Victorians! discussion

Anthony Trollope begins Cousin Henry (1879) by throwing the reader right in the midst of the conundrum that forms the core of the book: who should the squire Indefer Jones leave his property to? But who is Indefer Jones and what is the problem that tugs at his mind so?

As the conversation between him and the young lady, who we discover is his much-beloved niece, Isabel Brodrick unfolds and in the two chapters that follow, the details begin slowly to emerge. Indefer Jones, squire of Llanfeare, a manor overlooking cliffs in Carmarthenshire, and some not insignificant lands, is torn between his heart which wants to leave all he has to Isabel, a good-natured, seemingly sensible and endearing young woman who has lived with him for a decade (since her father remarried) and what he thinks is his duty—leaving his property to one bearing the family name—to another Jones. The person who stands to inherit, though, Henry, his nephew, son of his brother (also Henry) who was somewhat of a disgrace and who is himself sly, a liar and unable to look one in the eye when speaking to them.

But Indefer Jones can’t quite make up his mind—this dilemma constantly playing on it and consequently he vacillates, making a will in Isabel’s favour, then changing it to Henry and so on.

For him, the perfect solution would be if Isabel married Henry (after all, he seems to have given up his wild ways now), but the self-respecting Isabel will have none of it: "But it is impossible for a young woman with a respect for herself such as I have to submit herself to a man that she loathes.”

And deep down, Indefer too realises that this can’t be and his one (final) attempt to encourage the match ends more in him being disgusted and disappointed in Henry than any furtherance of the suit as Isabel is clear what she wants while Henry is simply trying to secure his inheritance and nothing more.

Isabel doesn’t particularly mind either that she will have nothing, but Indefer can’t reconcile his mind and heart, and Henry simply can’t understand that anyone could be disinterested in the property.

Despite her good sense and nature, Isabel, too as we see has her dilemmas—her heart is already given to the minor canon, William Owen, not a suitable husband socially if she is to be an heiress—yet if she isn’t, perhaps that is where she can find happiness and a home; and I’m quite sure even with the property, Owen can’t be any more unsuitable than Henry except that he lacks the Jones name.

So this week’s chapters have introduced us to our main characters and given us a sense of what our story will revolve around.

Indefer Jones
The first thing I got curious about with Indefer Jones was his first name and whether that was a play on his indecisiveness. None of my searches have yielded any results so far.

While one can sympathise to an extent with his dilemma—given his age and the time, his inclination to adhere to tradition makes sense as does his wish to provide for Isabel. But the vacillations, not so much?

And then again, he claims to and does care for his property; yet, he seems to be mismanaging it and not being able to make the income that he can; what should one make of this contrast?

Isbael Brodrick
The most level headed and sensible of the characters we’ve met so far; she seems to know her mind as far as Henry is concerned and is truly unaffected by the property being left to another. Yet she has troubles of her own as far as matters of the heart are concerned. While the social implications of a relationship with William Owen have their significance, she seems to be running away from her own feelings towards him too.

Henry Jones
Cousin Henry of the title isn’t the most likeable of people for even if we haven’t seen any evidence f his slyness or dishonesty so far, his inability to meet anyone eye to eye and his approach toward proposing to Isabel is, as Indefer acknowledges, no more than a business transaction for him, one he’d happily do without were his inheritance secure. What did we make of him so far?

This was an interesting start that sets us up nicely. I certainly didn’t warm to Henry, but this must be because of how Indefer and Isabel see him, as so far he hasn’t really done anything wrong. He has apparently put his early indiscretions behind him and he is trying to make himself agreeable to Indefer. Yet those hints about him being sly, Isabel’s dislike, and his eagerness to inherit, seem to be setting him up as the villain.

I am keen to learn more about Isabel’s romance with Owen, her pride and discretion have worked against her for now, but maybe without the inheritance they have a chance. Sad that Indefer is about to die, will he change his mind yet again before then?

I also liked Isabel’s plain speaking, she is no meek Victorian lady, she speaks her mind to both Indefer and Henry.

I loved the dialogue in these three chapters; so sharp and snappy. If it were staged, you could hear how everyone was stepping on each other's lines.

I wish there had been a little more show, not tell, about how wonderful Isabel is. On the other hand, I think both Uncle Indefer and Henry were depicted ably through their speech and actions.

Most enjoyable so far; I'm sitting on my hands so as not to get ahead!

