North & South discussion

For discussion of opening chapters 1-8:

Here we are introduced to several, but not all, of the characters in our story.

The earl and his wife, Lord and Lady Cumnor seem to have opposing natures. The earl is friendly and talkative to everyone, while the countess lives on dignity and propriety and is reserved and proper. The references to the townspeople's feudal-like fealty to this family I think is meant to smart a little and dampen the tendency to romanticize and idealize the past and the tranquility found in everyone knowing their stations in life.

At least it's apparent at the very beginning how much interest, glamor, and almost unquestioned loyalty and respect is paid to the peerage of Hollingsford. The event Molly is invited to is one of the gala events of the entire year.

What do you make of Clare? or of Molly's father?

I read the first three chapters last night. Wonderful! Thinking about your post on the first thread, Trudy, I was particularly struck by the long lyrical descriptions of the English countryside and of the gardens at the great house. "Near the house there were walls and fences; but they were covered with climbing roses, and rare honeysuckles and other creepers just bursting into bloom."

I liked Lord Cumnor and his 'pottering' expeditions. He has a good heart and I was happy to read that he "was a forbearing landlord; putting his steward a little on one side sometimes...." That one-way conversation with Molly's father was hilarious. I don't have a good feel for Lady Cumnor, yet, though she is a good deal more intimidating.

I'm a little on the fence about Molly's father--he seems kindly and clearly loves Molly, but he has such odd notions about women's education! ;)

I've read 14 chapters so far, oops, I forgot we were discussing 1-8 first! So far so good, I am enjoying the character development & the roles they play in each others lives. I'm not too sure of Clare, though. To me she seems sincere on first examination, but I'm having reservations now. I'm a little ahead, so I don't want to give anything away. I'll give more of a reason in the next set of chapters.

Clare isn't registering with me so far, except that she was kind to Molly when the poor child got stranded at Towers.

Now Mr. Gibson is another story altogether. He seems quite complex--clearly intelligent, a good clinician but he seems to have blind spot when it comes to Molly. Chapter 4 (view spoiler)[ He doesn't see her as she really must be--a beautiful young woman. At 17 she surely needs more of a social life than she is getting at home. Her father seems bent on over-protecting her and keeping her in perpetual childhood. Maybe I'm misreading this, but I didn't like the way he handled the love letter--he doesn't trust Molly enough to let her have the letter, but discuss the contents? Or am I being too 21st century here? (hide spoiler)]

I don't think you're being too 21st Century, Hana..although I could never understand how two people will meet each other for the first time in this era & instantly want to marry! Maybe now I'm being too 21st Century. Lol! Perhaps it was done out of necessity, given there weren't many eligible people around.

Mr Gibson seems to me a very affectionate, indulgent father. He is perhaps over-protective but he's very conscious that Molly doesn't have a mother.

I didn't like that he never explained to Molly about the letter but perhaps the maid is more to be pitied in the outcome of it?

If Molly can't figure it out by herself it shows she certainly wasn't ready to read and deal with the note herself.
I find myself cringing at what was expected of children back then. Clare makes a promise to Molly and then doesn't keep it.
Mr. Gibson can't do anything wrong in my eyes I'll even forgive him his blindness at what's yet to come, he just reminds me too much of my own father. The reason I love this story so very much

Hana - it does sound wonderful in Hollingsford, doesn't it? I think that is one thing that Gaskell loved forever about provincial life: the beauty of nature. Although she spent many years in Manchester, she always loved the countryside and probably longed for it. You can certainly tell she appreciates it by her lovely and detailed descriptions!

There are so many interesting facts from the introduction to my edition, that I'm sure I'll be sharing snippets here and there. Here's a fact taken from it:

"In 1801 most people in England lived in villages or farms, while in 1851 more than half the population of England was centered in the cities." (N&S was first serialized in 1854.)

Donna - I look forward to what you make of the characters as we go.

Louise - I love Mr Gibson for trying to do what he thinks is best. It seems the maid did get the worst of it. Can't believe she lost her job over that. It doesn't quite seem fair. She was being used as a conduit.

Fanny - Clare promised Molly she would wake her up in time. And then seemed to turn around and blame Molly for being a sleepyhead. I don't think Clare likes to appear at fault. ;)

I don't like that her father wouldn't share at least the basic facts behind the letter. I think he was afraid that revealing the notion would somehow make her start to have feelings for the boy in return.

The fact that Mr Gibson almost bemoans having Molly learn to read is rather shocking. At the same time, Clare's daughter is learning to be a governess and getting a decent education. I suppose it may all come down to what Mr Gibson perceives her position will be in life. If he only sees her as becoming a country wife, then the higher learning is something of a waste?

