Classics and the Western Canon discussion

The London party breaks up — Henrietta is waiting for the promised invitation from Lady Pensil, and Ralph and Isabel return to Gardencourt where Mr Touchett has taken a turn for the worse. Isabel meets the charming Madame Merle there, and Ralph asks his father to redo his will and leave half of Ralph’s inheritance to Isabel “to put a little wind in her sails.” Madame Merle leaves Gardencourt, and Henrietta and Mr Bantling go to Paris when the invitation from Lady Pensil never arrives. After Mr Touchett’s death, Ralph leaves England, travelling south for his health. Madame Merle visits Mrs Touchett and learns from her of Mr Touchett’s bequest to Isabel. Isabel adjusts to the idea of being suddenly rich. She and Mrs Touchett agree to travel together to the Continent, and they visit Paris where Isabel encounters a childhood friend Ned Rosier as well as Henrietta who thinks him “worse than poor Ralph Touchett.”

Mr Touchett and Ralph discuss Ralph’s future, and Ralph requests to split his inheritance with Isabel unbeknownst to her. Is Ralph in love with Isabel? What do you think of the arguments Mr Touchett makes against the idea?

Are you as charmed by Madame Merle as Isabel seems to be? Would you give her a standing invitation to visit as so many other people in the novel do?

I have another cultural question for the group : what is the meaning of the title Madame Merle? Her name in French means "Mrs Blackbird", why is she not called "Mrs Merle"? And she says to Isabel she isn't married, and I didn't get the impression she's a widow. And she's not French, despite Isabel's first impression. So why the "Madame"?

La_mariane wrote: "I have another cultural question for the group : what is the meaning of the title Madame Merle? Her name in French means "Mrs Blackbird", why is she not called "Mrs Merle"? And she says to Isabel s..."

Like Madame Merle herself, the author is a little coy in how he presents her marital status, but I think Isabel and Ralph’s interchange in Chapter 18 indicates that she is a widow.

Isabel looked at her cousin a moment. “You don’t like her.”
“On the contrary, I was once in love with her.”
And she didn’t care for you, and that’s why you don’t like her.”
“How can we have discussed such things? Monsieur Merle was then living.”
“Is he dead now?”
“So she says.”
“Don’t you believe her?”
“Yes, because the statement agrees with the probabilities. The husband of Madame Merle would be likely to pass away.”

We’ll learn later on that Monsieur Merle was Swiss. The ambiguities here may support Mrs Touchett’s saying of Madame Merle: “She’s too fond of mystery.”

A note in the Oxford World’s Classics edition indicates that in addition to meaning “blackbird”, “idiomatically, ‘un fin merle’ means a deep or cunning old bird.”

Susan wrote: "La_mariane wrote: "I have another cultural question for the group : what is the meaning of the title Madame Merle? Her name in French means "Mrs Blackbird", why is she not called "Mrs Merle"? And s..."

Thanks, I had somehow forgotten this passage. That's so ambiguous : maybe she's a widow, or maybe she just says she is ...
And this : The husband of Madame Merle would be likely to pass away.! That nearly makes her sound like she murdered him (or hastened his death!). Maybe that's one of the reasons Mrs Touchett likes her : they both could have done withouth their respective husband.

Susan wrote: "A note in the Oxford World’s Classics edition indicates that in addition to meaning “blackbird”, “idiomatically, ‘un fin merle’ means a deep or cunning old bird.”"

Thanks, I'm reading a translation and my edition only has notes from the translator, not explicative one (which would be really useful, though).

I've just read the 20th chapter (so skip this comment if you haven't because it's spoiler-y) : so interesting! We see another face of Madame Merle. She's far from perfect, at last (maybe because we step away from Isabel's view of her from a time). And I must say I like her better for it, some of her inner thoughts are truly funny :

“I know what you’re going to say—he was a very good man. But I know it better than any one, because I gave him more chance to show it. In that I think I was a good wife.” Mrs. Touchett added that at the end her husband apparently recognised this fact. “He has treated me most liberally,” she said; “I won’t say more liberally than I expected, because I didn’t expect. You know that as a general thing I don’t expect. But he chose, I presume, to recognise the fact that though I lived much abroad and mingled—you may say freely—in foreign life, I never exhibited the smallest preference for any one else.”

“For any one but yourself,” Madame Merle mentally observed; but the reflexion was perfectly inaudible.

