Catholic Thought discussion

Summary

Book 2, Chapter 3: The Ring Goes South

After the Council, the hobbits gathered together, and Merry and Pippin complained that they too should go on the mission. But it was still a long time until the mission would commence. Bilbo and Frodo spent the time planning on a book to be written detailing all the adventures.

Two months passed and at the end of December Elrond gathered everyone to launch the plan. Elrond then formulated the band that would be a mix company of various races: Gandalf as wizard, Legolas representing the elves, Gimli son of Glóin for the dwarves, Aragorn and Boromir as men, and Frodo and Sam for the hobbits. Merry and Pippin insisted they follow Frodo, and after some resistance, Elrond and Gandalf relented. Swords were forged anew by the elvish smiths, and Bilbo gave Frodo his sword, Sting. On a night in late December, along with a donkey named Bill, the company set off.

Their initial plan was to head south, following the spine of the Misty Mountains until they would reach Caradhras, the highest peak of the Misty Mountains where the Redhorn Gate could be found. The Redhorn Gate allowed passage through a valley between the mountains called Dimrill Dale, which served as the easiest passage to get to the east side of the Misty Mountains. Along the way about a fortnight into the journey and before they reached the valley, the weather turned. The wind picked up and it got even colder.

At a point called Hollin Ridge, they stopped to make camp. Aragorn could sense they were being watched, and a flock of birds circled overhead. When the company embarked again, the terrain got steep and difficult with many cliffs to maneuver. Snow began to fall and then accelerate. They wondered if the snow was a “contrivance of the enemy.” The snowfall built into a blinding blizzard. They had to stop and make camp again.

When they rose in the morning light, the path was snowed over and the route was unclear. Legolas was sent out to scout the area and came back with information of a great snow drift ahead which blocked passage. They retreated back down the mountain. Caradhas had defeated them.

Book 2, Chapter 4: A Journey in the Dark

As they sat and contemplated their next course of action, Gandalf proposed another way to get east of the mountains, to go through Khazad-dûm, also known as the Mines of Moria, an ancient underground kingdom of the Dwarves that had long since been abandoned. But there were doors on both the west and east sides of the mountains. They could enter through the west door and then make their way through the labyrinth of tunnels until they could come out the east door.

Boromir disagreed with the plan. He wanted to continue south to the end of the Misty Mountains and pass through the Gap of Rohan. But that was rejected since Saruman controlled that area. Gimli was thrilled with Gandalf’s plan. He wanted to visit the land of his ancestors. The others were not thrilled to pass through the underground, but ultimately they all chose to follow Gandalf. Boromir relented and followed only because he was alone in his dissent.

They still had some twenty miles before reaching the west gate of Moria but in the sound of the wind they could hear the howls of the wolves called Wargs, creatures under the command of the Enemy. That night they camped huddled close to the fire while the howls of the wolves came nearer. Finally the wolves sprang into an attack and the company formed a defensive position with their swords drawn. Several of the wolves were killed but no harm came to any of the company. But then they made haste to the gate in fear of another attack.

Once there they found the stone steps that led to the west gate, also known as the Doors of Durin. But the path to the doors was obstructed by a body of water which had pooled up by the damming to the Sirannon Stream. They had to circle around the flooded land until they finally reached the west gate door. It was at this point they had to abandon much of their belongings and let Bill the donkey go. Sam was distraught at leaving poor Bill to the fate of the wolves.

But once at the door there was another problem. A password was required to open the doors and Gandalf could not remember it. At the door there was a sketch of pillars and trees, an arch, an anvil and a crown, and elvish writing encircling the emblem. It was when Gandalf realized the word was written in the elvish writing that he remembered the password being Mellon, the elvish word for “friend.” With its incantation, the doors slowly swung open and after they entered the doors swung back closed.

The tunnels were dark and they only had Gandalf’s lighted staff as light. There were dangers they had to avoid, such as holes which dropped far down to tunnels below and chasms which had to be by-passed or jumped. They continued inward on a path that sloped downward into the earth. At one point they heard the rapping sound of a hammer but in a sequence that suggested a communicative code. They huddled in the dark when time to sleep and they held watches while the others slept.

