The Debate Club discussion

Thanks for the idea, Sunny :)

America was clearly founded on Christian values and the founding fathers said that their ideas for government would only work under Christian values. The decertation of independence States the Christian God in it. The Original national anthem has the Phrase "In God we trust." Which is why it appears on money. The US used to have state churches funded by taxpayers money. That was why there were 13 original colonies. They represented different denominations. The Idea of the separation of church and state was supposed to limit the power of state churches outside of the boundary of their state. So for example the church of new York would not take over the church of Rhode island.

Furthermore the idea of a secular state did not exist until the French revolution where the purposely tried to destroy all religious ideas in France. Ultimately leading to the reign of terror. Where held back by no morality anymore mad men executed people for little reason at all.

Another interesting thing to note Is that American conservatives trace their ideas back to the American revolution and founding of America. While the American progressives trace their ideas back to the french revolution. So american politics is the struggle between the two revolutions.

But many of the founding fathers were not practicing Christian, but had limited exposure to other religions. God does not necessarily mean only Christiniaty

Saying that, some did. For example, John Adams was really interested in Hinduism/Sanathan Dharma texts.

Austin wrote: "Another interesting thing to note Is that American conservatives trace their ideas back to the American revolution and founding of America. While the American progressives trace their ideas back to..."

And both revolutions are hated by the Brits

The exposure to other religions is irrelevant for this conversation.

Again other religions have different names for God. Had they intended on other gods they would have named them.

Even the agnostic founding fathers at least payed lip service to christian civilization and moral values. Believing their system would only work under christian values

Well, not really. God isn't known as God in any language except English, it isn't in the Bible.

well America is an English break away state so it makes sense. God is mentioned in the bible all over the place.

YHWH is God, not "God" which is the english translation.

It doesn't mean anything.

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Austin wrote: "Another interesting thing to note Is that American conservatives trace their ideas back to the American revolution and founding of America. While the American progressives trace thei..."

all progressive movements around the world come from the French revolutions ideas. Marx got a lot of his ideas from the French revolution and the Soviets in turns stole many ideas from the French revolution.

And no one knows what the british conservatives conserve. So it makes sense that the british hate both sides.

Elohim, Adonai, El roi, El shaaddai, Jehovah Jireh, Yahweh, Jehovah Rapha, Jehovah Nissi, Jehovah Shalom, Yahweh Tsuri, Yahweh Tsebaoth, Yahweh Rohi..... Yeah i could go on. "God" is just an english simplification of the name

MidnightButterfly wrote: "YHWH is God, not "God" which is the english translation.

It doesn't mean anything."

even if you take that stance the new testament is littered with the name God.

But I don't take that stance again God is the English way to refer to the Christian God.

Dieu in french, dios in spanish

All just different words in different kanguages. It says God as the constituion is written in English

Austin wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Austin wrote: "Another interesting thing to note Is that American conservatives trace their ideas back to the American revolution and founding of America. While the Americ..."

We cinserve the british traditions, which arent american traditions

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Dieu in french, dios in spanish

All just different words in different kanguages. It says God as the constituion is written in English"

again this argument is irrelevant because america's Language is English. It would not make sense to say God in any other language.

Austin wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Dieu in french, dios in spanish

All just different words in different kanguages. It says God as the constituion is written in English"

again this argument is irrelevant ..."

Exactly so the cinstituion says God. It doesnt say anything about chrisitianity, just about God which is the one word in english used to refer to a heavenly father.

I do want to point out i do think that america was founded as a christian state as in.
A state with the moras guided by the bible, but also a state where other religions + religions should not be imposed by the state. It was supposed to restrict the power of the state, inckuding in religion.

Just my 2 pence.

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Austin wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Dieu in french, dios in spanish

All just different words in different kanguages. It says God as the constituion is written in English"

again this argument..."

Again God is the english way to refer to the Christian God. It would not make sense for them to put anything else when referring to the Christian God. Which they are clearly trying to do. Just because today we have many non christian here doesn't mean their original intent was non christian. That is a revisionist view of history.

Austin wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Austin wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Dieu in french, dios in spanish

All just different words in different kanguages. It says God as the constituion is written in Eng..."

Well, idk what other ways are there to refer to a non christian god?

Look it probably is, christianity in itself has many different denominations saying different things, so chrsitianity in itself is an umbrella term.

Jewish YHWH
Islamic Allah
Native great sky spirit
The satanists Satan
The atheists Science
The hindus Shiva
The buddist Budda
ect. All of those foreign names exist.

Austin wrote: "Jewish YHWH
Islamic Allah
Native great sky spirit
The satanists Satan
The atheists Science
The hindus Shiva
The buddist Budda
ect. All of those foreign names exist."

Those arent english besides like science

Christianity is a term to differenate it from other religions that aren't christian.

Also wdym shiva 😭😭 the term is "Brahman" for the ultimate Father but nobody uses that term because we just say "God" in whetever language we soeak. Like if i were spesking in french, id say "Dieu" to refer to "Brahman"

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Also wdym shiva 😭😭 the term is "Brahman" for the ultimate Father but nobody uses that term because we just say "God" in whetever language we soeak. Like if i were spesking in french, id say "Dieu" ..."

fine Brahmin for hindu.

Austin wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Also wdym shiva 😭😭 the term is "Brahman" for the ultimate Father but nobody uses that term because we just say "God" in whetever language we soeak. Like if i were spesking..."