Trudy wrote: "Clare promised Molly she would wake her up in time. And then seemed to turn around and blame Molly for being a sleepyhead. I don't think Clare likes to appear at fault. ;)..."

That struck me as well! I'm inclined to sympathize with Clare's struggle to earn a living and her relief when she visits Towers: "Now here, money is like the air they breathe. No one even asks of knows how much the washing costs, or what pink ribbon is a year."

And Mr. Gibson's domestic struggles earlier and in chapter 9--that dreadful meal served up for Lord Hollingford--make (view spoiler)[the match between Gibson and Clare seem rather a good idea for both parties. (hide spoiler)]

I have just completed these chapters.

I was struck by Gibson's attitude toward the education of his only child/daughter, though I should not have been.

I asked myself why I was shocked by Gibson's attitude/indecision regarding whether his daughter should even read/write knowing what I do about the 19 C attitudes toward women.

I think that I was struck by this attitude in him because he is educated and a man with only one daughter as an offspring and should be a little more "liberal." But I see these factors do not matter.

That was my reaction exactly, Andrea. Gaskell reads so like a modern author that I sometimes forget what time she is writing about, and how different attitudes often were.

Has anyone looked into a translation of the Latin recipe that Mr. Gibson gave to Mr. Coxe? I'm very curious about it but haven't tried to research it yet.

Mr. Gibson certainly has blinders on with his daughter. He treats her like a child and doesn't realize that she needs some help choosing appropriate/stylish clothing. I was kind of cringing with the whole clothing choice thing ... though her father probably wouldn't want her to look too stylish anyway.

I tried Google Translate, which includes Latin (!), and here's a rough translation of the medical "recipe" Mr. Gibson gave Coxe in Chapter 5:

Recipe:
Ounce of shame
Ounce of domestic fidelity.
3 grams of reticence.

Dosage: take this three times a day in pure water.

My book has a footnote: "....prescription consisting of modesty, domestic fidelity, and deference; mix in water and take three times a day"

It's a clever way for a doctor to send his pupil a message about a touchy subject.

Clearly, Dr Gibson was busy with his day-to-day routines and hadn't really noticed his little girl was grown up enough to attract romantic attention. Simply put, he wasn't ready to deal with it.

This is the one event that sets the whole story in motion. And we're to watch how Molly is handled.

Hana wrote: "Clare isn't registering with me so far, except that she was kind to Molly when the poor child got stranded at Towers.

Now Mr. Gibson is another story altogether. He seems quite complex--clearly in..."

Perhaps Mr. Gibson is so busy with his practice that he hasn't noticed that his daughter has grown into a young woman.

Also, if Mr. Gibson does start to treat Molly like a young woman, that will increase his concerns. He'll have to worry about getting her clothed properly, perhaps chaperonage and gasp, suitors! All of this would take more of his time and also would cost money as well, such as for a paid companion (older lady), clothes etc.

Also, it is probably not easy with his responsibilities to be a single parent of a young woman.

Trudy wrote: "Hana - it does sound wonderful in Hollingsford, doesn't it? I think that is one thing that Gaskell loved forever about provincial life: the beauty of nature. Although she spent many years in Manche... "In 1801 most people in England lived in villages or farms, while in 1851 more than half the population of England was centered in the cities." (N&S was first serialized in 1854.) "

From 1801 - 1851 it sounds as if England underwent a radical change. Could it (change) have been driven by industrialization?

With regard to Clare, it seems that she didn't regard Molly's request to be woken in time to get a ride home, as Molly was a child and of little status or import--not worth Clare putting herself out for anything.

Also, Clare seem to shift the blame for the affair onto poor Molly.

Andrea (Catsos Person) wrote: "Also, Clare seem to shift the blame for the affair onto poor Molly...." Yes! It's a kind of petty dishonesty that's not at all attractive but can become almost a habit.

I think she genuinely forgot all about her, and yes she won't take the blame for it.

I think it's significant that what Molly remembers from that privileged outing -- the event of the year for the ladies of Hollingsford -- is pretty much all negative. "Oh, I do hope I shall never be a lord or lady."
Of course, she's only 12 and she's had a rather bad day, but she hasn't found the atmosphere in that environment comfortable. Her upbringing has been rather casual, close, and practical. She doesn't like all the ceremony, cavernous space, and rigid practices.
I really love Gaskell for taking all the wind out of the sails in romanticizing wealth and rank. Her heroes are common people.

Yes, I think Clare genuinely forgot her sleeping little guest. But truly, Clare has an extraordinary talent for twisting things to make the other person seem at fault!

Andrea - yes, this was the century of unprecedented industrialization. The way of life captured in this book is on the verge of great change.

Chapter One

So I have begun again and as I'd bought both the audible and kindle versions I thought I'd open them both together... don't ask why, just a whim.