Finally they came to a three-way split in the path, a tunnel to the left that sloped downward, a tunnel in the center that maintained the same horizontal grade, and a tunnel to the right that sloped upward. Gandalf could not remember which would lead out and the company took a break for him to ponder on it. Finally he decided the correct choice was the right tunnel that sloped upward. They took it and continued on. It had been now several days walking the mines, and as everyone was about to tire out, they came to an open cavernous area that was more hospital. They spent the night there. Gimli chanted an ancient Dwarf song that recalled the history of Khazad-dûm. He told the company of the Moria silver which had been mined and Frodo mentioned how Bilbo had been gifted a treasure of it. Finally the next morning as they found their way to a shaft before the East gate they came across the tomb of Balin, the Dwarf leader who had befriended Bilbo many years before.

Not only were these chapters long, but I had the most difficult time understanding the locations. I had to really stop and understand the names of the key places. One of the difficulties which I did not realize at first is that many of the places have multiple names, in elvish or dwarf or man language. Was such confusion really worth the similitude it might provide? I don't know. It's one of the reasons I'm not exactly crazy about novels built on these fantasy worlds.

But it all made sense once I straightened out the journey route and the locations. If anyone finds any errors in my summary, please correct me. I suspect many of you just glossed over these place locations, so my summary might be very helpful. It did seem to all make sense. I didn't come across any flaws in Tolkien's creation.

You seem to move seamlessly from one event to another, Manny. Thank you!

I wanted to point out that today, September 2, is the anniversary of J.R.R. Tolkien’s death at age 81.

I should have mentioned that the year was 1973.

Frances wrote: "You seem to move seamlessly from one event to another, Manny. Thank you!

I wanted to point out that today, September 2, is the anniversary of J.R.R. Tolkien’s death at age 81."

Thank you for that Frances. We should be aware of it, at least while we are reading his great work.

Manny, did your copy include a map? I always find those helpful in fantasy books if they have one. Although that doesn't help much if a place is referenced in Dwarvish or Elvish.

Frances wrote: "You seem to move seamlessly from one event to another, Manny. Thank you!

I wanted to point out that today, September 2, is the anniversary of J.R.R. Tolkien’s death at age 81."

Thank you, Frances!

Michelle wrote: "Manny, did your copy include a map? I always find those helpful in fantasy books if they have one. Although that doesn't help much if a place is referenced in Dwarvish or Elvish."

Yes, I used a map but it's pretty tiny. Even with a magnifying glass I had trouble. I used the online interactive map that Kerstin linked at the beginning of the read. But they only have one name and like I said there are multiple names for some of the places.

Thank you for the summary, Manny. I must admit that I glossed over the various place names as I was reading, and instead focused on the development of the plot and the extraordinary setting of the mines. As the pressure builds, we learn more about the characters and their relationships.

Some thoughts on these two chapters.

1. Why depart for the quest at the end of December? It’s not exactly clear. From a practicality perspective, it makes no sense. They are marching right into the harsh winter. Wouldn’t it have been smarter to start in the spring? After all they waited two months and then felt the urgency to go at the end of December. And they do hike right into a winter blizzard.

One can’t help feel that the end of December has a special meaning. It could be the start of the new year. But I think if that was it Tolkien would have just said they started at the beginning of January. End of December implies Christmas, but Tolkien could not have mentioned Christmas because the events of Middle Earth all predate Christ. But he could mark the end of December to suggest Christmas, or perhaps he wishes to allude to the Winter Solstice. Given the Ring is destroyed on a particular day in the Catholic calendar (I won’t spoil it here) I think he’s trying to allude to Christmas.

