North & South discussion

For discussion of chapters 9-16

Oh my! Chapter 11 has most awkward marriage planning sessions ever! The scenes between Clair/Hyacinth and Mr. Gibson were rather cringe worthy. The encounter between Molly, Lady Cumnor and Hyacinth was almost painful to read--that bit where Hyacinth keeps stroking Molly's hand and then Molly pulls her hand away was just brilliant.

Molly's reaction to all this in Chapter 10 was devastating and so well drawn. "So I was sent out of the house that all this might be quietly arranged in my absence?" Wow--that's a gut-punch of a statement as is her father's response: "I think it's better for both of us for me to go away now. We may say things difficult to forget."

Gaskell has such a gift for revealing emotions through dialog or little gestures like that one.

Meanwhile, I think I'm falling in love with Roger :)

Agreed, on all counts. I love Roger's compassion. He could have gone on with his day without a second thought for the little teenager and her drama.

I just got to chapter 14 where he brings Molly a wasp's nest as a present. Any many who brought me a wasp's nest would have my love forever :D

I really like Roger..he seems such a caring person. It makes me wonder what Osborne is really like. His mother sings his praises every chance she gets, but I have a sneaking suspicion he not as perfect as she wants him to be.

I just met Osborne in Chapter 14 and I think you are right, Donna!

I think the Roger of the adaptation is the least like his description of all the characters, and I'm finding Osbourne less likeable but I'm really enjoying the read.

This is my first time through the book and I haven't seen the mini-series. I'm going to watch it as soon as I've finished reading.

I haven't seen the mini series either, & I will be anxious to watch it as soon as I'm done with the book.
I have my suspicions about Clare too, just as I do about Osborne!

I just finished chapter 16: (view spoiler)[Clare/Hyacinth is getting more and more detestable, and mean to Molly. I'm hoping that one of these times Molly starts to assert herself rather than being acted upon, (hide spoiler)]but I'm not holding my breath.

I totally agree on Clare/Hyacinth. What do you make of her insistence that her daughter not come over from France? Is it just vanity? I forget the exact quote, something about the faded bride beside her beautiful young daughter? If that's her only reason it's incredibly immature and shallow and also uncaring. It made me feel rather sorry in advance for Cynthia.

And that business about not allowing cheese to come beyond the kitchen! She has totally forgotten what Molly told her.

I nearly wept when I read in Ch. 16 about Molly's bedroom with all the "cherished relics of her mother's maiden-days consigned to the lumber room." I think Molly is in shock--and perhaps it might even be said that she's in mourning. She's lost the special relationship she has with her father, and now it's as if she's lost her mother all over again.

I agree, I thought the same about Clare not wanting her daughter to attend her wedding, something is behind this & I believe Clare means to treat Molly in the same way. If she could ship her off somewhere, she would.

I believe the real reason Hyacinth doesn't want her daughter to be bridesmaid is spelled out in the opening paragraph of Ch. 11:

"...she had felt how disagreeable it would be to her to have her daughter flashing out her beauty by the side of the faded bride, her mother ..."

Hyacinth is shallow enough to want to keep her daughter from attending so that she won't outshine her!

Yes, I do think that was the reason. I believe she will be feeling the same with Molly as well. She can't very well throw Molly out of her own father's house, without him objecting or seeing Clare in a whole different light. But I do have my doubts about Clare's sincerity in her treatment of Molly.

Hana wrote: "I just got to chapter 14 where he brings Molly a wasp's nest as a present. Any many who brought me a wasp's nest would have my love forever :D"

*Sigh* a wasps nest!

If that is not a token of regard, I don't know what is!

Tadiana wrote: "I just finished chapter 16: [spoilers removed]but I'm not holding my breath."

Too true Tadiana.

I think that This book is depressing.

My heart just broke when Hyacinthe insisted on redecorating Molly's room.

I don't trust Osbourne since he gets on with Hyacinthe.

In addition, I had an evil thought: Maybe sickly Osbourne will die off leaving everything to Roger, who would marry Molly.

Ooh, Andrea! Maybe you're right on that last point but we still have about six hundred pages to go!

