The Catholic Book Club discussion

1. Use this thread to share observations while reading, or to discuss items not covered by other questions.

Tomorrow i will reply some of these statements 🤔.

I started the book expecting to take a long time reading it (due to its length, and the fact that demonic possessions are not something I like to read about).

But once started it was hard to put down! The plot had so many ramifications, and specially I liked the characters very much: Serafian and Namono, above all, and the Emperor too.

I know I've been AWOL from this group, but I just found my way back to Goodreads, and this is a book I've been wanting to read.
Apparently I'm just in time! Looking forward to it.

Too few of the books selected here are available to read... fortunately, this is the case ... and I enjoyed the reading very much. :)

*available in my country I've meant

I had forgotten many of the details of the plot and, thank you for reminding me of them :-)

Fonch wrote: "I had forgotten many of the details of the plot and, thank you for reminding me of them :-)"

I could say the same thing, my friend!

Andrew wrote: "Fonch wrote: "I had forgotten many of the details of the plot and, thank you for reminding me of them :-)"

I could say the same thing, my friend!"

My memory isn't as good as it used to be :-(-

I feel that we do not really get to know the real Thierry in the book, we get only a few glimpses of his true character, because he spends most of the story possessed. I would like to have get to know him better.

Maybe that happens in book 2?

Mariangel wrote: "I feel that we do not really get to know the real Thierry in the book, we get only a few glimpses of his true character, because he spends most of the story possessed. I would like to have get to k..."

Yes, I think it's one of the best parts of the sequel. Especially after what happened to him at the end of book 1

Emmanuel wrote: "Mariangel wrote: "I feel that we do not really get to know the real Thierry in the book, we get only a few glimpses of his true character, because he spends most of the story possessed. I would lik..."

The "road trip" scenes with Thierry and Namono in the sequel were some of my favorites to write!

Mariangel wrote: "I started the book expecting to take a long time reading it (due to its length, and the fact that demonic possessions are not something I like to read about).

But once started it was hard to put ..."

For people who are interested in reading more about the theology of exorcism as expressed in the book, I highly recommend "Hostage to the Devil" by the late Fr. Malachi Martin.

I think Martin did a better job explaining the phenomenology of exorcism than anyone else, and I leaned heavily on his ideas in this book.

Madeleine wrote: "I know I've been AWOL from this group, but I just found my way back to Goodreads, and this is a book I've been wanting to read.
Apparently I'm just in time! Looking forward to it."

Welcome back, Madeleine!

May I also recommend that anyone who enjoys this particular "flavor" of Catholic science fiction check out Incensepunk Magazine.

https://www.incensepunk.com/

It is free, and the magazine publishes at least one original short story every month.

Incensepunk is the movement/sub-genre that I identify with the most. Basically, we are trying to tell stories that incorporate faith without becoming "preachy." We are drawn particularly to stories that grapple with real issues of faith and doubt, where religion is not necessarily the main focus, but is taken seriously as an important part of the characters' lives.

Regarding Sci-Fi which incorporates faith, a few months ago we read in the club Voyage to Alpha Centauri. Have you read it, Andrew?

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...

Mariangel wrote: "Regarding Sci-Fi which incorporates faith, a few months ago we read in the club Voyage to Alpha Centauri. Have you read it, Andrew?

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group......"

I have not, though i very much enjoyed O'Brien's Sojourners books.

Le phareAndrew wrote: "Mariangel wrote: "Regarding Sci-Fi which incorporates faith, a few months ago we read in the club Voyage to Alpha Centauri. Have you read it, Andrew?

https://www.goodreads.com/topi..."
I loved Father Elijah's saga of the Last Days Father Elijah: An Apocalypse Michael D. O'Brien, but both the lighthouse Le phare and among the rivers of Babylon Au bord des fleuves de Babylone disappointed me a lot and, from what I could see from the discussion of Voyage to Alpha Centauri Voyage of Alpha Centauri, I think I would have been disappointed as well and, mind you, I was the one who proposed that reading in The Catholic Book Club. That was if the discussion was very good.
By the way, a new novel by Michael D. has come out. O'Brien https://ignatius.com/letter-to-the-fu...