2. I was a little dismayed that Tolkien used a long held trope of the evil wolves, that is, the Wargs. Wolves have been characterized as satanic animals for as long as man has been alive. They have been routinely killed off in all civilizations. I love wolves. Yes, they kill like all carnivores, but wolves killing humans is quite rare. This is not meant as a criticism of the book but if Sam can have compassion for Bill the donkey, I can have compassion for wolves. My favorite St. Francis of Assisi story is that of his interactions with the Wolf of Gubbio. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_of...

3. Throughout the chapters, we increasing get the characterization of Boromir as being an outsider. Is he alienated, or does he alienate himself? There are two ways to look at Boromir. You can look at him as someone who has a completely different life background, and so is not psychologically in synch with the others. Or you can look at him as someone who is just not accepted by the clique he must work with. I think Tolkien intends to portray it as the former, but given I’ve been an outsider to a clique more than once I have moments of identifying with Boromir.

4. Why is there elvish writing on the entrance to Moria, a once held kingdom of the Dwarves? I’m not sure I get that. And is it magic that opens the West gate with the incantation of a word or some mechanical audio system as we would conceptualize it in our modern world? And if it’s magic, where is the power of this magic coming from? Is it like a saint who performs a miracle? A saint gets his ability to perform a miracle from God. Does Gandalf get his power from God? No, I am not a good fantasy reader! This “open sesame” cliché is the first time I thought Tolkien fall flat in his creativity. Unlike everything else to this point, this lacked originality. And he built up suspense with it by having Gandalf not remember the word and find it in the writing on the wall. This is on the order of a B or even C level movie.

5. Journeying through the Mines of Moria is symbolic of going into the underworld in say Homer’s or Virgil’s epics. I believe Tolkien had a similar with Biblo in The Hobbit, the predecessor novel. This links the novel to Classical literature, and there is a sort of rebirth aspect when the characters finally come out from underground.

6. I think the scenes in the underground are quite horrific. To be in the dark in a labyrinth of tunnels for days as you try to make your way out and avoid terrifying chasms touches on some natural phobias. Have you ever been inside a dark tunnel like that? I’m an engineer in my regular life, and a few years ago I had a project working a=with a mining company. I spent a few days in the mines, not continuous. We went back to the hotel at the end of the day, but I was underground in a maze of tunnels for a good eight hours for a few days. It certainly made me anxious. I guess the people who routinely worked there were used to it. I thought it was kind of eerie, and was dreadfully paranoid of getting separated and lost. We brought lots of lighting. We weren’t going just by the tip of Gandalf’s staff. My point is that the experience of being in a mine is actually more frightening than I think the novel portrays.

7. I loved Gimli’s song of the Dwarf glory days. It really shows Tolkien’s skill as a poet or song writer. Here is what I think is the best stanza.

There hammer on the anvil smote,
There chisel clove, and graver wrote;
There forged was blade, and bound was hilt;
The delver mined, the mason built.
There beryl, pearl, and opal pale,
And metal wrought like fishes’ mail,
Buckler and corslet, axe and sword,
And shining spears were laid in hoard.

Note the alliteration and what I think are called labial consonants, consonants that require both lips to articulate, the “p’s” and “b’s”. All the consonants echo in different lines. I also loved the last stanza:

The world is grey, the mountains old,
The forge’s fire is ashen-cold;
No harp is wrung, no hammer falls:
The darkness dwells in Durin’s halls;
The shadow lies upon his tomb
In Moria, in Khazad-dûm.
But still the sunken stars appear
In dark and windless Mirrormere;
There lies his crown in water deep,
Till Durin wakes again from sleep.

Superb!

Their farewells had been said in the great hall by the fire, and they were only waiting now for Gandalf, who had not yet come out of the house. A gleam of firelight came from the open doors, and soft lights were glowing in many windows. Bilbo huddled in a cloak stood silent on the doorstep beside Frodo. Aragorn sat with his head bowed to his knees; only Elrond knew fully what this hour meant to him. The others could be seen as grey shapes in the darkness.