My first intriguing thought was about the way Henry was depicted from the start and the fact that he formed the title of the novel. From the first three chapters alone it seemed like Isabel was going to be the central character. However, there is a long way to go.

And Henry has a long way to go to convince the reader that he is at least OK. In chapter three his decision to ask Isabel to marry him was solely in order to obtain the estate, as if she was an appendage to the house and lands.

Even this decision showed the reader that he was not the most astute person in the world because he soon found out that both the uncle and Isabel had become hostile to that idea.

Isabel’s reply to his offer was at best blunt but to use the word ‘odious’ was really going too far. She did want to put him off her forever but there was no need to insult him.

I have never heard of the name Indefer, even though my own name is Welsh. Of course Jones is an old Welsh name as is Owen, and Henry can be linked to the Welsh Tudor Kings.

The pub ‘The Pembroke Lion’ made me think that the Llanfaere estate might be in Pembrokeshire in South West Wales, which is a good distance from Hereford. Of course it might not be there but there could be clues later in the book.

Here is a map of Wales which includes Hereford (over the border in England), to help get an idea of where the story was located.

Pamela wrote: "This was an interesting start that sets us up nicely. I certainly didn’t warm to Henry, but this must be because of how Indefer and Isabel see him, as so far he hasn’t really done anything wrong. H..."

True, he hasn't really done anything wrong. The only thing against perhaps is that he makes clear that his proposal to Isabel is merely to secure his inheritance (a transaction) and there's no question any liking (let alone love) involved; mercenary but may be not enough reason to write him off entirely

Nancy wrote: "I loved the dialogue in these three chapters; so sharp and snappy. If it were staged, you could hear how everyone was stepping on each other's lines.

I wish there had been a little more show, not..."

I agree Nancy; Isbel's qualities so far have been told more than seen except may be in that she really isn't interested in the property which is something in her favour.

Trev wrote: "My first intriguing thought was about the way Henry was depicted from the start and the fact that he formed the title of the novel. From the first three chapters alone it seemed like Isabel was goi..."

Thanks for sharing the map, Trev and for your inputs on the names. Indefer didn't seem to show up on any searches either apart from direct references to the book. Trollope does (like Dickens) play around with names (Omicron Pie and Lamda Mewnew) so I wondered if this was one such instance but no luck tracing out anything.

I wondered of Isabel's use of 'odious' was related to past interactions more than what we witnessed here though it would seem that the adult Henry has been making all efforts to befit his upcoming duties.

Looking forward to joining in and starting the read today.

I like Isabel because she knows what she wants and doesn’t want. And she appears to be ready to face the consequences for her position.

Brave woman for that day and age!

I feel sorry for Henry. He’s trying to do what his uncle wants, but his uncle is so angry at his own sense of duty that he won’t give the guy a chance to please him.

Henry is sort of in a damned if you do damned if you don’t position here. And none of it is his fault.

Trev wrote: "My first intriguing thought was about the way Henry was depicted from the start and the fact that he formed the title of the novel. From the first three chapters alone it seemed like Isabel was going to be the central character. However, there is a long way to go.

And Henry has a long way to go to convince the reader that he is at least OK. In chapter three his decision to ask Isabel to marry him was solely in order to obtain the estate, as if she was an appendage to the house and lands.."

Cousin Henry is being held to a higher standard than Uncle Indefer; they both view the property and marriage to Isabel as transactional. It's not as if Uncle Indefer is letting his finer feelings about Isabel's future change his resolve even though he loves her and depends on her. Cousin Henry isn't invested in Isabel at all, which makes Uncle Indefer worse, in that respect. Henry has shrugged off earlier indiscretions and settled down to do what he must, which if not admirable is at least better than many other characters in Trollope's novels in a similar situation! He can hardly be blamed for wanting to inherit.

It seems as if Cousin Henry has one of those unfortunate personalities; like Soames Forsyte he has "no magnet in his makeup". He's still not a good person, but it makes life difficult for him. Again, many Trollopean characters in a similar situation are smarmy and ingratiating and likeable, none of which would change the facts of the matter that Isabel is getting the boot when Uncle Indefer dies. At least she has a place to go; would the prospect of her being cast off into the world penniless have changed Uncle Indefer's will?

Nancy wrote: " Henry has shrugged off earlier indiscretions and settled down to do what he must, which if not admirable is at least better than many other characters in Trollope's novels in a similar situation! He can hardly be blamed for wanting to inherit..."