Andrew wrote: "May I also recommend that anyone who enjoys this particular "flavor" of Catholic science fiction check out Incensepunk Magazine.

https://www.incensepunk.com/

It is free, and the magazine publishe..."
Mr. Gillsmith, I shall follow this link with great interest.

Andrew wrote: "May I also recommend that anyone who enjoys this particular "flavor" of Catholic science fiction check out Incensepunk Magazine.

https://www.incensepunk.com/

It is free, and the magazine publishe..."
I have subscribed to Mr. Gillsmith's link I regret not being able to contribute money so I have chosen the free option, but I am not well off money and I cannot contribute, but the publications seem interesting. I will inform you.

Fonch wrote: "Andrew wrote: "May I also recommend that anyone who enjoys this particular "flavor" of Catholic science fiction check out Incensepunk Magazine.

https://www.incensepunk.com/

It is free, and the ma..."

Please dont regret not donating!!! The magazine js meant to be free.

We are working on getting some funding for it, mainly so that we can pay authors professional rates.

Andrew wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Andrew wrote: "May I also recommend that anyone who enjoys this particular "flavor" of Catholic science fiction check out Incensepunk Magazine.

https://www.incensepunk.com/

It is fr..."
Hopefully you will be lucky and get another source of resources. The articles seem enormously interesting and very good. I'll try to keep an eye on them from time to time.

Andrew wrote: "May I also recommend that anyone who enjoys this particular "flavor" of Catholic science fiction check out Incensepunk Magazine.

https://www.incensepunk.com/

It is free, and the magazine publishe..."

I don't know if this genre applies to "Dark Legacies" by Y. Kordov, but I tried to read "The Hand of God" and had to stop when the girl ate the meat of the mutated rabbit. The robot friends she made at that shop were very disturbing, too. I'm glad "The Destroyed Vineyard" doesn't go that far, even if "A Cloud of Unknowing" is sometimes very dark. But the humour and the light of faith are always there to mitigate the darkness. I think "Dark Legacies" just lived up to its name.

It seems that avoiding being "preachy" is the way for us today, especially when writing for a more mature audience. Mons. Benson already did that in "The Lord of the World". It's interesting when you have more than one POV and the faithless one can be in contrast to the faithful one. You can argue on both sides and show the psychology of each one. You may plant a seed in the soul of a sceptic reader.

Emmanuel wrote: "Andrew wrote: "May I also recommend that anyone who enjoys this particular "flavor" of Catholic science fiction check out Incensepunk Magazine.

https://www.incensepunk.com/

It is free, and the ma..."

Very much so!!! Yuval is one of the "founders" of the movement. More than that, he has become one of my best friends.

For context, he is Jewish but has a deep love and admiration for the Catholic Church.

You may want to read his novella Orders of Magnitude. It sells the story if Samuel, a Catholic Space Marine investigating a dangerous situation on a lunar colony.

I'm be curious if anyone read my homage to Gene Wolfe (The Venerable Wolfe Part 1) in Incensepunk Magazine. I just finished Part 2, which sbould be appearing in an upcoming issue.

I've just found it: https://www.incensepunk.com/p/the-ven...

I will manage to read soon 🤔.

On monday i will speak about my experiencia with Gene Wolfe.

Fonch wrote: "On monday i will speak about my experiencia with Gene Wolfe."

OOOHH!!!!! I'm looking forward to this!

Part 2 of this story is a "trial" of Wolfe, conducted by Severian, Tolkien, and Chesterton. It is lighthearted in tone, but (I hope) serious in its theology.

I apologize i am writing with my cellular. For this reason my english is worst besides my mobile checks the words and for this reason appears experiencia and not experience. I am sorry for the mistake. On monday i will reply to this question. I am very interested in Gene Wolfe and i have written to the Professor Manuel Alfonseca about Gene Wolfe.