The evil coming from Mordor and its instrument, the Ring, has brought those to Rivendell who would work out a combined strategy to counter the yoke that is coming their way. Even though Frodo and company had been on this journey for many months now, it is now that the quest starts in earnest. The threat is too big for any Lone Ranger to save the day. This has to be done in an orchestrated way.
Now the moment of departure is here. Nobody speaks. Everyone knows this is a most solemn occasion. Waiting for Gandalf, there is almost a nervous energy present, the moment between the old life with its comfortable gleaming firelight and warmth behind the glowing windows, and the exposed winter harshness with all its seen and unseen dangers into which the group is departing.
In this scene, one would think the burden of this quest would lie most heavily on Frodo, but he stands silently beside Bilbo. He may be the ring bearer, but he needs the leadership and protection of Gandalf and Aragorn and the rest to lead the way to parts truly unknown for a hobbit. The person most burdened is Aragorn. He sits “with his head bowed to his knees.” We get a glimpse that there are things in the making not yet revealed, things that are only known to leaders.

Hi all, I haven't been able to read along in parallel but I'm hoping to jump in and catch up in the fall. But I have read it before and I saw Manny's remark and wanted to chime in...


Why depart for the quest at the end of December?

We ought not wait for better days and we ought not set out before it's time. It is in the darkest days that we must set off on our adventures. The days we most won't want to.

Manny wrote: "Why depart for the quest at the end of December? It’s not exactly clear. From a practicality perspective, it makes no sense. They are marching right into the harsh winter. Wouldn’t it have been smarter to start in the spring? After all they waited two months and then felt the urgency to go at the end of December."

All very good questions!
The company took little gear of war, for their hope was in secrecy not in battle. The entire quest is a clandestine operation. It can only work if secrecy is maintained and the element of surprise is only revealed at the right moment when the enemy is impotent to do something about it.

Manny wrote: "One can’t help feel that the end of December has a special meaning. It could be the start of the new year. But I think if that was it Tolkien would have just said they started at the beginning of January."

In the old calendar the first of January is the Circumcision of the Lord, so that would not have worked. (Just as an aside, as Anthony Esolen explains it, this is when Sir Gawain starts his quest in "The Green Knight", something we completely missed when we read it a few years ago - I almost want to revisit it :-) )

At the end of December we have the following feast days:
26 - St Stephen
27 - St John the Apostle and Evangelist
28 - The Holy Innocents
29 - St Thomas Becket
31 - St Sylvester I, pope

I would have to think more in how any of them specifically fit into our narrative.

I think the answer lies more in the symbolism that December presents. In December we have the longest night from the 21st to the 22nd. Every night after that is shorter, and the days become longer. The quest begins when the light begins to grow.

Manny wrote: " I was a little dismayed that Tolkien used a long held trope of the evil wolves, that is, the Wargs. Wolves have been characterized as satanic animals for as long as man has been alive. They have been routinely killed off in all civilizations. I love wolves. Yes, they kill like all carnivores, but wolves killing humans is quite rare. This is not meant as a criticism of the book but if Sam can have compassion for Bill the donkey, I can have compassion for wolves."

Well, we made wolves into man's best friend, dogs :-)

I don't romanticize wolves. They are majestic animals, but also fierce predators and very intelligent. Man has a primal fear of wolves, a visceral reaction similar to snakes and spiders. We have not always lived so estranged from the natural world as we are today where we no longer have a true understanding how nature works. Go to Eastern Europe or Russia where wolves have always been present. Folks there have no love of wolves. We have always been in direct competition with wolves, as they prey on (domesticated) animals we need for our survival and they are powerful enough to make us their prey. It may not usually be a person in their prime, but small children and the infirm are definitely at risk. This primal fear is what is reflected in so many traditional fairy tales where it is lost in the past when they were first told.

If one sleeps under the stars in wolf country, better make a fire, for they will get too close for comfort. This is the situation Frodo and company are in. They are in a frozen wilderness and the wolves are after them. What Tolkien does here is confront our small band of protagonists with one of their inmost, primal fears. The fear of death by a predator.

Casey wrote: "Why depart for the quest at the end of December?