Brahmin is super different thats a job title.

God is the english word, when i soeak english, i refer to the heavenly father of any religion

You do not again other religions have different words as i listed above. They might mean different versions of God but they do mean different religions. You would not be making this argument in islamic countries

Austin wrote: "You do not again other religions have different words as i listed above. They might mean different versions of God but they do mean different religions. You would not be making this argument in isl..."

Yeah because the islamic nations woukd write in arabic and they use Allah for like any God because they do not say God.

Also they are islamic nations so we know it is islam
America isnt a chrisitan ciuntry, legally.
Britain is a chrisitian country, legally.

Lol mini that is backward the British are less christian and more islamic than the US

That proves my point different words have different meanings. Islamic is Allah and Christian is God

Austin wrote: "Lol mini that is backward the British are less christian and more islamic than the US"

Legal, austin. Legal. Facts dont care about how you feel. Britian is christian. Legal facts

Austin wrote: "That proves my point different words have different meanings. Islamic is Allah and Christian is God"

Theyre different langauged. In islam god has like 400 names

No, I don't think America is a Christian country. We were founded on religious freedom and diversity, and though many of our ideas/texts are inspired by Christian ideas and stuff, I don't think that's the point.

Also, saying that America is a Christian country leaves out a whole lot of people, making them feel like we're not as valid as Americans. My ancestors fought for America in the revolutionary war, I and my parents have lived here our whole lives, and I'm just as valid as an American as any Christian.

Also, the "In God we Trust" thing is awkward for me because I do not trust in any god, so I'm not included in the "we" - does that make me not an American?? I know it's probably too late to change that, but still

I don't think a state being one religion excludes other people who are not of that religion. It is just ackonwlegding that christinaity played and does play a huge role in american culture and to not direspect thst, then its okay

MidnightButterfly wrote: "I don't think a state being one religion excludes other people who are not of that religion. It is just ackonwlegding that christinaity played and does play a huge role in american culture and to n..."

Well, I guess, but calling it just a Christian country is different than just acknowledging Christianity's role.

Well it was founded as one and is still christian majority. Like i wouldnt go to the UAE and say well there are people from all religions here and in the main cities, the majority of people arent even arab. That doesnt mean it isnt an islamic country, it is.

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Well it was founded as one and is still christian majority. Like i wouldnt go to the UAE and say well there are people from all religions here and in the main cities, the majority of people arent e..."

Okay, fair point

@Austin the Arab Christians use the word Allah for God too. Here you go,
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&u...
اللهُ

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

this is the arabic bible.

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Austin wrote: "That proves my point different words have different meanings. Islamic is Allah and Christian is God"

Theyre different langauged. In islam god has like 400 names"

no it's not like that.

maryam┊ مريم wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Austin wrote: "That proves my point different words have different meanings. Islamic is Allah and Christian is God"

Theyre different langauged. In islam god has like 400 ..."

Okay i was exagerrating.

There are 99 names of God and if you memorise them all you go to heaven. I used to know them guess im going to heaven

MidnightButterfly wrote: "maryam┊ مريم wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Austin wrote: "That proves my point different words have different meanings. Islamic is Allah and Christian is God"

Theyre different langauged. In is..."

anyways the first pillar is shahada. everything else comes after that

For those cinfused, shahada is the declaration of faith saying you beleive in one God, Allah, and his messenger Muhammad

i'm answering the prompt: to a certain degree, yes, america was founded with (protestant) chrisitan ideas. but mainly, things like the declaration and constitution were influenced by the enlightenment. of course, religion is still there, and there's evidence for that, but primarily, it was enlightenment phiosophers such as hobbes.

Hobbes was a traditional conservative thinker saying that a strong state is needed otherwise we all descend into chaos, without a strong state, life would be nasty, brutish and short.
He was writing abiut the french revolution and how bad it was lol

Early americans did not like hobbes as he was essentially well. He was a cinservative and the americans were liberals, lol. Hobbes srood for monarchy and doubted human nature as altruistic, and said revolution, under any circumastances essentially, was stupidity.

So yeah, not very liked in america.

Locke on the other hand, liberal thinker, fsther of liberalism and all that, was very much liked

I think it was founded BY Christians, but it isn't a Christian country.. when Americans immigrated and revolting, one of the main reasons was quite literally to have freedom to choose their own religion. Therefore no matter who or what religion supposedly founded it, America should be neutral for all religions.
I realize most of the documents and such ARE based off God and religion, but a thing to take into account is God was what everyone looked to to hold their morals back then. The reason people were upstanding citizens and honorable and such were because they believed in God and that you needed to have good morals to get into Heaven. Times have changed and evolved, and not everyone longer uses God as a reason for good morals, and America is still a free country for religion. All religion.

Barnette wrote: "No, I don't think America is a Christian country. We were founded on religious freedom and diversity, and though many of our ideas/texts are inspired by Christian ideas and stuff, I don't think tha..."

well when we are talking about the founding of America as a nation. Yes it was founded to be very exclusionary. America was explicitly anti-monarchy and anti-catholic. It was explicitly an experiment done so by White Anglo Saxon protestants. Other groups were not necessarily seen as part of that deceleration. As seen by the treatment of the natives and the eventual civil war over slavery.

So for example a Gay secular humanist doesn't really exist until at the earliest the 1970's two hundred years later. Far removed from the culture and traditions of the founding of the nation.