Fonch wrote: "I apologize i am writing with my cellular. For this reason my english is worst besides my mobile checks the words and for this reason appears experiencia and not experience. I am sorry for the mist..."

I can't apologise, but I'm ashamed to say I have to use Grammarly to write on Goodreads. It does help, but their AI is obsessed with correcting my Latinisms. I don't know what it would become if I wrote on my smartphone.

Another interesting thing about Incensepunk is the possibility of speculating about future technologies and their relationship to the Church. Modern prelates seem to be more willing to adhere to new inventions. For example, I could see Pope Leo XIV approving the use of noetics implants, but not St. Pius X (at least for some decades). I don't know if I would myself adhere to those implants, but I could see them becoming more common each day, as in the novel, especially in the West and in countries as Japan.

The hyperloop would be a lot more welcome. However, if it were to be brought to Brazil, I bet there would be people trying to ride its outside part and dying horribly.

Emmanuel wrote: "Another interesting thing about Incensepunk is the possibility of speculating about future technologies and their relationship to the Church. Modern prelates seem to be more willing to adhere to ne..."

Brain interface technology is going to challenge the Church, for sure. It has wonderful potential in healing and treatment of persistent neurological disorders. But it also could usher in the greatest tyranny we have ever seen.

I pray that the Church is paying close attention to this research and developing its response.

Emmanuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "I apologize i am writing with my cellular. For this reason my english is worst besides my mobile checks the words and for this reason appears experiencia and not experience. I am sorr..."

Thank you for your understanding Emmanuel. The corrector of the mobile jumped at me and changed part of my words from English to Spanish. Now that I'm in the office I can answer some posts that couldn't be answered this week. On Saturday I was with my classmates from school. We were celebrating our graduation and I would have liked to talk to you about you and about this discussion that I am enjoying very much. This is what he told Professor Manuel Alfonseca in our correspondence.

Andrew wrote: "I'm be curious if anyone read my homage to Gene Wolfe (The Venerable Wolfe Part 1) in Incensepunk Magazine. I just finished Part 2, which sbould be appearing in an upcoming issue."

Gene Wolfe is the writer I like great, but even though I know he tries he's good. I can't get to like it at all. It is also true that he may have read his most difficult books, which are those of the Latro trilogy https://www.goodreads.com/series/4945... I was going to fail his book Soldier of the Mist, but the ending seemed so good to me that I approved it. My friend Pablo J. Ginés and the historian Manuel Alejandro Rodríguez de la Peña discussed him in an interview. What Wolfe intends to do is to show us the cruelty of the Ancient Age before the arrival of Jesus Christ and, his other saga of the sun tries to tell us about a universe in which Jesus Christ would not have been incarnated. Curiously, I liked the saga of the sun more than the three of Latro's trilogy. The "Soldier of Arete" made me very sad it started very well, but after the main quest was completed the story plummeted and it became more difficult for me.
"Soldier of Sidon" never attracted me and I never understood why Io disappeared from history. The novel of "The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories and Other Stories" is one of the strangest things I have ever seen in my life. With all Wolfe that I am obsessed with especially the Latro saga although I did not like it. The ending I would have given him would have been this Latro would have traveled to all the ends of the ancient world and since he does not feel comfortable in his native Rome he would go to Persia and, he would be involved in the story of Esther being requested by Haman, Mordecai and, Esther would finally take the side of the Jews and, he would help save them and, as a reward, the Jews would take him to Palestine either Zerubbabel or, Nehemiah would enter the Temple of Jerusalem and, the curse imposed by the gods would be annulled and Latro would become a proto-Christian character.
However, it seems that Esther's story happened before the Persian wars but it could be done by telling it in the form of a flashback. He would also tell of the death of Xerxes at the hands of his Uncle Artabanus. Wolfe's story was made for Finnish writer Mika Waltari(he would have done wonders with this material with that story and that plot). It is also true that I am very unfair because Wolfe (who was a disciple of Jack Vance) does not dedicate himself to historical novels but to science fiction. But there are writers who move like a fish in water in this field such as Poul Anderson, Fred Saberhagen, or Michael Flynn. The same thing happens to me with Wolfe as with Tim Powers(despite the fact that Joseph Pearce recommended the latter). I feel sad about the fact that I didn't like it. All in all, I have the feeling that I still have some books to read to him and I would love to read his novel of the The Knight and The Wizard, which is more fantasy.