“I never sacrificed my husband to another,” Mrs. Touchett continued with her stout curtness.

“Oh no,” thought Madame Merle; “you never did anything for another!”

And the news about Isabel getting so much money! I'm getting "lottery winner" vibes ... I'm afraid she's going to lose it all, or drive her life off the rails... much like Mr Touchett was afraid of, in his last conversation with his son.

Susan wrote: "Is Ralph in love with Isabel? ."

I think he is, but he loves her in a strangely distant, almost abstract way. The dialogue between Ralph and his father is like listening to two old men contemplating their legacies, and Mr. Touchett seems to acknowledge the fact that Ralph has no future. He's such a sweet, pathetic little guy. It's hard not to like and pity him at the same time.
Somehow it is fitting that he demonstrates his "love" by giving away half of his material substance, which really doesn't mean that much to him. It's more puzzling to me that Mr. Touchett allows it.

Susanna wrote: "I'm assuming Ralph has tuberculosis, what used to be called consumption. TB killed many young adults. It's so great that it is now curable and mostly extinguished."

You might find it interesting to google "tuberculosis current status." (I just did -- saw no adequate one sentence summary to share.)

I am of course reminded of our reading here of Thomas Mann's The Magic Mountain. Another one of those books one wishes for the time to read again -- for its sharp look at human feelings and reactions under particular kinds of stress.

My father lost a brother to TB in the 1940's. Today I live near a mountain complex called Natirar that once provided sanatorium facilities for tuberculous and cancer patients (~1908-1983).

La_mariane wrote: "I've just read the 20th chapter (so skip this comment if you haven't because it's spoiler-y) : so interesting! We see another face of Madame Merle. She's far from perfect, at last (maybe because we step away from Isabel's view of her from a time). And I must say I like her better for it, some of her inner thoughts are truly funny :
.."

I agree Madame Merle’s private thoughts are funny and acute. She also had some sharp comments to Isabel earlier about the Touchetts, including Ralph and his illness. To me, it seems a bit hypocritical to accept people’s hospitality for weeks on end and critique them like that in their own house. I wonder if jealousy plays a role in sparking her comments about the Touchetts? We’re not told anything about her finances, at least so far, but I’m guessing she is less well off than they are.

Thomas wrote: Is Ralph in love with Isabel? " I think he is, but he loves her in a strangely distant, almost abstract way. The dialogue between Ralph and his father is like listening to two old men contemplating their legacies, and Mr. Touchett seems to acknowledge the fact that Ralph has no future. He's such a sweet, pathetic little guy. It's hard not to like and pity him at the same time.
Somehow it is fitting that he demonstrates his "love" by giving away half of his material substance, which really doesn't mean that much to him. It's more puzzling to me that Mr. Touchett allows it. ."

Ralph certainly seems to understand Isabel and how she will react to getting the legacy, i.e., by first sending money to her sisters. Perhaps another motivating factor for the gift besides love is a wish to live vicariously through her adventures/life.

It’s a good question why Mr Touchett agrees. Maybe part of his reasoning is that if he leaves it to Ralph, Ralph would give it to her anyway once he inherits. It’s interesting how the author gives us the relative value of their relationship with Isabel in Mr Touchett’s eyes (5,000 pounds) and in Ralph’s eyes (60,000 pounds here).

Susanna wrote: "I'm assuming Ralph has tuberculosis, what used to be called consumption. TB killed many young adults.”

Yes, James identifies Ralph’s illness as a pulmonary condition and implies it is consumption here: “One of his lungs began to heal, the other promised to follow its example, and he was assured he might outweather a dozen winters if he would betake himself to those climates in which consumptives chiefly congregate.” (Chapter 5)

While good treatments do exist now and I assume Ralph would have been cured and able to live an active life, the World Health Organization states that TB is still a major health threat throughout much of the world, with 10 million new cases every year and 1.5 million deaths annually. (Info is from their website).

I get the feeling Ralph eschews marriage because he thinks he doesn't have long to live.

“The autumn twilight gathered in, and from her place Isabel could see the rain, which had now begun in earnest, washing the cold-looking lawn and the wind shaking the great trees.
At last, when the music had ceased, her companion got up and, coming nearer with a smile, before Isabel had time to thank her again, said: I'm very glad you've come back; I've heard a great deal about you.'
Isabel thought her a very attractive person, but nevertheless spoke with a certain abruptness in reply to this speech. 'From whom have you heard about me?'
The stranger hesitated a single moment and then, 'From your uncle, she answered. T've been here three days, and the first day he let me come and pay him a visit in his room. Then he talked constantly of you.'

