The Debate Club discussion

I may not have phrased the title well, but this is something I wonder about a lot, so I wondered what you all think!

Reminder to stay respectful ^^

I mean technically grammatically no 😂 cause they refer to multiple people lol

I mean when you do not know the gender of the person, just generally, id say "so i am going to be meeting my new boss, im scared to meet them" for examole idk

Yes. Because when you don't know someone's gender, you usually default to they. Like a car driver you don't see. Or a thief or criminal you don't get a good look at. I've heard my conservative, right wing parents say that multiple times 🤣 And they don't believe in gender identity

"they" was the word of the year in 2016 😂😭

Alexandria wrote: "Yes. Because when you don't know someone's gender, you usually default to they. Like a car driver you don't see. Or a thief or criminal you don't get a good look at. I've heard my conservative, rig..."

I guess that's true loll but it's still not technically grammatically correct

❀Em°❀⋆.ೃ࿔*:･ wrote: "Alexandria wrote: "Yes. Because when you don't know someone's gender, you usually default to they. Like a car driver you don't see. Or a thief or criminal you don't get a good look at. I've heard m..."

It is grammatically correct though.
The use of "they" as a singular pronoun has a long history, dating back to the 1300s, and has been used to refer to someone whose gender was unknown or irrelevant to the context. It's been used in literature. Most notably in the medieval romance "William and the Werewolf". It's also been used by Geoffrey Chaucer and Emily Dickinson. Using "they" in a gender-neutral way isn't a modern thing. It's existed for centuries. But at some point people got hung up on language and taught that it was only for multiple people and never for just one person. That's not true at all. There are many historical instances of it being used. Examples of the singular "they" being used to describe someone features as early as 1386 in Geoffrey Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales and also in famous literary works like Shakespeare's Hamlet in 1599.

https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singu...

In my opinion, people get too hung up on "they" being "grammatically incorrect". There are a lot of things many consider grammatically incorrect but hat we still do. A lot of people say to never start a sentence with a conjunction. Things like "but", "because", "and", etc. because they believe it to be grammatically incorrect. Doesn't mean we don't do it all the time. I know I do. One word isn't a complete, proper sentence, so it's grammatically incorrect. But many of us write one word sentences all the time.

they is definitely grammatically correct. gender debate aside, literally who has not used they to refer to a single person? if i don't know someone's gender, or don't want to reveal it for privacy reasons or smth, i'll default to they. everyone does. like on all the field trip forms parents have to sign for school it uses they to refer to the student in question.

My form said she lol but i went to an all girls

Alexandria wrote: "❀Em°❀⋆.ೃ࿔*:･ wrote: "Alexandria wrote: "Yes. Because when you don't know someone's gender, you usually default to they. Like a car driver you don't see. Or a thief or criminal you don't get a good ..."

idk lol I just think it's one of those things everyone does that isn't actually grammatically correct (and i'm not talking about pronouns or anything, just using it for one person). But I'm not exactly an expert on grammar 👀

True story. When I was a student teacher (a few decades ago), I made the mistake of raising my hand during a faculty meeting and correcting the department head because she used the “he” pronoun to represent both boys and girls (it was a letter going home to parents and she had asked the staff to note it.) I spoke up and let her know that we were learning in college that “he or she” (or even “they”) should be used as singular forms so that women were not subjugated under male pronouns. She was sooo angry with me that after the meeting ended, she told me to stay and then proceeded to chew me out for bringing up such nonsense. She said that had I even been a first year teacher, she might have given my opinion a scrap of respect. I never forgot her anger and I absolutely smile today thinking about how crazy she must feel with the advancement of plural pronouns replacing singular pronouns and people even choosing which pronouns they’d personally prefer. It’s utterly satisfying and redeeming to that kid I once was who raised a hand to help with an editing suggestion, but then was smacked down. 😊

Gene wrote: "True story. When I was a student teacher (a few decades ago), I made the mistake of raising my hand during a faculty meeting and correcting the department head because she used the “he” pronoun to ..."

dang that's crazy...lmao tho i've always preferred they to he/she even before i knew what queer people were bc i personally think it sounds obnoxious to say "he or she" or "his or hers" every sentence. just use they it sounds so much smoother

Sai :) wrote: "Gene wrote: "True story. When I was a student teacher (a few decades ago), I made the mistake of raising my hand during a faculty meeting and correcting the department head because she used the “he..."

