Classics and the Western Canon discussion

We left Isabel, back in Florence after a year of travel, waiting for a visitor. The visitor turns out to be Caspar Goodwood, who has traveled from America to see her. Isabel tells him: 'I can't tell you how I hoped you wouldn't come!'. She wrote to tell him that she is engaged to Mr Osmond. ’I've told no one but yourself and one other person—an old friend of Mr Osmond's.'. Mr Goodwood has questions about Isabel’s decision to marry, but accepts her decision under protest. Isabel informs Mrs Touchett of her engagement and asks her to inform Ralph. Neither her aunt or cousin approve, but their conversations with Isabel do not change her decision.

Three years later, Edward Rosier visits Madame Merle at her apartment in Rome. He is in love with Pansy Osmond and wants Madame Merle’s advice/assistance in his suit to her father. She demurs but says she will look into it. She suggests his fortune is not large enough for Mr Osmond’s consent, but advises him not to consult his old friend, Mrs Osmond, as her involvement would not be helpful to his cause. When Mr Rosier visits the Osmonds to see Pansy, Mr Osmond signals his disapproval, while Isabel tells Mr Rosier she can’t help him in his suit.

—Are there any happy marriages in this book so far?

—Is Mr Rosier’s income the only reason Mr Osmond doesn’t approve of his suit?

—What questions do you have at this point in the story?

The thing that most surprised me was the time lapse : "Portrait of a Lady" is such a detailed book, we are informed of nearly every thoughts of the characters, we see Isabel's reasonnings. And then, we get this huge "black curtain" that hides Isabel's wedding and the first months/years of her marriage, when she must have changed a lot. It's like we get a "before" picture, an "after" picture, but we are left to imagine the transformation.

Susan wrote: "—Is Mr Rosier’s income the only reason Mr Osmond doesn’t approve of his suit?"

I suspect Osmond looks at Rosier and sees a dim reflection of himself. Both are ex-patriates far removed from America, neither has any sort of occupation that identifies them, and they're both collectors of small art objects. Fairly superficial men. The difference is that Ned is passionate about Pansy, while it isn't clear that Osmond is passionate about anything at this point -- not even Isabel. I think there's a possibility that in looking at Ned, Osmond sees something of himself. We do know that he loves Pansy. Would he want a man like himself for her? He thinks she can do better.

I do wonder what sort of man Osmond would want for Pansy... when Madame Merle approaches him about Ned's suit, he says, "this kind of thing does not find me unprepared. It's what I educated her for. It was all for this -- that when such a case should come up she should do what I prefer." Which is what? It seems like it's about more than money, but i'm not sure what it is.

La_mariane noted the time lapse -- what happened to the wedding? Is this not something to be celebrated? To me, the fact that it is omitted suggests that it isn't.

La_mariane noted the time lapse -- what happened to the wedding? Is this not something to be celebrated? To me, the fact that it is omitted suggests that it isn't.

I know! Whenever an author leaves something to my imagination, I'm going to go with the worst I can think of!

I too was surprised by the leap of time and the tension between Isabel & Gilbert. WHAT happened?!! Perhaps once they were married Gilbert wasn't so interested after all or acted to squash some of the independence of Isabel that drove a wedge between them. What about the death of their child? How did that impact them? It can bind parents together or drive them apart. It is a mystery and certainly piques one's interest and hopefully all will be revealed as we move forward.

Pansy continues to be like milk toast to me. Rosier seems only interested in collecting another bibelot. A doll without her own character or thoughts. I like Thomas's thoughts about why Osmond isn't keen on Rosier as a potential husband for Pansy. But I also think he is used to Pansy adoring him and always wanting to please him. He no longer appears to get that from Isabel, so he might be loathe to let Pansy go.

As far as happy marriages go, we have seen very few in the novel played out. The Countess says her husband isn't a nice man, but we haven't been privy to seeing their relationship in play. Although Mrs. Touchett lived apart from her husband much of the time, I did not get the feeling that Mr. or Mrs. Touchett were unhappy in their relationship, and we are still talking of a time period that marrying for love among the genteel wasn't the norm. And who knows what is really going on with Madame Merle?