We ought not wait for better days and we ought not set out before it's time. It is in the darkest days that we must set off on our adventures. The days we most won't want to.."

Yes, I did notice that quote, and amazingly it comes to fulfillment. So Tolkien put those words in Elrond's mouth and then wrote the scene with the blizzard which kind of proved Elrond's advice wrong. So what did Tolkien mean by it all? Was he trying to prove Elrond wrong? Did he want to emphasize miscalculations?

Frankly I'm not exactly sure. Any good novelist is going to put obstacles to hinder a journey. Given Tolkien's predilection to coordinate dates (Bilbo leaves the Shire on his birthday, Frodo sets off from the Shire on his birthday, the Ring is destroyed on a specific feast day I won't mention), I can't help but think that Tolkien has them depart on Christmas Day. Now Tolkien can't mention it is Christmas Day. As I said, Christ wasn't born yet in the timeline. But he comes as close as possible, and then in his plotting may have realized this is a good point to throw in a blizzard.

Kerstin wrote: "Man has a primal fear of wolves, a visceral reaction similar to snakes and spiders. We have not always lived so estranged from the natural world as we are today where we no longer have a true understanding how nature works. Go to Eastern Europe or Russia where wolves have always been present. Folks there have no love of wolves. ."

Yes, this is true. You know bears are actually much more dangerous than wolves and yet we don't have this visceral fear of bears. We make Teddy Bears out of them! :)

Kerstin wrote: "I think the answer lies more in the symbolism that December presents. In December we have the longest night from the 21st to the 22nd. Every night after that is shorter, and the days become longer. The quest begins when the light begins to grow."

Yes, I did mention that. But that too is connected with Christ's birth.

Kerstin wrote: "All very good questions!
The company took little gear of war, for their hope was in secrecy not in battle. The entire quest is a clandestine operation. It can only work if secrecy is maintained and the element of surprise is only revealed at the right moment when the enemy is impotent to do something about it.."

Yes it might be a surprise to the Enemy, but was it? The birds circling overhead see them. The Wargs (evil wolves) find them. In a way this was another incorrect assumption by Elrond. It seems that in that chapter "The Ring Goes South" Tolkien goes out of his way to prove Elrond miscalculated. I don't know the significance of that.

Manny wrote: "You know bears are actually much more dangerous than wolves and yet we don't have this visceral fear of bears. We make Teddy Bears out of them! :) "

The hunting tactics are different between the two predators. Bears are mostly scavengers and opportunistic with the exception of the Polar Bear.

Wolves hunt in packs. They stalk their prey and during the hunt the wolve(s) you see are not the ones attacking, they will be out of your field of vision. This is why they are so effective.

I find it interesting that in the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel we say, "...cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl the world seeking the ruin of souls."
Just like a highly effective predator, the enemy is on the hunt for souls. This brings us back to what you mentioned earlier, the wolf being a symbol of evil.

Manny wrote: "Yes it might be a surprise to the Enemy, but was it? The birds circling overhead see them. The Wargs (evil wolves) find them. In a way this was another incorrect assumption by Elrond. It seems that in that chapter "The Ring Goes South" Tolkien goes out of his way to prove Elrond miscalculated. I don't know the significance of that."

I am not sure I follow here. What has Elrond gotten wrong? I re-read the chapter and nothing jumped out at me.
We already know that the Enemy has spies out. They know they are in a cat and mouse game, so to speak. They avoid the regular road south, travel by night and sleep by day. They travel over more difficult terrain, and that is a strategy in itself. For even if detected, it is harder to get to them. Going over the mountain in winter is a calculated risk/gamble in any case. So when they have to turn around it is more of a delay than a defeat.

Manny wrote: "3. Throughout the chapters, we increasing get the characterization of Boromir as being an outsider. Is he alienated, or does he alienate himself?"