Anyway there's a very long analysis at the beginning of my kindle version that talks as much about Mrs Gaskell's life as the book and then goes on to explain that there are three versions of the text, the original manuscript, the published monthly serial and the revised published book text. So far so good.

It is useful to be able to see the text while it plays, however much I enjoyed listening to it, because there are some odd local words that it helps to see written down... but though both are unabridged texts, apparently synced it quickly became clear that there were minor discrepancies. I mention it mostly because I could see some confusion happening if there are others here with different versions, and because I find it interesting to see what was revised.

For example in the Kindle version 'there was a great Whig family in the county who, from time to time, came forward and contested the election with rival Tory family of Cumnor.' When listened to, it is the Cumnor's who are the Whig's. Presumably their actual politics is not important to the novel.

The Kindle version also states that at the time Molly visited, Clare is staying at the Tower's 'with her little girl' which I think is incorrect...

As far as (third) first impressions go, the inhabitants of the towers seem to do what they think is expected in terms of duty without being particularly invested in the community and it seems that Dr Gibson will go out of his way to please his daughter.

Molly herself is quiet and unassuming, able to express herself to her father but not spoiled by his indulgences.

That's a good observation. Molly is an only child and her father loves her, but she isn't spoiled. I think that speaks well both of her father's loving but disciplined attitudes and of Molly's natural tendencies.

It's somewhat difficult for me to try to describe the relationship between Molly and her father. There's so much unspoken affection. Mr Gibson is a man of few words. So very practical and dutiful. Perhaps all his running off to care for the various locals has taught Molly to be aware of others' needs. And she knows the value of being inconvenienced for others' sakes.

Chapter Two

I get the impression that Clare believes she's very kind and fond of Molly and her daughter, while in reality is rather selfish.

I agree Trudy but Molly is also very shy and doesn't like to be noticed by strangers. With her father she is quite outspoken but he encourages her, they have a good understanding.

There are some lovely words in these chapters that I didn't really take in when listening to it.

I've seen the mini-series so I know the story and my opinions are colored by that. I like Lord C, he's very jolly and not too high in the instep. Lady C is kind of selfish and indifferent to those outside the family. I do NOT like Clare. She's selfish and while she seems kind on the surface, her actions are anything but. She forgot all about Molly, expected a child to automatically wake up and know when to go home, dismissed Molly's fears and concerns about being away from her father and then didn't want to help shy Molly say good-bye to her hosts. By the end of ch. 8 we know a lot more about Clare that I don't like. However, like I said, I know the story from the miniseries so I just don't like her.

Mr. Gibson has blinders on the entire novel. He didn't handle the situation of calf love very well though I don't blame him for suddenly discovering his little girl is all grown up and not liking it.

What do you think of the Hamleys? I liked the Squire in the miniseries. Michael Gambon's acting was wonderful. I'm not liking him much so far in the book. He's too stuck in old-fashioned ways and has too high expectation for his eldest son and too low for the younger. Actually I think my dad
s father was somewhat like that with my dad being Osborne and my uncle (who has a learning disability) as Roger. Mrs. Hamley is someone I can't figure out. is she really ill or in of attention?

QNPB, I like you description of Mr. Gibson as having blinders. It's very apt.

I think that the blinders are in deadly combination with inconsideration.

Chapter Three

Molly shows quite a strong spirit, standing up for her governess, requesting further education from her father. It is a wonder she is silent for so long when she grows up, but then she respects her father and clearly has a comfortable relationship with him until he re-marries.

I can understand Mr Gibson not wanting his daughter to grow up too fast, but I do find it surprising that he should be so against her being educated, in all other respects and in the way he treats her, he doesn’t strike me as the sort. It is undoubtedly a reflection of the time and the feelings then but it seems a shame somehow than an otherwise enlightened man should not truly value his daughter’s intellect.

Chapter 4

Mr Gibson seems to have more intelligence than most of his contempories, and finds himself making fun of them, though not to cause pain… he really needs more people he can talk to as an equal.

I like Squire Hamley from the first… he’s kind even though he dismisses things he doesn’t understand, and he wants his family to be happy and have every opportunity.

Mr Coxe I think would never make a good doctor, he has the understanding needed but not the heart… I could wish our current medical profession was like Mr Gibson though.

re: women's education... there was a growing movement for higher education for women though. The days of ignorant middle-and upper class women were pretty much past by the early 19th century. Even Mr. Darcy's list of accomplishments is pretty wide though it doesn't include mathematics or science. I had a lovely chat with a mother of three girls in the year 1800 (reenactment at a local house museum) and her middle daughter was an accomplished musician, writer and astronomer! 25 years later she was supporting her family after the death of her husband. The mother remarked that her daughters couldn't even bake a cake.