When I read this passage in Chapter 18, my first thought was that Madame Merle was lying or at a minimum telling a partial truth, because 1) it doesn’t sound like Mr Touchett to talk constantly of Isabel to Madame Merle, and 2) wouldn’t Mrs Touchett have mentioned Isabel to her in either a letter, her invitation to her to come to Gardencourt, or once she arrived there? I’m still pondering. Any thoughts?

Susan wrote: "“The autumn twilight gathered in, and from her place Isabel could see the rain, which had now begun in earnest, washing the cold-looking lawn and the wind shaking the great trees.
At last, when the..."

Good catch. It didn't seem weird at the time to me, but, now that I am a little farther in the book (just finished chapter 29), I take things Madame Merle says with a grain of salt. I don't think she lies exactly, it's more like she has a way of dropping hints and bending the truth, or coloring things to her advantage.

Also, Mr Touchett is very ill when this conversation happens : maybe they spoke for 3 minutes, and he spent one of them speaking about Isabel.

Lily wrote: " I am of course reminded of our reading here of Thomas Mann's The Magic Mountain. Another one of those books one wishes for the time to read again -- for its sharp look at human feelings and reactions under particular kinds of stress.

My father lost a brother to TB in the 1940's. Today I live near a mountain complex called Natirar that once provided sanatorium facilities for tuberculous and cancer patients (~1908-1983)..."

Thank you for reminding me of the toll taken by TB in the real world. I’m sorry about the loss of your uncle.

Roger wrote: "I get the feeling Ralph eschews marriage because he thinks he doesn't have long to live."

Yes, and he gives another reason, too:

Ralph Touchett: ”I haven't many convictions; but I have three or four that I hold strongly. One is that people, on the whole, had better not marry their cousins. Another is that people in an advanced stage of pulmonary disorder had better not marry at all.”. Chapter 18

La_mariane wrote: "It didn't seem weird at the time to me, but, now that I am a little farther in the book (just finished chapter 29), I take things Madame Merle says with a grain of salt. I don't think she lies exactly, it's more like she has a way of dropping hints and bending the truth, or coloring things to her advantage.”

I think it was Mrs Touchett that says Madame Merle loves mystery too much. (Of course, compared to the super-direct spoken Mrs Touchett, anyone with an ounce of tact might seem mysterious to her ;). As you say, Madame Merle’s character will continue to unfold with the story.

Susan wrote: "(Of course, compared to the super-direct spoken Mrs Touchett, anyone with an ounce of tact might seem mysterious to her ;) ..."

Or leaves one to wonder what she conceals with that directness ... and movement from country to country, continent to continent?

Susan wrote: "Roger wrote: "I get the feeling Ralph eschews marriage because he thinks he doesn't have long to live."

Yes, and he gives another reason, too:

Ralph Touchett: .....One is that people, on the whole, had better not marry their cousins...."

I realize that I don't know the historic timing as to when the genetic consequences of cousins marrying became "common knowledge."

Consanguineous Marriage https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles...

I found the above interesting, but not really directly relevant. (One of the "side benefits" of reading historic books has been learning little tidbits about "when humankind has learned." I pursued a bit a trail of other related sites. Interesting, but for JoaL, to me at least, simply suggesting some forward thinking extrapolation, not necessarily solid, on Ralph's part. To be expected in a country that honors bloodlines? Or a way for Ralph to create a protective barrier behind which to have a relationship with his cousin? Or not relevant to the story?)

On investigation, I was surprised to learn that marriage of first cousins is legal in 18 states in the US, including New York, where Isabel and Ralph come from. It is illegal in 25, and in the remaining 7 it is restricted (typically the couple must be infertile).

Lily wrote: ".. I realize that I don't know the historic timing as to when the genetic consequences of cousins marrying became "common knowledge."

Here’s the footnote on the issue from the Oxford World Classics edition: “…in many European countries, cousin marriage was illegal. It was allowed in England (Queen Victoria married her first cousin, after all), but there were anxious debates about it. Many felt that the practice caused inbreeding and degeneration of the race. In 1870 there had been parliamentary debates over the matter, since there was an attempt to include a question on the 1871 Census of population to try to gather the extent of the practice in England. This matter was given some theoretical framework by the researches of Charles Darwin, who had himself married his first cousin. The practice became far less widespread in the late Victorian period.”