At Rivendell we have folks gathering from all over the realm. Some know each other and others don't. They probably knew more of Boromir than actually having met him. His initial task to find answers to the recurring dreams he and his brother Faramir had is completed by the council. Now he finds himself involved in a much bigger situation, one not of his making. He is the only one in the room whose eyes gleam when the Ring is revealed at the council. Then he leads into a lengthy discussion of how the Ring could actually serve them. In and of itself that's logical enough. All of his points, however, are dismissed. The others already knew of the power of the Ring, but it is all new to Boromir. I think what separates him from the others is that the Ring already exerted power over him similar to a drug that makes you an addict the first time you take it.

Kerstin wrote: "Manny wrote: "Yes it might be a surprise to the Enemy, but was it? The birds circling overhead see them. The Wargs (evil wolves) find them. In a way this was another incorrect assumption by Elrond...."

As I looked back, you're right. Elrond doesn't really indicate the Enemy will not notice them if they leave during winter. The decision to leave at the end of December seems puzzling. It was imprudent to start the quest with the onset of winter. They had waited two months at Rivendell before Elrond announces it is time to go. Why then December? And to highlight the imprudence, Tolkien provides a blizzard almost immediately that makes their plan impossible.

So let me ask everyone. Why do you think Tolkien had Elrond decide to initiate the journey at the end of December?

I honestly didn't attach any significance to it, unless I had missed something in the text.

I am super late, and I read all your comments but I haven't really figured out if there is any significance in the Fellowship setting out in December... maybe it was for Tolkien a natural thing to make time pass, as he did with Frodo setting out a number of years after Bilbo left.

I wanted to comment on the "evil wolves" comment that Manny made; I don't think Tolkien viewed wolves as evil. They are predators, maybe the biggest predators in nature and they are terrifying, but what I think Tolkien tried to show how all good things in nature can be corrupted by evil, because we cannot deny that wolves are very very intelligent animals.

What I noticed in these chapters and throughout the whole book is the theme of travelling. It almost seems like the Fellowship is going on a sort of pilgrimage. Is there any significance to this in relation to the Bible? The Jews journeyed for quite a while and St. Paul went on long journeys of his own too. Maybe Tolkien was inspired by such stories. I know he himself was fond of walking through nature.

On the point of elvish writing in Moria, that also requires some extra reading of the Silmarillion. It unfortunately happens a lot for those of us who want to delve deep into the world of Middle Earth. The Dwarves of Moria and the Elves of the area far west, which is now sunken, were friendly with each other, but the Dwarves guarded their language very carefully and did not teach it to the Elves. The gate to Moria was made for and used by the Elves to pass into the kingdom, so that's that mystery explained!

Lastly I want to share a sung version of The Song of Durin. Like you, Manny, I also love this song/poem, it's one of my favourites by Tolkien. This sung version is just beautiful. Enjoy! https://youtu.be/uxfoa23skHg?si=ot0WW...

Ellie wrote: "What I noticed in these chapters and throughout the whole book is the theme of travelling. It almost seems like the Fellowship is going on a sort of pilgrimage. Is there any significance to this in relation to the Bible? The Jews journeyed for quite a while and St. Paul went on long journeys of his own too. Maybe Tolkien was inspired by such stories. I know he himself was fond of walking through nature."

The journey and quest is the central form of the narrative, and they both require traveling. I never thought about the journey and quest being used in the Bible. When I thought about Tolkien's antecedents, I was thinking I was thinking along Classical and Medieval examples: The Odyssey, The Aeneid, the quest for the Holy Grail. The first half of the Aeneid might be a good fit. Or you might see the LotR quest as an inverse of the quest for the Holy Grail. The Fellowship are on a quest to get rid of an evil object while the Knights of the Round Table are on a quest to find a holy object.

I really like your example of the Israelites being lost in the desert on a quest to get to the holy land. St. Paul's travels are interesting but I don't see it so much as a specific quest. Maybe it can, I'm not sure. There is also the journey of Abraham, and Jacob journeys too. Perhaps Tolkien had these on his mind as well. I don't see why not.

Ellie wrote: "Lastly I want to share a sung version of The Song of Durin. Like you, Manny, I also love this song/poem, it's one of my favourites by Tolkien. This sung version is just beautiful. Enjoy! https://youtu.be/uxfoa23skHg?si=ot0WW..."