I like your appraisal of Henry so far and I agree with you.

The question for me is……was it those ‘indiscretions’ earlier in his life (How bad were they?) that has made him unlikeable or is it his personality as a whole that makes both Isabel and her uncle erect a barrier of what to me borders on hate?

Both Indefer and Isabel could at least act in a civil way towards him even if it meant remaining cold and aloof. I was a little bit shocked at the way they both tore into him.

After all they or at least Indefer invited him. When he arrived Indefer was so grudging towards him I am sure that Henry really wanted to say ‘Stick your Estate, I’m going back to town.’

Trev wrote: "Both Indefer and Isabel could at least act in a civil way towards him even if it meant remaining cold and aloof. I was a little bit shocked at the way they both tore into him.

After all they or at least Indefer invited him. When he arrived Indefer was so grudging towards him I am sure that Henry really wanted to say ‘Stick your Estate, I’m going back to town.’"

The more I think about it, the more distasteful I find Uncle Indefer. He wants Cousin Henry to get him off the hook, to resolve his moral dilemma. And then when Henry shows up and is detestable to Isabel, Indefer blames Henry for not being being sufficiently appealing to romance Isabel and absolve Indefer. "Stick your estate," indeed!

Yes, without knowing the nature of Henry's transgressions, it's hard to judge either way. But in any case, he can do no more now than to change his ways. And, the more reprehensible his past deeds, the worse it is for Indefer to try to force Isabel into a marriage with him.

It's interesting that Isabel is so confident and willing to sacrifice any interest in Uncle Indefer's estate, but both Indefer and Cousin Henry are willing to use her as a bargaining chip. Of course, she has long disliked Henry and is secretly carrying a torch for another man, but the men seem unable to understand that she is not willing to sacrifice her life's happiness just to ease their consciences about the estate.

Was anyone else put off by Henry declaring that he loves Isabel "with all my heart" when he obviously does not? I don't (much) mind him wanting to marry for money instead of love, it has often been done at the time and often successfully. I just wish he had been frank about it, especially since (he knows that) Isabel knows about their uncle's wishes. So if Henry is not a bad guy, then he also seems not to be a very clever young man. Same for the conversations he has with his uncle. Granted the difficult position he is in, where he cannot please in any way, I agree with Nancy that he might have one of these unfortunate personalities.

I was also intrigued by the name Indefer, but couldn't find anything that might be useful.

And I have a curious question that I hope someone can help me with: I have noticed that in any Victorian novel I pick up, there is someone with "grey eyes". Usually it is the heroine, so I assume that this is a positive attribute. Now, I don't know anyone in real life that has literally grey eyes, so I am wondering if that means something else? Like hazel eyes being a combo of brown and green? I have been puzzled by this for a while now and would love to have this solved.

Lindenblatt wrote: "Was anyone else put off by Henry declaring that he loves Isabel "with all my heart" when he obviously does not? "

That didn't bother me; Henry's trying to play the game and he's doing it badly. It was foolish on Henry's part since Indefer knows it's not the truth; but if Henry had been honest about his feelings and motivations Indefer would have resented that as well. It's a damned if he does and damned if he doesn't scenario.

Trev wrote: ".The pub ‘The Pembroke Lion’ made me think that the Llanfaere estate might be in Pembrokeshire in South West Wales, which is a good distance from Hereford."

The doctor who visits Indefer comes "from Carmarthen...twice a week". So Llanfeare must be close to Carmarthen, which is on your map. Thanks for the map.

Nancy wrote: "I loved the dialogue in these three chapters; so sharp and snappy. If it were staged, you could hear how everyone was stepping on each other's lines.

I wish there had been a little more show, not..."

Great point about the dialogue. Isabel's words are "showing" her character, are they not? She gives Henry some good advice, but he ignores it. Probably because she is a woman, but also because "he could not bring himself to believe that the advice had been disinterested." Which shows something about his character.

Cousin Henry is my introduction to Trollope, and I have to say I’m loving his style so far! The characters are so vivid that I found myself thinking “I know an Uncle Indefer in real life” or “I know someone like Isabel.” Love them both so far, btw. Isabel for her wit and sacrificial love, Uncle Indefer for his sympathy and sense of duty. I’m undecided on Henry—I have pity for him despite his self-interestedness. You do some stupid things when you’re young because you lack the discipline or the awareness, but then you realize the error of your past ways and seek to correct them. Too little, too late for Henry, perhaps? Or has he not truly changed, and is the “self-redemption arc” a charade?