Lily wrote: "Susan wrote: "(Of course, compared to the super-direct spoken Mrs Touchett, anyone with an ounce of tact might seem mysterious to her ;) ..."

Or leaves one to wonder what she conceals with that di..."

My impression is that Mrs Touchett is not consciously concealing anything. She seems to be honest according to her own perceptions (I.e., she believes she was a good wife to Mr Touchett, a belief not necessarily shared by other observers), and she seems to speak her mind without filtering her thoughts.

Well, life has gotten in the way and I have just finished up week #4's section.
Ralph: I am also of the mind that Ralph feels he does not have a very long life ahead of him which is the reason behind many of his actions such as eschewing marriage and the desire to give away some of his inheritance. Couple that with his feelings about first cousins marrying, and he can set aside his developing feelings for Isabel. I also think he doesn't know what it is like to not have money, manage money or the lifestyle that money affords, so he is more casual about it.

Madame Merle: there is more to discover about her, I am sure. It was a little disconcerting how she felt she may be owed something from Mr. Touchett. I'm somewhat puzzled over that. She was only a guest, not a relation or even a close friend it seems. And I would give very very few people a standing invitation to visit and so no on that question.

I was happy to see that Mrs. Touchett came out of her chambers to "nurse" her husband. I started to wonder if she really didn't care about him at all except as a source of money so she could live how she pleased.

I found Henrietta's conversation with Isabel regarding her sudden inheritance very interesting and insightful especially the following:
The peril for you is that you live too much in the world of your own dreams-you are not enough in contact with reality-with the toiling, surviving, suffering, I may even say sinning, world that surrounds you. You are too fastidious; you have too many graceful illusions. Your newly acquired thousands will shut you up more and more to the society of a few selfish and heartless people, who will be interested in keeping up those illusions.
...you think that you can lead a romantic life, that you can live by pleasing yourself and pleasing others.

And What is going on between Henrietta and Mr. Bantling? Is it because he supports many of her causes that she finds him an attractive companion? Or his money?

Chris wrote: “It was a little disconcerting how she felt she may be owed something from Mr. Touchett. I'm somewhat puzzled over that. She was only a guest, not a relation or even a close friend it seems.”

Good point! Here’s what James said about Madame Merle’s feelings about Mr Touchett’s bequests: “ ‘The idea of a distribution of property—she would almost have said of spoils—just now pressed upon her senses and irritated her with a sense of exclusion. I am far from wishing to picture her as one of the hungry mouths or envious hearts of the general herd, but we have already learned of her having desires that had never been satisfied. (Chapter 20)

So, if I read this right, James tells us Madame Merle’s irritated sense of exclusion isn’t because she’s greedy or envious in a general way, but because she has unsatisfied desires. So what is it she desires? A share of the wealth she sees all around her? She already takes advantage of that wealth with her constant visits, but of course that’s different from being wealthy in her own right. Do folks have any other thoughts?

Added: I found the earlier conversation with Isabel where Madame Merle talks about her unsatisfied ambitions (Chapter 9), but in very general terms:
“'I'm very ambitious!' she at last replied.
'And your ambitions have not been satisfied? They must have been great.'
'They were great. I should make myself ridiculous by talking of them.'
Isabel wondered what they could have been—whether Madame Merle had aspired to wear a crown. 'I don't know what your idea of success may be, but you seem to me to have been successful. To me indeed you're a vivid image of success.
Madame Merle tossed away the music with a smile. 'What's your idea of success?'
'You evidently think it must be a very tame one. It's to see some dream of one's youth come true.'
'Ah, Madame Merle exclaimed, 'that I've never seen! But my dreams were so great—so preposterous. Heaven forgive me, I'm dreaming now!'”

So the question of what Madame Merle’s dreams/desires might be is still open, as far as I can tell.

Chris wrote: "What is going on between Henrietta and Mr. Bantling? Is it because he supports many of her causes that she finds him an attractive companion? Or his money?”

I think the initial attraction for Henrietta was that Mr Bantling would give her the inside picture of English life for her journalistic assignments. And according to Ralph, Mr Bantling 'thinks her a brilliant woman.’. They certainly seem an unlikely pair, especially given Henrietta’s strictures on Englishmen.