Meanwhile, I can't help feeling that Mr. Gibson has trapped himself and will probably live to regret it as much as his daughter does. We talked about Molly growing a spine--I'm waiting for the good doctor to see what's happening and step in.

The swiftness in which (view spoiler)[ Mr. Gibson goes from considering marrying to proposing to Clare is stunning! (hide spoiler)] I think it all happens in just a day or two!

Gaskell is taking a look at the institution of marriage throughout and we're seeing all the different reasons and expectations involved in making matches at the time.

I was disappointed that Mr Gibson was remembering his past loves in Chapter 12, and that his deceased wife didn't really number among them! Apparently, Mr. Gibson marries for practical reasons, not romantic ones.

Perhaps Mr. Gibson separated love from marriage and did not think his loves fit to be wives capable of keeping him free of all domestic concerns?

Possibly. His views on love and marriage make me wonder what he expected for Molly.

That is a good question. Just what does Mr. Gibson want for a marriage for Molly?

Well I think we know that by the end ;)

I really can't stand Hyacinth. She's selfish and shallow. She's not even trying to pretend to be sympathetic to Molly or even a good and caring wife. She doesn't care for her husband's dedication to his very worthy profession, she could care less about the way the Gibsons are used to doing things, she has no sense of sentimentality, she's jealous of her own daughter and flirts with Osborne, who is what? half her age. She's constantly rude to Molly, insisting that she knows better than Molly about everything. My heart broke for Molly when Hyacinth insisted on consigning the first Mrs. Gibson's furniture to the lumber room. I could see if it was in a public room but it was in Molly's room out of the way. The adults in Molly's life are all determined to keep Molly as a child and not allow her to become the woman she is.

what do you think about the timing of Coxe's going away? would Mr. Gibson have been in such a rush to marry if Coxe had gone away sooner? I think he still would have thought about it but thought a little longer. I wonder about Jennie and his second love too. Marrying for practical reasons was the norm at the time. Molly's generation was pretty much the first to be indulged and allowed to marry for love - sometimes. Money and social position always trumps love. The daughters of a local merchant/businessman chose men their father didn't approve of. The youngest got pregnant on purpose to marry her rakish suitor and the middle waited 8 years before finally running off with her suitor. I think Elizabeth Gaskell is making a commentary on society and how much money and social position was valued and the other cold reasons why people married.

I'm not too enthusiastic about either of the Osborne boys. Roger is the strong, silent type. He's also not spoiled like his brother so he is allowed to pursue his passion and allow his natural aptitude to direct him without expectations. They're so much like my dad and uncle! My dad was the prized oldest son and had great expectations put on him while my uncle struggled with a learning disability and it was assumed he would never make anything of himself. He's now a CPA and business owner. I suspect Roger is going to surprise the Squire!

Mr Coxe is removed from the house just about the time the doctor brings his new wife home. The passages at the end of Ch. 15 showing his anger at the timing of things suggests to me he already has regrets he's trying not to acknowledge. If the young Coxe had been removed earlier, he wouldn't have sought a wife. Now he's stuck.

The Squire and his wife married for love. It doesn't look like the Cumnors did. But that's to be expected. Both Molly's father and Hyacinth married for expedient relief of their particular situations. It was truly a hastily-made deal.

I feel sorry for Hyacinth in a way. She seems to have no capacity for true affection. She doesn't love anyone.

I want to feel sorry for Hyacinth because she was in a tough spot and married for convenience because she pretty much had to, but she has to empathy and very little understanding of the needs of anyone besides herself. I'm wondering what kind of teacher she was if she wasn't a great governess and if that's why her school failed.

Chapter Nine

Clare wants to be looked after… there’s no malice in her she just wants the life of the ladies at the Towers instead of her own, but she’s shallow and selfish while she does whatever she can to achieve it.

The Cumnor’s are clearly richer and more refined than the Hamley’s but all the feeling; affection, passion, anger is in the Squire’s family. The Cumnors do care, but not very deeply it seems, and it suits them to have Clare there, it’s convenient and not too much trouble.