My thoughts on Indefer’s name: if “defer” is taken in the context of “deferring to someone or something,” i.e. letting others decide or choose, we can see how Uncle Indefer is incapable of this, emphasis on the prefix “in-,” i.e. not. Everything is according to his WILL. And yet the man is ironically the definition of indecisive, which is reflected in the sheer amount of times he rewrites his will.

Some lines I especially enjoyed:

“You are always full of poetry and books.”
(Great thing to be full of, btw)

“Britain would not be ruined because Llanfeare should be allowed to go out of the proper order, but Britain would be ruined if Britons did not do their duty in that sphere of life to which it had pleased God to call them; and in this case his duty was to maintain the old order of things.”
(We can’t let Britain go to ruin!)

“There was no special disease, but he was a worn out old man.”
(Same)

The whole scene in which Uncle Indefer tears into Henry for proposing to Isabel even though he originally said that he should.

Ginny wrote: ".The doctor who visits Indefer comes "from Carmarthen...twice a week". So Llanfeare must be close to Carmarthen, which is on your map. Thanks for the map"

.."

Well spotted Ginny. I would imagine that Llanfaere might be somewhere between Carmarthen and Pembroke and as you say, nearer to Carmarthen. From 1856 Carmarthen had a railway station. Today the seventy mile journey to Hereford takes three hours and four hours by bus. It is eighty six miles by road which would have been very uncomfortable then.

The Bradshaws tourist guide of 1866 says this about Carmarthen.

’ Carmarthen is the capital of Carmarthenshire on the South Wales Railway, and the river Towey, with a population of 9,993, who, jointly with Llanelly, return one member. It is one of the most healthy towns, and commands a view of one of the finest vales in the principality. It has a good foreign and coasting trade; and boasts of a handsome town hall and market house, a Presbyterian college, free grammar school, &c., &c……..

There is more about Carmarthen from Bradshaw here……

https://bradshaws.guide/places/wales/...

I enjoyed this opening. Trollope typically starts with several chapters introducing characters before we get into the meat of the plot or conflict. Once I recognized his style, I was able to sink into his openings and enjoy getting to know everyone. (Although, I agree that AT seems to be holding something back in this case.)

Since there’s already some conflict, I’m already wondering what other elements of contention will arise. (Colored, of course, by the title of chapter 4, and the title of the novel.) I’m very much looking forward to the next installment.

revexxa wrote: "Cousin Henry is my introduction to Trollope, and I have to say I’m loving his style so far! The characters are so vivid that I found myself thinking “I know an Uncle Indefer in real life” or “I kno..."

Excellent dissection of the name!

This book Is my first introduction to Trollope as well. I agree with Nancy - I like the snappy dialogue. We all know roughly the plot of this story so I suppose it will end by revealing who actually inherits and what happens to the protagonist and his cousin. However, Henry gets a bad Press and Isabel sounds too good to be true. I feel there’s gonna be a big twist at the end!

Jules wrote: "Looking forward to joining in and starting the read today."

Good to hear that, Jules

Nancy wrote: "Trev wrote: "Both Indefer and Isabel could at least act in a civil way towards him even if it meant remaining cold and aloof. I was a little bit shocked at the way they both tore into him.

After a..."
That's a good point about Uncle Indefer, Nancy. I hadn't considered it that way. For his conscience sake, he hasn't considered that two lives will be, if not ruined, but far from happy.

Nancy wrote: "Lindenblatt wrote: "Was anyone else put off by Henry declaring that he loves Isabel "with all my heart" when he obviously does not? "

That didn't bother me; Henry's trying to play the game and he'..."

Very true, that. Even though this doesn't take away from what might be his past indiscretions or the not so likeable aspects of his character

Renee wrote: "I enjoyed this opening. Trollope typically starts with several chapters introducing characters before we get into the meat of the plot or conflict. Once I recognized his style, I was able to sink i..."

Me too, Renee. It was so different from the usual to be thrown right amidst the action, so to speak!

revexxa wrote: "Cousin Henry is my introduction to Trollope, and I have to say I’m loving his style so far! The characters are so vivid that I found myself thinking “I know an Uncle Indefer in real life” or “I kno..."

Glad you're enjoying it! Agreed about the characters too. So much fewer than his usual, though.

