any other recurring characters."

I'm afraid I don't remember any of the characters apart from Reno, just the free-wheeling vibe that sort of unmakes the novel and the wildcat, anarchic energy of the whole thing.

Laura wrote: "I wasn't overly impressed with The Mars Room so I can't say I'm particularly excited about this one."

I couldn't get excited about this book, either, Laura. I don't think Kushner writes the kind of books I enjoy. I am drawn to very contemplative books that ask deeply philosophical questions and are filled with beautifully poetic writing, books like Anne Michaels writes, though I'm not necessarily drawn to imagistic books at the expense of more conventional plotting. I like both. Held would be far and away my very favorite if the ending weren't so chaotic. I think Michaels let it get away from her in the last third or fourth, though I can't see a writer as good as Michaels doing that. The prose might have been a little too self-assured in some places, too. That's why Playground is at the top of my list. Creation Lake isn't going to be at the bottom, but it's going to be near it.

This book isn't going to be on my own shortlist, but I would not be a bit surprised if it's on the Booker shortlist.

I agree with RC below you, one either clicks with Kushner or one doesn't, and I definitely don't. The characters of Reno and Sadie are the kind of characters I decidedly don't like. Too overwhelming, too kick-ass for me. Others may love them, and I have absolutely no problem with that. I just don't like them myself.

Interesting that one of Bruno’s obsessions is with how the ancient Polynesians settled such a vast area using sea fearing techniques which are still not understood by modern science - as that of course also comes up in Playground.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I think readers either click with Kushner or don't - I like her a lot and found this book fascinating."

I agree, I didn't get on with The Mars Room but I really liked The Flamethrowers and this works well as a loose sequel/companion piece. I enjoyed puzzling out the events/histories/theories she was drawing on, although it's a while since I read The Society of the Spectacle or The Coming Insurrection not that I imagine it's necessary to have read them to read this, it may even be a disadvantage of sorts. I'm not that on board with her political conclusions but I liked Sadie and I liked Kushner's ambition and was impressed by her research. Bruno's sections could maybe be trimmed back a little. I find a lot of American (and tbf British) fiction a tad parochial/overly conventional, I like that Kushner's trying to do something different.

I just re-read this - I enjoyed it again

Guardian is really going all in on this one.

In depth interview with the author today

https://www.theguardian.com/books/art...

Most of the US reviews are glowing, including The New York Times, The Boston Globe and the Los Angeles Times. The Wall Street Journal panned it:

"It’s necessary to be charmed by Bruno’s erudite email monologues, because this novel, surprisingly, lacks suspense ... Precious little happens in the book...and the pacing between minor events is agonizingly slow."

I am trying to remember if the novel is anti the stock markets as the two pan reviews are the WSJ and the FT.

Haha, Kushner it always critical of capitalism, of course.

I just finished this. Let me say at the outset that I have not been a Kushner fan in the past. Neither The Mars Room nor The Flamethrowers did much for me. I had read several reviews of this one and my reaction to reading them was that this book was not going to be for me. So that was my mindset when I started reading it.

Having said that, I wound up liking it more than I expected to. I did think that the "Bruno" sections went on for too long and became monotonous. The "Sadie" sections were more interesting to me, and I found myself eager to return to the novel every time I had to put it down. So that's all positive.

I did feel let down by the ending, and I agree (a little bit) with the Wall Street Journal which wrote that nothing happened in the novel. This is my favorite of Kushner's novels, but that's a low bar. It was fun to read (when the Bruno stuff didn't go on too long) and much more entertaining (and accomplished) than Birnam Wood. But I hope it is not this year's winner. I definitely think the glowing reviews are overdone.

Cindy wrote: "I just finished this. Let me say at the outset that I have not been a Kushner fan in the past. Neither The Mars Room nor The Flamethrowers did much for me. I had read several reviews of this one an..."