Andrew wrote: "Fonch wrote: "On monday i will speak about my experiencia with Gene Wolfe."

OOOHH!!!!! I'm looking forward to this!

Part 2 of this story is a "trial" of Wolfe, conducted by Severian, Tolkien, and..."
An excellent court by the way ;-).

Emmanuel wrote: "Another interesting thing about Incensepunk is the possibility of speculating about future technologies and their relationship to the Church. Modern prelates seem to be more willing to adhere to ne..."

Which takes us back to the Cyberpunk genre to William Gibson's "Neuromancer", or novels such as those of Philip K. Dick. There is a transhumanist impulse that I think has been denounced in previous posts.
I have a role-playing friend who really likes this genre and also the The Call of Cthulhu #Cthulhu novels by H.P. H.P. Lovecraft. I've always been more of Robert E. Howard who is less weird and, closer to the sword and witchcraft which I like more.

Fonch wrote: "Andrew wrote: "I'm be curious if anyone read my homage to Gene Wolfe (The Venerable Wolfe Part 1) in Incensepunk Magazine. I just finished Part 2, which sbould be appearing in an upcoming issue."

..."

Wolfe may be my favorite writer, in terms of pure craft. He is like Borges in his intricacy and complexity. It sometimes feels like every line has multiple layers of meaning.

That said--I totally get why some don't like him. His worlds are so strange and his characters tend to be somewhat unrelatable. Someone said about Wolfe, "you can't read a Gene Wolfe story, you can only re-read one." That certainly isn't everyone's cup of tea.

He is also one of those writers in English who, I suspect, doesn't translate particularly well into other languages.

Fonch wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Fonch wrote: "On monday i will speak about my experiencia with Gene Wolfe."

OOOHH!!!!! I'm looking forward to this!

Part 2 of this story is a "trial" of Wolfe, conducted by Severia..."

I had an inordinate amount of fun with this story! It should be out on Incensepunk Magazine fairly soon.

Emmanuel wrote: "Another interesting thing about Incensepunk is the possibility of speculating about future technologies and their relationship to the Church. Modern prelates seem to be more willing to adhere to ne..."

Over the weekend, I learned that our new Pope Leo XIV once lived in my town (St. Louis, Missouri). The church where he served was deconsecrated and is now for sale.

How wonderful would it be to buy it and create a Catholic writers retreat center? I am contact this archdiocese this week about it to see if they would support a public campaign to do this.

Andrew wrote: "Emmanuel wrote: "Another interesting thing about Incensepunk is the possibility of speculating about future technologies and their relationship to the Church. Modern prelates seem to be more willin..."

Not only a retreat center, I think they need a whole religious order, spiritual direction included, and full Ignatian retreats. Writers are strange creatures indeed. They have a tendency to be as lonely as hermits and as prideful as Hollywood actors (no offence, it's a general disease).

That said, I've read the short story of Venerable Wolfe and was more surprised by the actual canonisation of a writer than by the AI saints. And the joke about the perpetual venerableness of St. Bede will always be amusing to me.

Andrew wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Andrew wrote: "I'm be curious if anyone read my homage to Gene Wolfe (The Venerable Wolfe Part 1) in Incensepunk Magazine. I just finished Part 2, which sbould be appearing in an upco..."

I was taken aback by the theme of an order of torturers in his most famous work. I would never have guessed he was a Catholic until I read his article on Wikipedia. It seems to be too dark for my tastes, but I want to give it a shot after reading that short story

I was thinking about the Pruning and the hundreds of millions of moral simulations, and was reminded about how dozens of indie authors had their books stolen for training AI a couple of weeks ago. Jon del Arroz was one of them. It seems they can already reproduce an author's style and vocabulary. It's becoming even scarier.

