The Catholic Book Club discussion

1. Use this question to share your thoughts and comments that arise while reading the novel, "along the way." Or to discuss topics not raised by other questions.

It's interesting than during his very first weeks in prison, his visitors and friends reported that mass attendance had gone up in Australia as a consequence of the trial.

The feeling among Catholics was one of spiritual warfare, and even some lapsed Catholics felt the urge to go back.

I just read an excellent short book (more like a booklet) by Fr. Faber about self-deceit, which he says we're all prone to. He said that the best way to fight it is through a close relationship with God -- meditating on his attributes, for example -- that we become humble and simply ourselves.

His explanation of this keeps reminding me of Cardinal Pell -- his simplicity, his being himself without putting on airs. For example --

"reverence towards God makes men natural and simple towards each other. There is a modest yet unabashed naturalness of manner, which occasionally distinguishes spiritual persons, into whatever company they are thrown."

and "Communion with God eats away our unreality. We catch simplicity as part of the likeness of Jesus, and it is His likeness which love fastens on."

and so on. I think the Cardinal was a very holy man!

This is the Spanish 16th century anonymous poem mentioned in the section about April 2 2019:

No me mueve, mi Dios, para quererte
el cielo que me tienes prometido,
ni me mueve el infierno tan temido
para dejar por eso de ofenderte.

Tú me mueves, Señor, muéveme el verte
clavado en una cruz y escarnecido,
muéveme ver tu cuerpo tan herido,
muévenme tus afrentas y tu muerte.

Muéveme, en fin, tu amor, y en tal manera,
que aunque no hubiera cielo, yo te amara,
y aunque no hubiera infierno, te temiera.

No me tienes que dar porque te quiera,
pues aunque lo que espero no esperara,
lo mismo que te quiero te quisiera.

And this would be an English translation:

My God, I am not moved to love you
by the heaven you have promised me,
nor will I stop offending you
because of the hell I am so afraid of.

You move me, Lord, it moves me seeing you
nailed to a cross and mocked,
it moves me seeing your body so wounded,
it moves me your being insulted and your death.

Your love moves me, in such a way,
that if there were no heaven, I would love you,
and if there were no hell, I would fear you.

You do not have to give me because I love you,
for even if I did not hope what I hope,
I would love you just as much as I love you.

His sense of humor made life easier for him and those around him. e.g. Dinnertime in jail is even earlier than in a nursing home. Only a couple of other prisoners have mentioned him as they're shouting and cursing. He prays for small troubles to counteract pride without having to suffer bigger ones. He says even an atheist has no trouble accepting the reality of original sin.

He's ecumenical enough to receive ashes from an Anglican and call the Salvation Army chaplain a "strong disciple of the Lord" And he mentions an interfaith dinner to break the Ramadan fast.

I don't see a "favorite quotes" question but here are some of mine:
"Life is inescapably a mighty struggle between good and ill [though more "staidly" in Australia than in the Third World.]"
"I must take care that false steps of mine do not damage the spiritual ecology."
"concentrate on doing what one can rather than lamenting what one cannot do."
"A kind word warms for three winters" (quote sent to him)
"the bland leading the bland"
"May the Son of God who is already formed in you grow in you so that for you he will become immeasurable and that in you he will become laughter, exultation, the fullness of joy, which no one will take from you." (Isaac of Stella)
"always looking for a new system so we do not need to be good...Rejuvenation goes far beyond even essential administrative reforms."
"Until sin makes a comeback, the Church cannot go forward."

He consistently prays for his accuser and those who think ill of him, and for jail staff to avoid sinking into hatred of the most trying prisoners.
He's grateful for "torrents of prayer."
Sounds like he carried on an amazing amount of correspondence, prioritizing those imprisoned with him.
interesting reflection on sun worship as a motivation for Genesis starting with creation of light
not "following" any saint or scholar--just the New Testament narrative about Jesus' redemptive suffering!
His explanation of Hinduism as a blanket term coined by the British to cover every religion that isn't Christian, Muslim or Buddhist--new to me
chocolate lamb better than Easter bunny!

Jill wrote: "His explanation of Hinduism as a blanket term coined by the British to cover every religion that isn't Christian, Muslim or Buddhist--new to me"

In a sense, this is true; in another, it isn't.
On the one hand, Hinduism is divided into a multitude of branches: those whose Supreme God is Siva, Vishnu, Krishna, Kali, et cetera.
On the other hand, all those branches have lots of common things behind them. I wouldn't say that they are different religions.
For more information: Krishna versus Christ: A comparative study of Hinduism and Christianity

I am reading the foreword of the spanish edition and this case is being compared with the Dreyfuss's case in France. In my opinion was a revenge as the case of Isabel Pantoja in Spain. She was condemned by the envy. I know that the cardinal Pell had a lot of enemies and he was a trouble to the establishment. It sounds me that he participated in discussions with Atheists i do not know if the Professor will know something about this.

I did not know if the spanish edition was the same edition that the book that we are reading in the Catholic Book Club but i have seen the original title and they are the same. For this reason i will be able to participate in the discussion of this book.

I had heard Professor that Kali is a corrupción of the Godess Parvati the Shiva's wife. I do not know that she is the Godess of the Thugs who were destroyed in the 19th century. I must confess that the Temple of Doom is one of my favorite movies sorry for the hindian prople but i love it 😄.

The foreword that i have read was written the well known vaticanist George Weigel. I am reading the two first pages of the journal.

Fonch wrote: "It sounds me that he participated in discussions with Atheists i do not know if the Professor will know something about this."

On April 2012 Pell and Richard Dawkins had a debate in the Australian TV that was watched by a million viewers.

Fonch wrote: "The foreword that i have read was written the well known vaticanist George Weigel. I am reading the two first pages of the journal."