Trev wrote: "Here is a map of Wales which includes Hereford (over the border in England), to help get an idea of where the story was located.."

As an American, I try to get my England location bearings based on my readings, I am currently reading a Brother Cadfael mystery which takes place in 12th century Shrewsbury, which would be in the county just north, possibly the nearest large town to Hereford? I also just finished a P.G Wodehouse who I think places his Blandings Castle not far from this western Midlands locale. It would be nice to run into a possible Lord Emsworth ancestor..

I am in the" Cousin Henry is being treated unfairly just because he's shallow" camp. Unlike a Soames Forsyte, though, he is pleasantly shallow. I agree that his "lie" about love wasn't a lie to him but just his playing his assigned part in the play he thought his host wanted to put on.
While Isabel is a bit haughty for my taste, I also like a heroine with flaws. But I do think Henry should find a less high-maintenance woman than Isabel, one who also inhabits the shallow end of the pool. And if Isabel ends up married to a preacher, while that may be a good fit, I won't be inviting them to my dinner parties. I'll choose Henry and his bride to fill out my table.

Trev wrote: "My first intriguing thought was about the way Henry was depicted from the start and the fact that he formed the title of the novel. From the first three chapters alone it seemed like Isabel was going to be the central character. However, there is a long way to go.."

I thought that too, but when I thought more about it I think there is significance in the fact that the title is COUSIN HENRY and not HENRY JONES.
I just finished Elizabeth Gaskell's similarly titled Cousin Phillis which, while about Phillis, is mainly about her role in the life of the person calling her "Cousin Phillis" whose perspective the story is from, the "other" central character her cousin.
Using the designation "Cousin" before Henry implicitly provides that either 'the' main character or at least a co-central character will be a person cousin to this Cousin. That would be Isabel. In that sense, the title, as of this point, is a fairly accurate one. But as Trev says "there is a long way to go."
One could assert that another accurate title would be My Cousin Henry like with My Ántonia

Or My Cousin Rachel.

Brian E wrote: "Trev wrote: "My first intriguing thought was about the way Henry was depicted from the start and the fact that he formed the title of the novel. From the first three chapters alone it seemed like I..."

You could be right Brian. I was going to mention the number of times that Henry Jones is referred to in the text as ‘Cousin Henry’ whereas Isabel is never given the ‘cousin’ title before her name. Not only does it single Henry out but it seems to exaggerate his position as an outsider in the affairs at Llanfeare.

I wonder too if referring to him as Cousin Henry isn’t a subtle vehicle for making him the outsider from the very beginning of this book.

Beda wrote: "I wonder too if referring to him as Cousin Henry isn’t a subtle vehicle for making him the outsider from the very beginning of this book."

I agree. As was mentioned earlier, he's damned if he does or if he doesn't.
So far we really haven't seen much of Henry's personality, just the viewpoints of Isabel and Indefer, which aren't objective.

The fact that this book was written originally as a serial might explain getting right down into the action unlike some of Trollope's more descriptive openings.

I deliberately delayed reading this book because I knew that it's really hard to stop reading a Trollope novel once you've started!

Nancy wrote: "I loved the dialogue in these three chapters; so sharp and snappy. If it were staged, you could hear how everyone was stepping on each other's lines."

Definitely, very snappy. And as others mentioned, Chapter 1 dove right in to the dialog. Different style from an initial 2-3 pages description.

I don't like Henry so far, because it said "He had been popular with no one there, having been found to be a sly boy, given to lying"

"... In marrying a man a woman should be able to love every little trick belonging to him. The parings of his nails should be a care to her. It should be pleasant to her to serve him in things most menial. Would it be so to me, do you think, with Henry Jones?"
"You are always full of poetry and books."

"... I don't suppose that you have the insight to see that she is different from other girls."
"Oh, yes; I perceived that."
"And yet you would go and ask her to be your wife off-hand, just as though you were going to buy a horse! I suppose you told her that it would be a good thing because of the estate?"
"I did mention it," said the young man, altogether astounded and put beyond himself by his uncle's manner and words.

Ha, fun

Bonnie wrote: "Nancy wrote: "I loved the dialogue in these three chapters; so sharp and snappy. If it were staged, you could hear how everyone was stepping on each other's lines."

Definitely, very snappy. And as..."

Glad you're enjoying it so far, Bonnie. It was quite interesting Trollope jumping straight into the plot here unlike his usual style of setting the scene.