I don’t think Mr Gibson has the time to go courting, he has what he sees as a problem and Mrs Kirkpatrick might solve that problem. He should have got to know her better and discussed her with Molly.

Chapter Ten

What do you think of Mr Gibson’s proposal? Given that they hardly know each other and it was more for convenience than anything else, I didn’t think it was too bad.

Poor Molly, it was a shock for her. Seventeen years is perhaps too old to accept a new mother… it wouldn’t be so bad these days because if they didn’t get on they probably wouldn’t be under the same roof for very long, and it’s unlikely that a new mother would be expected to take charge of her or that the daughter would allow it. Molly’s only chance of escape is her own marriage which Gibson isn’t going to allow any time soon.

Molly blames herself about the encounter with her father more I think, than he ever does, which might help to make her accept it, but it still seems unfair given the way he went about it all.

Roger is very kind but I can see how someone less interested in learning than Molly could find him a little boring. I loved the description of his catch, it’s not every girl that would want to see the contents of that net!

He had been out dredging in ponds and ditches, and had his wet sling-net, with its imprisoned treasures of nastinesss, over his shoulder.

I liked Mrs Hamley’s response to the news too, although Roger’s practical advice helped Molly, she raised a very relevant point,

‘That’s so like a man. Why, half the character of the affair lies in the question of whom it is that he is going to marry.’

Molly may have to accept it, and for her father’s sake accept it graciously, but she doesn’t have to like it.

As amusing as the dialogue is, I think Mr Gibson is at fault in ridiculing his wife and daughter-in-law’s names to Molly, he’s so correct in everything else in what he expects of her, he shouldn’t be showing disrespect towards them… though I suppose it shows that he is open and honest with his daughter still.

Louise, I thought the proposal and its acceptance was more like two parties agreeing to "do business" than anything else.

I'm a little farther along than you are in the book, but I recall being rather shocked (in a 21 C way to be sure!) at Gibson's lack of nervousness or angst or male sensibility leading up to actually making the proposal.

At least Gibson and Hyacinthe didn't make any hypocritical attempts at expressing an interest in getting to know one another!

Chapter Eleven

I can’t help liking Lady Cumnor for all her odd ways.

This chapter seems to show quite well how the relationships between the characters will develop. Hyacinth is all protestations of affection for Molly and her father but any attempt to get her to really deepen those connections she brushes aside, much as she does with her own daughter. Whenever Cynthia is mentioned she seems to turn the conversation back to herself in her answer. We even have an indication of what will happen about the things she doesn’t like in the Gibson’s household… she will do everything to make his life easy, except anything she doesn’t like, such as allow him cheese etc.

Molly’s friendship with Roger too is developing well. He does justice to her feelings and tries to be of use to her, and she values his help and knowledge better than his own parents.

Andrea (Catsos Person) wrote: "Louise, I thought the proposal and its acceptance was more like two parties agreeing to "do business" than anything else.

I'm a little farther along than you are in the book, but I recall being r..."

True, but he is somewhat caught up in the moment and is thinking that he likes her for himself as well as his daughter and she, I think, is genuinely grateful (if not for the right reasons).

Trudy wrote: "Mr Coxe is removed from the house just about the time the doctor brings his new wife home. The passages at the end of Ch. 15 showing his anger..." That was devastating--Mr. Gibson's impulsive decision will have life-long consequences and probably not positive.

QNPoohbear, I also sort of wanted to feel empathy for Hyacynth. When she broke down crying at the proposal that seemed like a real moment but now that her position is secure she seems determined to be the elegant lady of the house no matter what the effect on others.

Andrea (Catsos Person) wrote: "Louise, I thought the proposal and its acceptance was more like two parties agreeing to "do business" than anything else." Although Mr Gibson does find her attractive with her soft voice and lavender gowns.

Maybe he sees Molly growing up and that makes him aware not just of his inadequacies as a solo parent, but also of his own potential loneliness when Molly eventually marries. Both Mr. Gibson and Hyacynth are at that age when one feels time passing very fast and they are primed to take that one last chance.