I think the WSJ critic's notion that nothing happens is a misreading of what Kushner's doing or at least depends on a very fixed notion of what constitutes an event. Kushner's partly pitting the philosophical, novel of ideas against conventional narrative centred on plot progression. The paralleling of Bruno and Sadie's narratives which unexpectedly cease to work in parallel but actually come together is quite a satisfying conclusion, although it could also be viewed as too neat, too slick. But the ending alters the significance of what came before, and in doing so forms a commentary on the nature of narrative, the novel as form, action versus ideas, forms of political activism/persuasion, what might/might not bring about radical change - the shift in consciousness that Bruno raises...I think that's partly why this made me think of Musil, particularly the initial depiction of Sadie's character but also the ground Kushner covers.

Brandon Taylor - who does seem to be shall we say somewhat trenchant in his views and seems to spend his time on Twitter starting fights in empty rooms - has been teasing a forthcoming review of "a book I disliked reading so much I developed psychosomatic Lyme symptoms ... weird intense limb-heaviness and malaise".

Reader - it was Creation Lake (and he's generally a Kushner fan). No idea if the criticisms are valid - and a lot of it is more a tipping point on a certain type of novel rather than this book

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v46/n...

It's possible that part of the issue for a number of American critics is that many/most of the texts that Kushner's in dialogue with are European. I read for example the 'breast' references as a dig/play on Houellebecq who's known for his rather reductionist representations of women: Serotonin seems to be one of the books that this one's in conversation with. It's interesting too that Taylor seems to focus on Sadie's character when arguably Bruno's narrative carries equal weight, particularly viewed in the context of the conclusion - perhaps because he's too focused on the conventional variation on a spy novel that frames Sadie's chapters? Although tbf with regards to Bruno and Sadie, Kushner does seem to be engaging in a certain amount of misdirection/literary sleight of hand in the earlier/middle sections of her novel.

This bit could apply to a lot of books - indeed the Wiki-novel is becoming a thing particularly in the sort of small-press 'innovative' literary fiction I tend to champion

A friend once described the Lehman Trilogy as ‘Wikipedia in play form’. I’ve thought of this description often, when reading recent novels which seem to confuse looking things up for erudition. I thought of it again, keenly, reading Creation Lake. The effect of ploughing through paragraph after paragraph of factoids about Neanderthals and geography and economics and evolutionary psychology was not that of encountering a great mind at work. Rather, it was as though someone had assembled some facts, given their sheaf of papers a shuffle and put them all into a novel so that some unsuspecting critic would hail it as ‘discursive’. This shoddy pseudo-thought is a blight. Shallow, rapidly swirling narrative consciousness has come to define the refugees of the Attention Span Wars, those writers whose capacity for concentration has been so compromised by the internet that they leave us not with a fragmented form – which might still have something to offer readers – but with the fragmentation of concentration itself.

People like Sebald use to write those sort of chain-of-association novels but those were well researched, erudite and there was a logic to the flow in the author's mind even if the reader sometimes wondered "how did we get here". The opening pages of Rings of Saturn are an exemplar of the form done well.

In the age of Wikipedia, the form can be a trap.

[again general observation - don't know if valid of this book]

I would take Taylor’s criticism more seriously if he had not written his own Booker shortlisted novel in about six weeks (according to him) largely as far as I can see by cutting and pasting various things he must have already written.

Then there is his inane Twitter feed

But I can see his point and yes Paul I agree there is a tendency to this novel-by-wiki

Alwynne can you talk a little more about what you felt about the ending as I was one of those who felt it not entirely successful but feel like I was missing something especially when I see how you describe it

On Serotonin a lightly disguised Houellebecq appears in the novel researching that very book doesn’t he.

Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "On Serotonin a lightly disguised Houellebecq appears in the novel researching that very book doesn’t he."

He definitely does, and I also felt that Creation Lake had a very European feel, not just because of its setting and its French characters. That doesn't mean it won't appeal broadly (witness the mostly glowing US reviews). But I personally can't gush about it, even though I did like it.

Just started this, loving it so far.