The Introduction of the English version is by George Weigel. So they are the same edition.

Fonch wrote: "I had heard Professor that Kali is a corrupción of the Goddess Parvati the Shiva's wife. I do not know that she is the Godess of the Thugs who were destroyed in the 19th century. I must confess that..."

Kali means "the Black One" and is one of the names of Parvati, the sakti of Siva. The name "sakti" applies to the active principle of a god and is identified with the goddess considered as the spouse of the god.

Brahma's sakti is called Sarasvati, and Vishnu's sakti's name is Lakhsmi.

Thanks for replying to my previous message. I had heard the names of the wives of Visnu, and Brahma 😅.

Tomorrow i finished with the novel that i am reading and after i will continue with "Prison journal".

I am very pleased that Cardinal Pell while writing this diary compares his experiences with those of Job, and makes an exegesis of this book and compares it with the Confessions & Letters with a Sketch of His Life & Work of Augustine of Hippo

Wolf HallAnother thing I like is that Pell threw that dart at the Thomas Cromwell trilogy written by the South African novelist Hilary Mantel. I wonder in the last book how Thomas Cromwell repents of his crimes and returns to the Catholic Church after having been with his master's acquiescence of the destruction of the monasteries.
With Hilary Mantel I have a pending account, this woman was Catholic and she came to write edifying novels such as Fludd I was able to understand the French Revolution thanks to her novel especially I was able to understand the personality of its leaders Camille Desmoulins, Danton, and the one that interested me the most was that of Robespierre A Place of Greater Safety . I had high hopes for Hilary Mantel, but they were disappointed when she wrote the Thomas Cromwell trilogy Wolf Hall / Bring Up the Bodies / The Mirror a[book:Wolf Hallnd the Light|52172741] . I started reading Wolf Hall and I had to stop it because of the disgust it gave me, and because it presented St. Thomas More and Gardiner (the villains of the novel). Apart from the fact that I did not understand the temporal and narrative leaps that I took. He adopted a line similar to that of a writer who I have taken a deep mania for, such as Ken Follett.

It is very interesting to compare this book with another book on prisons such as my prisons My prisons =: Le mie prigioni by the Italian Silvio Pellico or Curzio Malaparte.

As a collector of Catholic writers, I have been very interested in Cardinal Pell quoting MacAudley and Les Murray and saying of the former that he is his favorite poet. I don't know why lately I'm starting to take an interest in Australia. I used to like Morris L. West, but I didn't like it anymore.

I enjoyed the short meditations on his readings, and the prayers and poems he includes.

Cardinal Pell mentions a priest in US imprisoned for 25 years who still claims his innocence.

Fr. MacRae is still in prison 5 years later. He writes a weekly blog post (which he types on a typewriter and mails to a person outside who posts it online). Here is one of his recent Christmas posts.

https://beyondthesestonewalls.com/pos...


And this is another post, at the bottom of which Fr. MacRae talks about Cardinal Pell’s sentence.


https://beyondthesestonewalls.com/pos...

Mariangel wrote: "Cardinal Pell mentions a priest in US imprisoned for 25 years who still claims his innocence.

Fr. MacRae is still in prison 5 years later. He writes a weekly blog post (which he types on a typewr..."

Excellent post Maria Angeles.

Mariangel wrote: "Cardinal Pell mentions a priest in US imprisoned for 25 years who still claims his innocence.

Fr. MacRae is still in prison 5 years later. He writes a weekly blog post (which he types on a typewr..."

Fr. MacRae has been offered parole, but one of the requirements of parole is acknowledging guilt, which he cannot do. Even accepting a pardon is said to implicitly involve an admission of guilt. There are aspects of our "justice" system that seem a mockery of the very idea.

Mariangel wrote: "Cardinal Pell mentions a priest in US imprisoned for 25 years who still claims his innocence.

Fr. MacRae is still in prison 5 years later. He writes a weekly blog post (which he types on a typewr..."

I think everyone who has looked at Fr. MacRae's case believes he is innocent.

I have just concluded the book 😊. I liked really much. I am on holidays the University pasases the party of Saint Thomas Aquinas today.

My review of this book is here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Other than the fact that he is in prison, and is subject to all the many petty indignities that entails, and the daily small humiliations designed to show that you have exactly zero control over your life, his stay in solitary confinement was much more congenial than I would have thought it would be. I don't know if that's a difference between Australian and American prisons, or if my understanding of American prison life has been too influenced by Hollywood.

Letters - it is clear the letters he received were a good consolation to him. Letter writing has gone out of style in our world, but clearly has significant impact on those deprived of general human contact. Have you ever considered writing to prisoners?

I'm thinking about writing to Father MacRae.

Fr. MacRae has mentioned that the rules regarding mail in his prison are stricter than the Australian ones :

https://beyondthesestonewalls.com/reg...

In particular, he will not be forwarded any letters that use his title "Father, Fr". Only first/last name.

I finished the book yesterday. What I liked the most was how simple it was in the best way... "sencillo" as we say in Spanish.
Even his little routines and writing about them did not sound repetitive because specially, in his prayer life, it was this routine that helped him during this period. I was also happy that he admitted he "dozed off" during the Rosary... I always find encouraging that even people like the Cardinal or the little flower experience this very human spiritual set backs, they do not make a big deal about them, they just move on and keep praying. Just like the Cardinal I am also used to keeping journals and this has been a lesson to me on spiritual warfare, and how to write about my day better.

A.J wrote: "I finished the book yesterday. What I liked the most was how simple it was in the best way... "sencillo" as we say in Spanish.
Even his little routines and writing about them did not sound repetiti..."

I agree -- simple is a good word for it.