Chapter Twelve
I think some of Clare’s motives, as revealed in this chapter are understandable at least, even if her behaviour makes her look bad. Who would not want an easier life than the one she had been leading… I don’t think she’s very good with money though and Mr Gibson may learn to regret that more than the rest. Her treatment of Cynthia is terrible.

Poor Phoebe Browning, hoping just a little only to be dashed down, and her sister so ready with her opinions but not willing to listen to anyone correct her.

“I’ll retract anything sooner than be reasoned with.”

… I’ve known people like that!

Anyone else think it’s odd that Miss Browning is asked to take on the role of interior designer… can you imagine how a bride now would react to finding out her new husband asked his ex-wife’s best friend to come in and decorate just before they married?

Asking a dead wife's best friend to decorate is a howler.

Chapter Thirteen

I’m not sure what should and shouldn’t be a spoiler at this point, it’s my second run through and it’s almost impossible to put some things without referencing later events so please excuse me if I slip.

Mr Preston (view spoiler)[flirted with Clare before falling for Cynthia and is now determined to flirt with Molly so that the bride doesn’t expect his attentions. Of course considering the bride, she probably would expect them! (hide spoiler)] … I didn’t get a particularly bad impression of him, except perhaps that he thinks highly of himself. It is fortunate that Molly isn’t inclined to fall for him I suppose.

I think that Preston has a tremendous ego seems to think every woman is supposed to welcome his attentions.

I was so glad that Molly disliked him.

She has taste.

Chapter Fourteen

I can’t help liking Lady Harriet and the way she takes to Molly, though it’s no doubt that keeping company with Molly a little more often would do her some good.

We meet Osborne Hamley… I don’t think fussy, effeminate men, really appeal to me but his relationship with his brother suggests that he’s a good person. Having said that, I don’t think I’d appreciate the present of a wasp’s nest either.

Chapter Fifteen

There’s so much to Clare’s discredit in this chapter I can’t list it all… I could almost say that Mr Gibson deserves the havoc to his digestive system, but he actually meant the marriage for the best.

That he is already having regrets when he knows Mr Coxe is to leave him must make it all the harder, but I find myself wishing he’d stand up to her more.

Chapter Sixteen

Mrs Gibson does at least help Molly to look her best, even if it's not from unselfish motives... but then she relapses completely again in her interest of Osborne Hamley and changing Molly's bedroom etc.

The scene with the Squire was painful... I think Clare believes she’s teaching Molly to be a lady, it’s not malice, but she completely misses the point having no conception it seems, of other people’s feelings. The things she values seem so superficial.

I thought the episode with Molly's bedroom was just appalling.

What kind of human being doesn't understand The reason for Molly's attachment to her bed and furnishings?

Clare is a horrible shallow woman, really dead inside after changing Molly's bedroom, with no regard for anyone's feelings, not even those of her own child.

Monstrous.

Yes, she could have asked Molly to pick a few new things so that it could be seen that she was treating her too, without forcing her to give up the things that mattered most.

Totally agree on this--that scene did it for me on Clare.

Louise Sparrow wrote: "Chapter Sixteen
I think Clare believes she’s teaching Molly to be a lady, it’s not malice, but she completely misses the point having no conception it seems, of other people’s feelings. The things she values seem so superficial. "

I think you nailed Clare/Hyacinth/Mrs. Gibson. She represents the social climbing middle class. She's kind of a wannabe "mushroom" as Georgette Heyer termed the nouveau riche. Hyacinth acts like a mushroom but doesn't have the money to back it up. Her values are very distorted and I'm sure Gaskell was making a statement about that sort of thing.

Clare may be an ambitious, social-climbing mushroom, but she is not all all classy in behavior or as they would have perhaps said at the time of the story, she lacked good breeding--was not well-bred.

Andrea (Catsos Person) wrote: "Clare may be an ambitious, social-climbing mushroom, but she is not all all classy in behavior or as they would have perhaps said at the time of the story, she lacked good breeding--was not well-bred."

This is true and it shows in her behavior. Even if she climbed as high as she wanted, Lady Cumnor and the Duchess wouldn't accept her as an equal.