La_mariane wrote: "The thing that most surprised me was the time lapse : "Portrait of a Lady" is such a detailed book, we are informed of nearly every thoughts of the characters, we see Isabel's reasonnings. And then..."

Yes, the sudden jump forward in time was initially disorienting for me as a reader, especially coupled with the switch to Ned Rosier’s story and to an external perspective versus an interior view. As you point out, there are a lot of events/details in that time gap that we can only imagine, at least at this point. I guess those moves put the reader as much on “the outside” with Isabel as the other characters — and with as many questions.

Thomas wrote: "I think there's a possibility that in looking at Ned, Osmond sees something of himself. We do know that he loves Pansy. Would he want a man like himself for her? He thinks she can do better...".

Good point about the similarities between Ned and Osmond. My sense is that something is being said/implied in this section about collectors as a group— noting that Madame Merle is also one. There’s certainly an irony in Rosier’s tendency to look at the objects in Roccanera instead of the people:

”In general, when Rosier presented himself on a Thursday evening, his first recognition was for the walls of the saloon; there were three or four objects his eyes really yearned for. But after his talk with Madame Merle he felt the extreme seriousness of his position; and now, when he came in, he looked about for the daughter of the house with such eagerness as might be permitted a gentleman whose smile, as he crossed a threshold, always took everything comfortable for granted.” Chapter 36

I think Madame Merle’s marriage falls into the unhappy category. During the earlier trip to the East, Madame Merle gave Isabel an account:
“ …the admirable woman had also at last redeemed her promise of relating her history from her own point of view—a consummation the more desirable as Isabel had already heard it related from the point of view of others. This history was so sad a one (in so far as it concerned the late M. Merle, a positive adventurer, she might say, though originally so plausible, who had taken advantage, years before, of her youth and of an inexperience in which doubtless those who knew her only now would find it difficult to believe); it abounded so in startling and lamentable incidents that her companion wondered a person so éprouvée could have kept so much of her freshness, her interest in life…” Chapter 31

Susan wrote: "I think Madame Merle’s marriage falls into the unhappy category. During the earlier trip to the East, Madame Merle gave Isabel an account:
“ …the admirable woman had also at last redeemed her prom..."

Ah, I had forgotten. "Taken advantage of her youth" Sounds like what has happened to Isabel as well perhaps?

Madame Merle also gives an account of the Countess Gemini’s marriage: “ She told Isabel more about the poor Countess than Mr Osmond had done, and related the history of her marriage and its consequences. The Count was a member of an ancient Tuscan family, but of such small estate that he had been glad to accept Amy Osmond, in spite of the questionable beauty which had yet not hampered her career, with the modest dowry her mother was able to offer—a sum about equivalent to that which had already formed her brother's share of their patrimony. Count Gemini since then, however, had inherited money, and now they were well enough off, as Italians went, though Amy was horribly extravagant. The Count was a low-lived brute; he had given his wife every pretext”. Chapter 26

Chris wrote: "... "Taken advantage of her youth" Sounds like what has happened to Isabel as well perhaps? "

Exactly. And what may also happen to Pansy re making an unhappy marriage?

Chris wrote: "What about the death of their child? How did that impact them? It can bind parents together or drive them apart."

Good questions. We are still waiting for those answers, too.

Chris wrote: "Pansy continues to be like milk toast to me. Rosier seems only interested in collecting another bibelot. A doll without her own character or thoughts. I like Thomas's thoughts about why Osmond isn't keen on Rosier as a potential husband for Pansy. But I also think he is used to Pansy adoring him and always wanting to please him. He no longer appears to get that from Isabel, so he might be loathe to let Pansy go.."

Interesting angle. Osmond’s attitude toward his daughter definitely seems egocentric, with no consideration of what her thoughts and feelings might be. Maybe that’s why she doesn’t seem to have any? I keep remembering Mrs Touchett’s description of Pansy as “an insipid little chit.” Compared to Mrs Touchett or Isabel or Henrietta, she seems rather bland, but then she’s young and was brought up not to think for herself.