Exactly. My (Christian) homeschooling LA curriculum always uses he/she instead of just using they. It annoys the heck out of me because it feels purposeful and spiteful somehow 😭😅 because like literally it sounds so much smoother and more efficient to say they

uhh as a person who uses they/them pronouns i would like to say hiii i exist (and also to pls stop saying our pronouns are gRaMmAtIcAlLy InCoRrEcT bcuz it makes us sad 😢)

l i z [save the sharks❗] ˖𓍢ִִ໋🌊🦈˚˖𓍢ִ✧˚. wrote: "uhh as a person who uses they/them pronouns i would like to say hiii i exist (and also to pls stop saying our pronouns are gRaMmAtIcAlLy InCoRrEcT bcuz it makes us sad 😢)"

THIS

I use she/they and it makes me sad too 😭

ikr i don't think they realize how taxing it can be on someone's mental health to js hear constantly like

'you're brainwashed by the left'
'you're going to hell'
'you'll grow out of it'
'i care more about grammar than i do about you'
'i would rather listen to one verse that may or may not be misinterpreted than the human standing in front of me'
'are you sure??'
'you'll never be a real (wo)man'
'it's just a phase'

yk?

sorry off topic tho 💔

l i z [save the sharks❗] ˖𓍢ִִ໋🌊🦈˚˖𓍢ִ✧˚. wrote: "uhh as a person who uses they/them pronouns i would like to say hiii i exist (and also to pls stop saying our pronouns are gRaMmAtIcAlLy InCoRrEcT bcuz it makes us sad 😢)"

Real. I use she/they and feel the same way.

l i z [save the sharks❗] ˖𓍢ִִ໋🌊🦈˚˖𓍢ִ✧˚. wrote: "ikr i don't think they realize how taxing it can be on someone's mental health to js hear constantly like

'you're brainwashed by the left'
'you're going to hell'
'you'll grow out of it'
'i care mo..."

Literally 😭

l i z [save the sharks❗] ˖𓍢ִִ໋🌊🦈˚˖𓍢ִ✧˚. wrote: "sorry off topic tho 💔"

It's ok

and its not like they say "we" when speaking abt theirself. so yeah i think its gramatically correct. when youre talking abt a character in a book youll probably say 'they' at one point or another, even tho its one person. or if you dont know someones gender, you say 'they'. its natural. like talking abt someone you cant see.

grammatically, i think it's incorrect, but like @gia said it's not like they're referring to themselves as multiple people
if you're going to meet someone new and you don't know their gender, you might say "i'm really excited to meet them!" same concept here, i guess. i don't have a problem with it because i have a lot of friends who prefer they/them pronouns, and i think whatever makes someone feel more confident and comfortable with themselves is fine. it's not hurting you to say "they" instead of "he/she" when talking about someone

I wish there were a thumbs up button. I’d use it for your comments. 😊

Alexandria wrote: "❀Em°❀⋆.ೃ࿔*:･ wrote: "Alexandria wrote: "Yes. Because when you don't know someone's gender, you usually default to they. Like a car driver you don't see. Or a thief or criminal you don't get a good ..."

No. The usage that you mentioned is only English.
For example, I can't find the usage of French Ils/Elles, Italian Essi/Loro or Latin Es/Eius mentioning one singular person.

♡Kelly♡ wrote: "NO!
For a male it is he/him
For a female it is she/her
There is no They/them when talking about one person!"

Why not? What would we call someone who is neither then?

♡Kelly♡ wrote: "NO!
For a male it is he/him
For a female it is she/her
There is no They/them when talking about one person!"

Why, though? There are no set rules for this. What if a "female" person is very uncomfortable with she/her pronouns, have you heard of gender dysphoria?

No!

.

Why not?

Legolas (He is risen!!!!!!!!!!!) wrote: "No!"

Why do you say that?

Ok idk about any of y'all but I've always thought they/them pronouns are super cool. My sister had some friends that went by them and when I first heard about them I was like "you can do that? That's so cool..." and I don't even know why. They've always been fascinating and appealing to me 😭

I say yes because even before I knew about how people use it at their main pronouns, i used they/them when I don’t know who they are! I also find he or she in sayings a little pointless because of that reason and also imo it’s just shorter to say they/them. It’s just a gender neutral term and I like it tbh, all of my friends and I have set our standard pronouns to call people they/them unless people say otherwise (like me correcting them with he/him)

Sage wrote: "Ok idk about any of y'all but I've always thought they/them pronouns are super cool. My sister had some friends that went by them and when I first heard about them I was like "you can do that? That..."

RIGHT?? Personally I don't go by they/them, but they're SO cool

➶ ｡˚ ° Pierce Samuel ˋ°•*⁀➷ wrote: "Sage wrote: "Ok idk about any of y'all but I've always thought they/them pronouns are super cool. My sister had some friends that went by them and when I first heard about them I was like "you can ..."

I'm trying them out here but not irl cause uh my family and friends would murder me? <3 but they're SO COOL

Sage wrote: "Ok idk about any of y'all but I've always thought they/them pronouns are super cool. My sister had some friends that went by them and when I first heard about them I was like "you can do that? That..."