That is very nice, thank you. There is also a video of Tolkien himself reading The Song of Durin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6Uab...

He's a better writer than a singer...lol.

Manny wrote: " Why do you think Tolkien had Elrond decide to initiate the journey at the end of December? "

Warfare, whether in the past or now, is mostly a summer affair for obvious reasons. My husband mentioned George Washington's crossing of the Delaware at Christmas and how extraordinary this strategy was.

Manny wrote: "I think the scenes in the underground are quite horrific. To be in the dark in a labyrinth of tunnels for days as you try to make your way out and avoid terrifying chasms touches on some natural phobias. "

It was hard to read. I'm not a fan of all this underground fantasy stuff. George MacDonald used it quite a bit in his novels as well. The underground, tunnels and mines are not a places where humans are supposed to be. They are completely alien to human flourishing.

Kerstin wrote: "Manny wrote: " Why do you think Tolkien had Elrond decide to initiate the journey at the end of December? "

Warfare, whether in the past or now, is mostly a summer affair for obvious reasons. My h..."

Yes, and that's what I was alluding to with my comments. I was thinking along the lines of a military mission. Now there are two ways that the military might approach a mission. D-Day in WWII was selected for early June, and I think the inital day was the 3rd but because of expected bad weather they moved it to the 4th just before launch. So one appraoch is to pick the optimum day that favors your mission. The second approach is the opposite, that is surprise the enemy by picking a bad weather day and being better prepared you will have an advantage while you surprise the enemy. An example of that is Hannibal's first battle with the Romans after he marched over the Alps with his elephants. This would be the Battle of Trebia, where Hannibal surprised the Romans in mid to late December on a flooded region of norhtern Italy. They didn't expect it in winter and they didn't expect it in a flooded region. The surprise led to the overwhelming victory for Hannibal.

Now Tolkien could have used either approach, and it would have made sense. Tolkien specifically has Elrond pick the second approach, that is surprise the enemy by launching the mission when least expected. Keep in mind, Tolkien specifially highlights the surprise approach by going at the end of December. But Tolkien within the very same chapter - which could not be a coincidence - has the fellowship crash against a blizzard, which in effect repudiates Elrond's decision to go in winter. It's almost as if Elrond is proven wrong immediate.

Now what to make of it? I don't really know, but it does seem that it was a conscious narrative choice.

Manny wrote: " When I thought about Tolkien's antecedents, I was thinking I was thinking along Classical and Medieval examples: The Odyssey, The Aeneid, the quest for the Holy Grail. The first half of the Aeneid might be a good fit."

At a second glance, you might be right. Tolkien was a professor of literature, after all, and I'm sure he was familiar with all the classical works.

I do like the reference to the quest for the Holy Grail and to the Odyssey; what immediately came to mind, though, was Tolkien's translation of Beowulf. While the Odyssey and the stories of the Knights of the Round Table do have some elements of quest that are present in the Lord of the Rings, I can't help but see the connection between Beowulf and Tolkien's story. I read Beowulf a while ago, but isn't the general story pretty similar? Beowulf, somewhat of an archetypal hero, is on a quest to defeat evil in the form of a dragon.

Manny wrote: "Now what to make of it? I don't really know, but it does seem that it was a conscious narrative choice."

I think it may have been a practical narrative choice. It was said, "It is in the darkest days that we must set off on our adventures.". Perhaps, to be consistent with the setting of the story, he wanted the Fellowship to travel in winter to take advantage of the long nights. Or, he already thought of the journey through Moria and needed to get the characters there, haha!

I did just now read this article that explains the dates from the Catholic point of view, but I am not sure it goes that deep. While yes, I am aware of Tolkien being very religious, I am not convinced that he wanted to put so much Catholic symbolism into his book. It is a Catholic book, but it's not a religious allegory, as he himself has stated.

https://voyagecomics.com/2020/11/27/w...