Was the Touchett marriage happy? I have a feeling we might get a different answer, depending on whether we asked Mr T or Mrs T

His egotism had never taken the crude form of desiring a dull wife; this lady’s intelligence was to be a silver plate, not an earthen one—a plate that he might heap up with ripe fruits, to which it would give a decorative value, so that talk might become for him a sort of served dessert. He found the silver quality in this perfection in Isabel; he could tap her imagination with his knuckle and make it ring.

What do you think of this quote (in chapiter 35), in Osmond's POV? I underlined it when I read the chapter, and I made a note of the terrible metaphor : Isalbel is a "plate"! If that's not objectification... And she's only useful to him as he can get use out of her : "he might heap with ripe fruits"!

I think this metaphor struck me because of the banality of the "plate" : such a common object, one we use every day, nothing great about it (even if it's "silver"!). It says much about Osmond's mind and how he views other people.

La_mariane wrote: "His egotism had never taken the crude form of desiring a dull wife; this lady’s intelligence was to be a silver plate, not an earthen one—a plate that he might heap up with ripe fruits, to which it..."

I found this metaphor chilling in what it says about Osmond’s attitude toward Isabel. As you point out, it’s egocentric, and it also reveals he knows nothing about who Isabel really is. The image James often uses for her is a bird, which is the antithesis of a plate waiting for someone to pile it with fruits. We don’t know anything about Osmond’s first marriage, but the metaphor also makes me wonder if he thought his first wife was an earthen plate or a silver one?

Susan wrote: ..."We don’t know anything about Osmond’s first marriage, but the metaphor also makes me wonder if he thought his first wife was an earthen plate or a silver one? ..."

Again and again I find this to be writing much like I finally have come to feel about Independent People, attempting to comprehend the vagaries and meandering and infrastructures of life as encountered by several unique individuals from diverse material and interpersonal backgrounds. So many themes interwoven. I have not read James' version as the author in his twenties, but so much is here, that it is fun to speculate the changes he made when editing it in his sixties, after 20-40 years of his sophisticated life.

I found Laxness harsh as writer/creator/author of his characters and their environments. I have not decided yet where I put PoaL, Or where to place either relative the current seeming obsession with using the Odyssey as a framing model for life's journeys.

Susan wrote: "We don’t know anything about Osmond’s first marriage, but the metaphor also makes me wonder if he thought his first wife was an earthen plate or a silver one? "

I love your contrast between 'majolica ware' and precious metal. I think we find it used more than once, although I can't point to the exact passage without more work than I am willing to do -- somewhere comparing the value of collected objects. I found it an intriguing contrast for Osmond's two (public?) relationships that had led to socially acknowledged procreations. I am reminded again that Victorian social protocols included a lot of shadows to conceal the "forbidden".

Lily wrote: "I love your contrast between 'majolica ware' and precious metal. I think we find it used more than once, although I can't point to the exact passage without more work than I am willing to do -- somewhere comparing the value of collected objects.."

Another collector’s metaphor is used about Mr Rosier and Pansy: “He thought of her in amorous meditation a good deal as he might have thought of a Dresden-china shepherdess.

Susan wrote: "La_mariane wrote: "His egotism had never taken the crude form of desiring a dull wife; this lady’s intelligence was to be a silver plate, not an earthen one—a plate that he might heap up with ripe ..."

Later on there is a scene where Mme Merle is speaking with Osmond about his marriage to Isabel. Osmond is distractedly examining a piece of china while Merle is speaking and says, "But there is a tiny crack in it." Objectification indeed.

Thomas wrote: "Later on there is a scene where Mme Merle is speaking with Osmond about his marriage to Isabel. Osmond is distractedly examining a piece of china while Merle is speaking and says, "But there is a tiny crack in it." Objectification indeed."

The piece of china with a little crack belongs to Mme Merle, who is also a collector. Could it be a metaphor for its owner?

Susan wrote: "The piece of china with a little crack belongs to Mme Merle, who is also a collector. Could it be a metaphor for its owner?"

I didn't notice that! Nice observation, and yes, Mme Merle has a serious attraction to material things. It's metaphorical on a couple levels then, or maybe it's just a smart remark by Osmond. He is becoming more disagreeable as the story goes on.