Someone heard about that creepy painter robot lady, Ai-da?

Emmanuel wrote: "I was thinking about the Pruning and the hundreds of millions of moral simulations, and was reminded about how dozens of indie authors had their books stolen for training AI a couple of weeks ago. ..."

Mine was stolen, too.

I'm not 100% sure how l feel about it. I suppose i should be angry, but I'm not seeing any actual harm.

I guess there is a lot more to understand about the characters in the second book. Dr. Channing is shown as a very dark person here - even darker-. He reminds me of the experiments of Dr. Mengele in WWII.

Andrew wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Fonch wrote: "On monday i will speak about my experiencia with Gene Wolfe."

OOOHH!!!!! I'm looking forward to this!

Part 2 of this story is a "trial" of Wolfe, conduc..."
Do not believe the origin of novels or, their relaunch began because newspapers to gain readers began to ask writers to publish stories in their newspapers, it was even paid for extension, the more you wrote, the more you were paid. That is why most nineteenth-century novels have pages to spare. There was even a law in France on this subject, the Faloux law. I like that this noble tradition is recovered.

Andrew wrote: "Emmanuel wrote: "Another interesting thing about Incensepunk is the possibility of speculating about future technologies and their relationship to the Church. Modern prelates seem to be more willin..."

Hopefully you can achieve such a laudable goal.

By the way, I didn't say it, but it should have been said that Gene Wolfe corresponded with J.R.R. Tolkien and even wrote an essay on the literary work of J.R.R. Tolkien. It seems that Wolfe who due to his surname had a great fascination for wolves and asked him about the origin of the word direwolf and, J.R.R. Tolkien. One of the influences may have been the novel "The House of the Wolfings" by William Morris. Also as a philologist, J.R.R. Tolkien spoke to him about the origin of the word. PS. Unfortunately I did not get William Morris' novel, I don't know if it was translated into Spanish :-(.

Emmanuel wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Andrew wrote: "I'm be curious if anyone read my homage to Gene Wolfe (The Venerable Wolfe Part 1) in Incensepunk Magazine. I just finished Part 2, which sbould be appea..."

I recognize that Gene Wolfe has very good ideas, just as an essay by Pars Lagerkvist must have its point: to write a novel with a torturer as the protagonist in a world that has not experienced the incarnation of Christ and in which compassion is conspicuous by its absence. Although I may not have appreciated it, both Severian and Latro are two great literary creations.

Tania wrote: "I guess there is a lot more to understand about the characters in the second book. Dr. Channing is shown as a very dark person here - even darker-. He reminds me of the experiments of Dr. Mengele i..."

A constant is the mad scientist with a certain tendency to moral insanity who with his actions can cause the destruction of the world. However, as said in another post, I am concerned about more millionaires like Bill Gates who think that by putting the money and, because they have a lot of money, that enables them to decide what is best for humanity. A version of this would be Mr. Hammond from Jurassic Park pitying the scientific errors of the novel, but the moral works as George Bailey would say of "The Greatest Gift: A Christmas Tale" "Potter doesn't sell, Potter buys". That is why I became a Chestertonian G.K. Chesterton because he distrusts millionaires with globalist tendencies. In Spain, Mr. Esteban Collantes, the millionaire of the nineteenth century, said that "If you were poor, it was because you were stupid." Many should ask themselves how some millionaires managed to become millionaires and let them tell us the true story, not the official hagiography transmitted to us by their spokesmen.
For personal reasons I was studying (of course with the most lively repulsion) experiments like those that Tania says, I remember Voronoff, Tacksagee and, that wonderful novel "The Sea and Poison" by Shūsaku Endō, the terrible experiments that the Japanese did with American prisoners. PS. There was a Swede who was dedicated to doing sterilizations and eugenics. In Japan, in order to reduce the birth rate after the war, this task was entrusted to Dr. Ozino.