I think Molly's father just doesn't understand women or know what is right for a girl. He really needed to send Molly to a female relative or remarry much sooner. I can easily understand Molly's feelings on learning the [s]bad[/s] news. What teenage girl would welcome a stepmother with open arms? My best friend was only a bit younger than Molly when her dad remarried and her stepmother has children around our age which made my only child best friend a part-time middle child. It was and still is awkward when she visits with her dad's family. Unlike Molly, she had a mother she was close to and could talk to.

QPNB, thanks for your insights about the state of women's education for the period.

P.S. I hope that yr best friend's father didn't strong arm her into calling his wife "Mamma." I was just appalled when Gibson did this to Molly.

Andrea (Catsos Person) wrote: "QPNB, thanks for your insights about the state of women's education for the period.
"

Good blog post on the topic of 19th century women's education. Mr. Gibson was a bit old-fashioned but not alone. Poor Molly sounds like she could have handled and enjoyed a higher education.

Actually the stepmother gave her a choice between Mom and first name. Since my friend had a mom, she chose first name. I think in Molly's case, she doesn't remember her mother and it was fairly common to call a stepparent Mama or Papa. Again it shows Mr. Gibson is completely clueless.

Chapter Five

I think Mr Gibson might give up on the human race if he knew how young, girls start dating now, and I can’t imagine one that would submit to not reading a note that was addressed to her. Still, I think his handling of Mr Coxe was well done, when you think that the young man is not simply an admirer but is staying in the house... he could not only make Molly very uncomfortable but it could harm her reputation.

I agree Andrea that it was unkind to make Molly call his new wife Mamma... it is similar to Cynthia's comment that her mother didn't believe she could have feelings about her father, since they are both too young to really remember them it is assumed that it cannot really hurt them.

Chapter Six

Isn’t it strange that Osbourne should be thought clever and likely to do well for liking and writing poetry and Roger slow, for being scientific… I don’t think we would see it quite that way now.


Chapter Seven

I can’t help liking the Hamley’s, this is a pleasant interlude for Molly.

Louise S., that is indeed very "interesting" that the son who composes poems is considered a genious and likely to win a fellowship, and the scientist is "slow." How things have changed...

I thought Mrs. Hamley was so sweet to give some motherly attention to a lonely little girl who spends most of her time with hired help.

Yes, I can only think that it's because Osbourne has shown himself lively and quick witted and Roger is quiet and thoughtful... and I think in that case, things haven't changed. People who make the right noises (whatever they actually accomplish) tend to be valued over those that just get things done but don't promote themselves very well.

I think Mrs Hamley receives as much benefit from being allowed to give motherly attention to girl as Molly, the Squire dotes on her but doesn't really enter into her feelings and doesn't know how to.


Chapter Eight

Poor Roger Hamley, Osbourne has left him to tell his bad news to his parents and try to get them back in a better frame of mind and Molly is too caught up in the parent’s opinion to help him.

Clare’s letter to the Cumnors seemed a little too obvious a request for an invite… and clearly Lady Cumnor had very little idea what went on in her school room or how well Clare really did as a governess, though it doesn’t seem to bother any of them.

I love your thoughts on each chapter, Louise. :)

Did anyone else squirm at the Squire's aversion to having Molly as a possible daughter-in-law? He was anxious for her to leave the Hall before the boys came home! His ideas of his family's grandeur goes a little too far in this instance. He really loves Molly, yet she wouldn't be good enough for his sons.

And this really unkind snobbery seems even more heartless since he himself married for love and wouldn't have married anyone else but his one true love!

As to the comparison of the sons:
Osbourne exhibits all the characteristics that are deemed desirable in higher circles. Whereas Roger is slower socially (is more quiet, less exhibitive) and his interests are tied to the land: creatures and plants.

Just like in N&S in which Thornton is a "great, rough fellow" instead of a more delicate gentleman, Gaskell seems to make her readers look harder than surface appearances and temporary ideals for real beauty.

I love that she quietly exalts the ones that are overlooked because they don't fit the mold.

Trudy, I squirmed about the squire's belief that only he and his wife seemed to be the only people who could be in love and not his sons.

His snobbery about trying to keep his sons from the "temptation" of falling in love with Molly did not surprise me considering how obsessed everyone was with (imagined in some cases) rank or some sort of pecking order at that time.

Thanks Trudy, and yes the Squire has some odd notions!

As my Kindle copy has a slightly different translation of Mr Gibson's prescription I thought I would include it here...

The prescription reads: Take. Of Modesty one ounce. Of Respect of the Home one ounce. Of Silence three grains. Mix. (Let the patient) take this dose three times a day in pure water. R. Gibson, Surgeon

Gaskell, Elizabeth (1987-11-19). Wives and Daughters (Oxford World's Classics) (Kindle Locations 12063-12066). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.