Yessss

Sage wrote: "➶ ｡˚ ° Pierce Samuel ˋ°•*⁀➷ wrote: "Sage wrote: "Ok idk about any of y'all but I've always thought they/them pronouns are super cool. My sister had some friends that went by them and when I first h..."

BAHAHHA real, but I'll be sure to respect that for you!! And do you want me to call you sage or you main accounts name?

➶ ｡˚ ° Pierce Samuel ˋ°•*⁀➷ wrote: "Sage wrote: "➶ ｡˚ ° Pierce Samuel ˋ°•*⁀➷ wrote: "Sage wrote: "Ok idk about any of y'all but I've always thought they/them pronouns are super cool. My sister had some friends that went by them and w..."

Let's stick with sage on this group <3

And thankss

Sage wrote: "➶ ｡˚ ° Pierce Samuel ˋ°•*⁀➷ wrote: "Sage wrote: "➶ ｡˚ ° Pierce Samuel ˋ°•*⁀➷ wrote: "Sage wrote: "Ok idk about any of y'all but I've always thought they/them pronouns are super cool. My sister had ..."

Okay!!

yesterday when i was checking out at the grocery store, i accidentally dropped my entire wallet, and the coins went everywhere! 😩 luckly, the cashier was super nice, and they helped me pick all the dropped coins up.

moral of the story, they/them pronouns are grammatically correct for one person.

I just wanna say, my ELA book, "The Complete Middle School Study Guide: Everything You Need to Ace English Language Arts" classifies they/them pronouns as singular and plural!

(It also recognizes the xe/xem pronouns and uses them in a few examples, but they are in no way there as a sort of propaganda or forced on you, those pronouns are just there as subtle representation and you're not forced to use them, same with the singular they/them pronouns). :)

Barnette wrote: "I just wanna say, my ELA book, "The Complete Middle School Study Guide: Everything You Need to Ace English Language Arts" classifies they/them pronouns as singular and plural!

(It also recognizes..."

Thats amazing!!

Hazel wrote: "Barnette wrote: "I just wanna say, my ELA book, "The Complete Middle School Study Guide: Everything You Need to Ace English Language Arts" classifies they/them pronouns as singular and plural!

(I..."

Yes!! As a homeschooled kid who rarely gets that representation, it made me really happy

Barnette wrote: "Hazel wrote: "Barnette wrote: "I just wanna say, my ELA book, "The Complete Middle School Study Guide: Everything You Need to Ace English Language Arts" classifies they/them pronouns as singular an..."

Reall

yes it is grammatically correct, and should be what you use for someone’s pronouns if you don’t know them!

alex wrote: "yes it is grammatically correct, and should be what you use for someone’s pronouns if you don’t know them!"

Agreed! I've gotten into a habit of referring to people as "they" until I know their preferred pronouns, and ask their preferred pronouns if we interact a lot/become friends.

@Ruthie I'd love to see you on this topic!

Barnette ⋆˙⟡ {single pringle version} wrote: "alex wrote: "yes it is grammatically correct, and should be what you use for someone’s pronouns if you don’t know them!"

Agreed! I've gotten into a habit of referring to people as "they" until I k..."

Exactly! I call people "they/them" quite a lot of I don't know their pronouns.

For those of you who say they/them pronouns are not correct for a singular person, how come credible educational sources use they/them pronouns for one person when you don't know their gender? My math curriculum, my ELA curriculum, my friend's biology curriculum, as just some examples, refer to people as "they" in examples when you don't know their gender. Even my ELA curriculum explicitly says that they/them can be used for one person and be grammatically correct. I'm not using these as sources, I'm just asking why scientifically credible sources would use they/them pronouns if it was not grammatically correct. Grammar is not subjective, there are rules and outlines that explain what is grammatically correct and what isn't, so you can't just say that in your opinion it is not correct. These curriculums I'm talking about are secular and science based, and while my ELA one has small LGBT+ representation, none of them are explicitly LGBT+ friendly or spreading any "propaganda" like some people might say - they are just teaching what is scientifically and grammatically correct.

How come it's only the Christian homeschooling curriculums that I've seen that say they/them pronouns are not correct for one person, and they use "he or she" every single time they don't know the person's gender? That's also grammatically correct but it's just so much simpler to say "they". And Christian homeschool curriculums (at least most of them) are NOT scientifically based and if it's a religious curriculum then it's obviously biased.

So why are scientific educational curriculums saying this is correct, and biased religious ones are saying it's not, and which is true?

Is there any one here currently that believes that they/them pronouns are grammatically incorrect for a singular person? Could you explain your reasoning? (Not judging lol just asking/prompting!)

Also, what are everyone's opinions on neopronouns?